Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: Alternatives to the current command points system  (Read 8919 times)

Erebos

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 68
    • View Profile
Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2012, 12:27:12 AM »

As for saying Command Points is on par with allowing an AI to cheat... I have that hard to believe. The AI is simply using the same AI your own fleet will use sans-orders if I'm not mistaken.

Just a bit of nitpickery: the enemy AI will attempt to capture objectives; on the other hand, the default state for your own fleet is seek & destroy, so they won't make an effort to capture objectives without being ordered to. This is as it should be. I doubt the enemy AI is restricted by command points, but surely it wouldn't make the game unduly difficult if it cheated a little in this regard.
Logged

Zapier

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 216
    • View Profile
Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2012, 12:39:59 AM »

Then I am mistaken! But, unless Alex confirms that the enemy is bound by CP too (which very well could be, but I certainly doubt that) then it still could be. :P That's why I think I'll still propose free CP costs for capture/assault/defend at least... unless that's been tested, discussed and/or tossed.
Logged

BonhommeCarnaval

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 95
    • View Profile
Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2012, 08:44:36 AM »

Like I said many times already, I don't want to play this as an RTS and I won't regardless of CPs or not. I'm looking for space Mount and Blade not space Dragon Age where you have to babysit everyone. I much rather focus on the ship I'm flying because it will inevitably be my favorite.

The problem is not me wanting to give many specific orders, it's the command points themselves. As an example, if he were to remove command points and have it so your ships decide by themselves if they want to defend/assault something or search and destroy, I would be fine with it! Yes, even though that is much LESS control over the fleet than the current system! I can guarantee you I will never enjoy managing "Command points" nor "rainbow damage bonus ponies" in a space game because they are artificial, unimmersive and will get in the way of my fun. Just like the thought "how many rainbow ponies do I have left?" should never HAVE to cross my mind while I'm shooting my pew pew lasers, neither should the thought "how many command points do I have left?".

I rather let the rest of my fleet command itself, or have me command them but only be able to do so through (an infinite number of) vague fleet wide orders like assault or search and destroy. The occasional AI stupidity will be MUCH less frustrating than going into every battle having to formulate a strategy where I'm sure I won't run out of mysterious command points. No, running out of them is not the problem. Having to even THINK about them for a MOMENT is the problem. They do not and should not exist.

I understand the desire to make AI controlled friendly ships have a sort of mind of their own. I understand the desire to make this game be played on the battlefield, not in the war room. I understand the desire to avoid even the possibility of someone approaching this as an RTS. I DON'T understand the DAMN RAINBOW PONIES I have to keep track of while doing all this other fun and immersive stuff.

I hope this conveys the problem better.

PS : I was not asking if it could be modded to justify having it in the vanilla game. The fact that it would be one of the first mods to come out just means I'm not worried if it's not in vanilla as long as it can be modded. Can it be modded, Alex?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 08:48:19 AM by BonhommeCarnaval »
Logged
Quote from: Archduke Astro
One of you exhibits humility-impairment syndrome
Aww, you so sweet!

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 24149
    • View Profile
Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2012, 08:54:21 AM »

I would think letting a few of the more general orders not cost command points would be an effective solution to allowing anyone to never lost complete control of their fleet, while still leaving the CP function (with perhaps a few reduced points if more general orders would no longer cost CP) in place to reduce the dependency on micromanagement of every vessel.

Hmm. It's an interesting idea - and I think it would work. It adds a bit more complexity (keeping track of / explaining to a new player that some of the commonly used orders are free), and I don't know that it actually *adds* much. Command points would need to be rebalanced so you have fewer of them, and you're basically back to square one.

Now, you would never actually run out completely. But being able to run out completely is actually a good thing. One - even though it doesn't happen very often - just the threat of it adds importance to the choices you make. Two, if it does happen, you get another interesting choice - order an all-out retreat, or order search-and-destroy. Try to fight it out, or get out?

As the battle goes on, it slowly spirals out of the admiral's control. Comm systems go down or are more effectively jammed, casualties among the ranks of senior commanding officers mount. Both sides are fully engaged, and some ship commanders are so focused on their immediate situation that they are unable to effectively respond to orders. Finally, all fleet cohesion is lost, and the admiral faced with a choice - order all ships engage the enemy at will, or sound a general retreat?

To me, that's a compelling situation. Facing it (or, more often, just its possibility), for me, increases immersion greatly. It also presents some interesting gameplay choices when it happens, and makes preceding choices more meaningful. So it's not certainly something I want to get rid of, and not something I feel needs to be "fixed"!


