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Author Topic: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!  (Read 20517 times)

Alex

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Re: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2011, 03:44:08 PM »

The Dagger torpedo bombers are just way too fragile, I think. But yeah, that's a good point - I think in general, the fighter (and bomber) AI needs to be better. I haven't spent nearly the amount of time on it that I did on ship AI, so it's a bit rough around the edges.
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Darrow

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Re: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2011, 07:20:34 PM »

Yesssss! You are getting what i'm saying. Fighters/bombers/whatever other strike craft should be apart of the environment and constantly (in my opinion). Just creates such a more interesting enviroment! Would be so nice to see fighters constantly zooming around engaging targets, having them die within 5 minutes is just blarg.

This is also related to fighters and bombers but i feel abit overwhelmed with the current control and ordering of ships. Ontop of that the fighters and bombers are super fragile and they tend to wonder off into some onslaught accidently and get destroyed.


Anyways i'm glad you see what im saying, thanks for taking your time to read all this :)
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Thana

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Re: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2011, 12:13:07 AM »

Personally, I'm more interested in actual spaceships than fighters - for one thing, action games almost always concentrate on the fighters that I find less interesting than ships - and am actually pretty happy with the way things work out. Although I do admit the possibility Alex floated above - decreasing the size of the hit box on fighters and bombers (presumably while downgrading their ability to take hits at the same time) - would probably be an improvement. The "fighters are omni-present, everywhere and infinite in number" concept, on the other hand, I find both boring and implausible. When I'm feeling overly critical, I don't even like that carriers replenish the fighter wings to full strength but generally I think it works out well in practice. (And it helps tremendously in keeping the wings in play longer because incidental attrition won't inevitably take them out sooner or later.)
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Alex

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Re: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2011, 09:40:42 AM »

Yesssss! You are getting what i'm saying. Fighters/bombers/whatever other strike craft should be apart of the environment and constantly (in my opinion). Just creates such a more interesting enviroment! Would be so nice to see fighters constantly zooming around engaging targets, having them die within 5 minutes is just blarg.

This is also related to fighters and bombers but i feel abit overwhelmed with the current control and ordering of ships. Ontop of that the fighters and bombers are super fragile and they tend to wonder off into some onslaught accidently and get destroyed.

Anyways i'm glad you see what im saying, thanks for taking your time to read all this :)

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts! Now, I'm kind of excited about improving fighter AI now to make them as annoyingly hard to kill as Tempests are :)

... When I'm feeling overly critical, I don't even like that carriers replenish the fighter wings to full strength ...

I'm currently trying to come up with an in-fiction explanation for that happening in the campaign that isn't "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain". May just have to go with that one, though.
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Flare

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Re: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2011, 03:46:13 PM »

It be nice to see a horde of fighters attack and you arm missile to counter them

A flak missile :D?

For bombers i'd make them more useful, They'd launch their torpedos or bombs from further away and take more punishment from frontal attacks and have less armor in the rear. Bombers would no longer have a one way trip to death. After each run bombers would return to be re-armed at the carry and launched again.

That would be preferable, though perhaps there should be an option for it in case you really do need them loosing their torpedo at suicidal range as they do now. Of course though, letting go of the torpedoes and bombs at an extreme range is probably going to miss a lot, one possible way to remedy this is to have the bombers and torpedo craft spread out their payload somewhat over a much wider arc than they are now to make sure that at least one will hit the target while some will inevitably miss like so:


    O


  \ | /
  o o o

I've been playing navy field recently, and the torpedo *** tends to do this to great effect. Their ships would shoot out in front of everybody and loose a massive amount of torpedoes in a huge arc often over 2 dozen torpedoes. Even if this wave doesn't hit anyone, it still has the effect of forcing the other side to fall back or focus on their maneuvering rather than properly ranging their guns in order to avoid the torpedoes.

The torpedo bombers could also use another craft or two in their wing, it would be a nice option though I imagine it would probably cost quite a bit more given their potency.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 04:13:23 PM by Flare »
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Darrow

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Re: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2011, 09:38:42 PM »

Flare you've been playing navyfield?

How do you find the automactic AA fire against the enemy planes?

It's not super effect eh? But it adds a cool atmosphere of minor self defense and what not.
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Flare

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Re: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2011, 10:32:16 PM »

I find that not many people rely on automatic AA, I've played most of my games in grand battles with a CL blowing all the planes out of the sky with manual flak. I'm pretty much worthless when it comes down to slugging matches, but can keep the skies clear over a wide area around the BBs I'm protecting.
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Alchenar

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Re: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2011, 11:44:58 AM »

One way to deal with torpedo bombers might be to make them more Wing Commander style - they have a longer (2, maybe 2.5x) range but have to slow right down and spend something like 5-10 secs 'locking on' before releasing torpedoes.

