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Author Topic: Solution for Save Scumming  (Read 15093 times)

Dark.Revenant

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Re: Solution for Save Scumming
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2012, 04:16:23 AM »

Yeah, like a hardcore mode.

It's kind of like how Hardcore became so popular in Diablo II; a lot of players don't care for that kind of risk, but many actually enjoy the thrill and accomplishment.  It's a preference that players can make for themselves, and having a method for the game to enforce it makes the feeling sweeter.
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BillyRueben

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Re: Solution for Save Scumming
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2012, 05:33:33 AM »

As was suggested in that other thread, a slight bonus for picking the "no save-scumming" option would be cool. As in: 5% credit or XP bonus after engagements.
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DelicateTask

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Re: Solution for Save Scumming
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2012, 07:04:06 AM »

TL;DR: I don't agree with hardcore mode for reasons that you won't like, just move along.

I warned you.

I like the idea of extra rewards for extra optional choices that may raise the difficulty. However, I rather don't like the idea of calling a gamemode "Hardcore", because it makes me feel like a lesser person for not playing it. I enjoy a more relaxed play style, and using crazy exploits is something I've always enjoyed about PC games. I don't want to be criticized by that "Hardcore" button taunting me.
However, perhaps I just dislike the name "Hardcore" because people take it too seriously. Some people just want a challenge, and I can respect that, but it seems like other people just want to demonstrate their 'superiority' to everyone else.

On the other hand, if a battle tracked what options weren't used, you could get some interesting lists. I don't know how many people here ever played Hack or NetHack, or variants thereof, but something the way that conducts were handled there could be interesting. Also, like NetHack, permadeath could be a good option instead. The old roguelike games were legendary for being punishing, without the 'hardcore' buzzword that everyone's concerned with. I feel that a permadeath option helps build pride and involvement with the character, increasing immersion, while also adding some extra challenge and adrenaline to tight situations.

And another thing, once the campaign is fleshed out, there will be various missions in it. I'm sure that some will be easy, while some will be insanely hard. If people can get a performance report after each mission, then competing for the highscores would allow for that competitive d*ck-measuring that some people are so crazy about.

As for the ship damage 50% or 100%, I think that the reason for the 50% option is there to compensate because the AI can usually stay alive better than the player. Instead of creating a separate difficulty that removes it, instead give an XP and credits percentage bonus for having it off, or even bonus score at the end of a mission. Risk/reward is always cooler than 'no, you can't'.
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icepick37

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Re: Solution for Save Scumming
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2012, 08:18:52 AM »

You raise some fair points there.

It doesn't matter what you call it. But having a hard mode of some kind is a great addition to most games. It keeps the difficulty curve going when you have mastered the main game. It gives you something to push for.

The sliders/toggles in Atom Zombie Smasher are a good example. It not as nebulous as achievements (which I have nothing against btw), but it gives you something to work towards. Conducts are a similar idea, yeah. I've never been good enough to play for those on purpose, though, so I can’t speak to how they feel, but they seem like they wouldn’t be concrete enough for most players to take advantage of.

Hard mode isn't usually about high scores. That's a separate mania in my eyes,

Also xp boost or whatever for playing in the harder mode kinda defeats the point doesn't it?
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Alex

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Re: Solution for Save Scumming
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2012, 08:40:17 AM »

Since this seems to be a hot-button issue, I thought I'd share my thoughts and hopefully lay some of the concerns to rest. (As an aside, I'm very disappointed at how quickly the previous thread on this topic took a turn for the worse, and this one threatened to do likewise before Archduke's timely intervention. Even if you feel strongly about something - especially if you do - being respectful and refraining from personal attacks is just a baseline of civilized behavior, and is required for a meaningful conversation. With that out of the way...)


Save games are an interesting topic. On the one hand, they're not clearly part of the game mechanics - rather, part of the infrastructure, the "software" part that makes the "game" part work. On the other hand, if you've got a giant "undo consequences" button staring you in the face the whole time you play, it can't help but affect your experience.

I don't think it's an issue of having self control vs not. It's an issue of the game asking you to keep exercising that self-control the entire time you play. It's like having a bridge without handrails - "Oh, surely you're not going to fall off", the builder says. "That would be so clumsy." And so, crossing the bridge - while within your capacity - becomes stressful because you've got to worry about falling off every time you cross.

Just add the damn handrails. You're not calling everyone a clumsy oaf by doing it.

Obviously, a player that really wants to reload a save can avoid whatever scheme you've got set up to thwart it. The goal isn't to stop them from jumping off a bridge. It's to make it inconvenient enough so that they don't simply fall off. Having to kill the game and restart it, for example, should be a sufficient deterrent - and then, you throw in the distinct flavor that they're "cheating" by doing that, because it's not something the game lets them do normally. If that's not enough, there's not much more you can do anyway - not in a single player game.

This only applies to players that want to have this kind of experience, though. To take the analogy much too far, you wouldn't build handrails around a swimming pool.


In other words, you're very likely to see an optional "save on exit" game mode. It'll likely even be the one the game is balanced for - because you can't balance if you assume the player is able to save/load their way out of every predicament. It probably won't be the default for a new game, but the game should try to create the perception that this mode is the "intended" way to play.