As I said, nomatter if I run out of command points or not, if they are in I will be forced to take them into consideration. To me that's about as interesting as having rainbow ponies on the field that give you a 500% damage bonus for 10 seconds. Sure, you can implement it in a balanced way, but I'll never play a space game where I enjoy having to take rainbow ponies into consideration in my battle plan. Command points are about as real and immersive as rainbow damage bonus ponies for me.

It's a silly analogy but my point is that while I don't care about hardcore realism (near infinite acceleration in space, near unlimited range on weapons, etc.) because most of those things aren't fun, I DO care about immersion so I would like to go into a space battle thinking about the battle, my ships and weapons, my enemies... not the "CP : 5" at the top right of the screen.

Immersiveness greatly depends on context. For example, a game of MtG is immersive - but having an MtG-like card in, say, Mount & Blade (or ponies in Starfarer) would be very much out-of-context, and immersion-breaking. On the other hand, I would claim that CPs contextually fit in well with the rest of the command mechanics.

So, I hope you'll withhold your final judgment until you've actually played the game :)


By the way, you already could turn off CPs my modding individual missions. Most of them are extremely generous with the CPs already, though, so you hardly ever run out. I almost never do - though of course if you're experimenting with/learning the mechanics, that's going to happen more often. The new version addresses that a great deal (refund for cancelling assignments w/o unpausing, immediate feedback on what would happen, some other things along those lines).

I want to also stress that you don't lose control completely when you run out - as I mentioned before, you can either sound a general retreat, or order all ships to engage the enemy at will.


As for saying Command Points is on par with allowing an AI to cheat... I have that hard to believe. The AI is simply using the same AI your own fleet will use sans-orders if I'm not mistaken.

Just a bit of nitpickery: the enemy AI will attempt to capture objectives; on the other hand, the default state for your own fleet is seek & destroy, so they won't make an effort to capture objectives without being ordered to. This is as it should be. I doubt the enemy AI is restricted by command points, but surely it wouldn't make the game unduly difficult if it cheated a little in this regard.

Then I am mistaken! But, unless Alex confirms that the enemy is bound by CP too (which very well could be, but I certainly doubt that) then it still could be. :P That's why I think I'll still propose free CP costs for capture/assault/defend at least... unless that's been tested, discussed and/or tossed.

The AI plays by exactly the same rules as the player in regard to command (and just about everything else, really). It creates assignments, changes them around when necessary, and is limited by command points.
Logged

BonhommeCarnaval

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 95
    • View Profile
Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2012, 09:06:09 AM »

Immersiveness greatly depends on context. For example, a game of MtG is immersive - but having an MtG-like card in, say, Mount & Blade (or ponies in Starfarer) would be very much out-of-context, and immersion-breaking. On the other hand, I would claim that CPs contextually fit in well with the rest of the command mechanics.

So, I hope you'll withhold your final judgment until you've actually played the game :)


By the way, you already could turn off CPs my modding individual missions. Most of them are extremely generous with the CPs already, though, so you hardly ever run out. I almost never do - though of course if you're experimenting with/learning the mechanics, that's going to happen more often. The new version addresses that a great deal (refund for cancelling assignments w/o unpausing, immediate feedback on what would happen, some other things along those lines).

I want to also stress that you don't lose control completely when you run out - as I mentioned before, you can either sound a general retreat, or order all ships to engage the enemy at will.

You mention modding missions which caught my attention because I intend to buy this game for the sandbox campaign mode. Are CPs only used for individual mission scenarios? If you don't plan to use them in the campaign then it doesn't really concern me.

Oh and I'd buy it without hesitation but I'm hoping I can resist until either it's on Steam or I'm confident that it won't be. I'm way too disorganized to afford having games all over the place.  :P
Logged
Quote from: Archduke Astro
One of you exhibits humility-impairment syndrome
Aww, you so sweet!

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 24149
    • View Profile
Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2012, 09:09:18 AM »

You mention modding missions which caught my attention because I intend to buy this game for the sandbox campaign mode. Are CPs only used for individual mission scenarios? If you don't plan to use them in the campaign then it doesn't really concern me.

Missions are representative of individual battles in the campaign. So, in the campaign, you get a fresh set of CPs for every battle.

Oh and I'd buy it without hesitation but I'm hoping I can resist until either it's on Steam or I'm confident that it won't be. I'm way too disorganized to afford having games all over the place.  :P

:D
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]