Torpedoes should be more resistant to AA and Flak - my view is that unless you are an Onlaught and putting up a literal wall of Flak projectiles then you shouldn't just be able to shoot down torpedoes by yourself - that's what's rendering bombers pointless (besides the fact that having released weapons then then continue to fly right over the enemy ship and suicide).

e: basically the point is that Cap Ships should be able to create a 'no-fly' zone around themselves with AA firepower if they have enough,  but to effectively counter dedicated bombers should require fighter/interceptors to actually go out and kill them/intercept the bombs.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 11:48:58 AM by Alchenar »
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Thana

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Re: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2011, 12:20:55 PM »

Well, I did notice when playing yesterday that the torpedoes are actually fairly durable and can sometimes breach the defences of even prepared targets with multiple point defence weapons pointed the way of a single incoming torpedo. Considering the immense damage torpedoes do, this to me sounds they don't need to be boosted - their current nature as extremely powerful but potentially interceptable weapons seems about right.
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Psycho Society

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Re: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2011, 11:43:16 PM »

Well, I did notice when playing yesterday that the torpedoes are actually fairly durable and can sometimes breach the defences of even prepared targets with multiple point defence weapons pointed the way of a single incoming torpedo. Considering the immense damage torpedoes do, this to me sounds they don't need to be boosted - their current nature as extremely powerful but potentially interceptable weapons seems about right.

Indeed. Torpedoes are the strongest weapon, but you can't just throw them around at anything and expect results. I like that you need to distract enemies or overload them to get them off their feet, then you send in the torpedoes to really lay them out. The same goes for you, if you're vigilant you can easily knock them out of the sky. But get just a little bit too involved in taking out that nearby frigate and you're toast. It's quite involving.
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Alchenar

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Re: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2011, 06:38:17 AM »

Well, I did notice when playing yesterday that the torpedoes are actually fairly durable and can sometimes breach the defences of even prepared targets with multiple point defence weapons pointed the way of a single incoming torpedo. Considering the immense damage torpedoes do, this to me sounds they don't need to be boosted - their current nature as extremely powerful but potentially interceptable weapons seems about right.

Well if they're being launched from further away then they'd need a little bit of a boost to account for the fact that there's more time to shoot them down.
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CommComms

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Re: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2011, 02:03:44 PM »

Well if they're being launched from further away then they'd need a little bit of a boost to account for the fact that there's more time to shoot them down.

The boost is that your bombers are much less likely to get destroyed. 
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Flare

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Re: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2011, 05:29:00 PM »

And can send another round given that they're much closer to the carrier.
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Darrow

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Re: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2011, 09:29:22 AM »

I think it's mainly balancing issues...

Like sometimes my bombers/torpedo bombers get destroyed sending their bombs off. The piranha Bombers for one usually drop their bombs then simply run right into the ship and die...


In other cases ill see torpedo's and bombs just fly right through a wall of gun fire from the onslaught, then in other cases it doesnt.

It's seriously up and down and i think Alex you need to find the happy medium situation where it's not so random.


Also, in my opinion it's really stupid to see bombs/torpedos getting blown up by heavy cannons/heavy mounted weapons... tehres no way they should be able to hit them......
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Alex

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Re: Strike Craft - FIGHTERS - BOMBERS never done right!
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2011, 10:24:44 AM »

I think it's mainly balancing issues...

Like sometimes my bombers/torpedo bombers get destroyed sending their bombs off. The piranha Bombers for one usually drop their bombs then simply run right into the ship and die...


In other cases ill see torpedo's and bombs just fly right through a wall of gun fire from the onslaught, then in other cases it doesnt.

It's seriously up and down and i think Alex you need to find the happy medium situation where it's not so random.

I don't think it's random - it just depends on whether the target ship is sufficiently distracted. I like that you can't just count on bombers to tear down everything - each side has a fighting chance.

As I think I mentioned before, though, some fighter AI improvements wouldn't hurt :)

Also, in my opinion it's really stupid to see bombs/torpedos getting blown up by heavy cannons/heavy mounted weapons... tehres no way they should be able to hit them......

Hmm. I have to point out that Starfarer's combat is not going after realism. It's somewhere between arcadey and strategic, depending on the type of ship you fly, but it's certainly not *realistic*. I mean, cannons on spaceships? Naval warfare is an inspiration and some dynamics are modeled after it (such as carriers, bombers, etc), but it's not intended to be an exact copy.
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