That's not to diminish someone that wants to have complete freedom in reloading when they want, or to play at 50% damage. These are perfectly legitimate ways to play the game - you're not being "criticized" by the game for not playing on the normal difficulty setting. It's just being honest with you. ... although, I suppose that also depends on just how those options are presented.


On the subject of restricting when the player can save: that makes more sense for games with discrete levels, where the skill being tested is "can you get through this level without messing up". For a free-form sandbox, that would just add an unnecessary burden for the player and alter their behavior within the sandbox for no good in-game reason. "Oh, great, I've got to burn some fuel and get to a station because the game designer is a #$%&". <Achievement unlocked: immersion broken>


Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to getting 0.53.1a out the door.
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BillyRueben

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Re: Solution for Save Scumming
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2012, 08:53:24 AM »

Also xp boost or whatever for playing in the harder mode kinda defeats the point doesn't it?
It might, but I'd like to think it doesn't. It would just give people an incentive to play without the ability to undo their mistakes. I would suggest something cosmetic (starting ship or outpost paint job), but then people who want to play without autosaving would be annoyed that they don't get access to it.
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Verrius

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Re: Solution for Save Scumming
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2012, 01:18:21 PM »

XP Boosts and other bonuses for using harder settings work for some games, but I don't think they'd work well for this one. The reason you'd use harder options, or rather the Hardcore mode, is for immersion.

Immersion is a big deal on it's own. Like with my Fleet Control Mod: Buying your stations is an unnecessary hassle I didn't ask you to do in earlier verions, but people love the feature because of the immersion you get from defending the atlas and watching it deploy the station.

Having to worry about your next engagement and knowing you cannot take it back is a big deal.

As for "self-control", Alex explained it better than I ever could.

Sunfire

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Re: Solution for Save Scumming
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2012, 06:03:28 PM »

Were this a steam game with achievements, or just had achievements in general this might make more sense. I do have to note a few things though:

The label does matter.  A lot.
Please explain further.
He actually shouldn't have to explain much, seeing as how plenty of people have already expressed that a little label in the form of "Hardcore" DOES matter to them. It might not matter to you, and I don't blame you I agree, but people have made it clear that it does, in fact, matter to THEM. I guess it's an epeen thing.

Thus, I think it's a feature that could easily be added much later down the line. It's not really necessary, perhaps something that can be tacked on when the game is pretty much done. I see no reason not to if there isn't anything else that can be done.



as good as people wanting something is, i REALLY do not want my save options tied down to my difficulty level, as you can make an easy game hard by taking away the players ability to save where ever they please.

IMO, a box that opens up after character creation so you select which type of saving you would like is in order:

normal saving (IE: save anywhere at anytime), no combat auto save
auto save before and after combat, save anytime
auto save before and after combat, save only on exit


like mount and blade
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Mattk50

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Re: Solution for Save Scumming
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2012, 12:16:56 AM »

I agree with most of this thread, giving the player the initial choice like in mount and blade is the best idea. This isnt the 2nd or even the 3rd this topic has been brought up and it always goes back to the mount and blade choice system because it just works well for everybody.

One thing that needs to be pointed out tho, unlike in the OP, save mode choice and difficulty setting needs to be different. A player shouldn't be limited because he wants to play on normal damage settings but wants to manage his own saves.
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Brainbread

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Re: Solution for Save Scumming
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2012, 09:29:47 AM »

Good arguments here

I try to deal with my losses by accepting them. If I make a mistake and lose 3 Tempests, I "want" to not lose them, but I try to soldier on. Just because there are handrails on the bridge doesn't mean we have to grip them until we cut circulation. They're there if we stumble.

If you look away from your monitor for a second and get stuck in combat with a Hegemony deathball 15x your size, it isn't fair to be unjustly punished by the game for it.

And as for the save-scumming part of it, sometimes its fun to "see if you can take on that fleet" with your handful of ships. I've never played M&B with the "no quit without saving" option, because sometimes its fun to take stupid risks to see if you can come out on top.

Tl;DR: Forcing people to all play by "No quit without saving" robs games of a certain kind of challenge; the kind that breaks the monotony and lets you play with, "What if"
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PCCL

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Re: Solution for Save Scumming
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2012, 09:41:43 AM »

Quote
In other words, you're very likely to see an optional "save on exit" game mode.

don't think that's gonna be too big a problem...

I like playing "what if" sometimes too
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Reshy

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Re: Solution for Save Scumming
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2012, 10:09:10 AM »

Honestly the problem with these 'hardcore' modes is that you can't be risky, you have to play safe not to lose everything.
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icepick37

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Re: Solution for Save Scumming
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2012, 10:33:12 AM »

Agreed. Plus sometimes I just want to gauge my fleet against another. See what happens.
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Tarran

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Re: Solution for Save Scumming
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2012, 11:52:41 AM »

Honestly the problem with these 'hardcore' modes is that you can't be risky, you have to play safe not to lose everything.
You've got a great point there. I agree.
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PCCL

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Re: Solution for Save Scumming
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2012, 11:54:26 AM »

that said... hardcore mode has its values...

good to have options either way
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