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[BigBrainEnergy]

Instead of a normal cooldown, allow the recall device to store up to 2 charges with the charge regeneration being the same as the current cooldown. It wouldn't be a huge buff, but it would make the ship a little more reliable. Plus, systems expertise would have a larger impact since it not only increases the recharge speed but it would also let it store up to 3 charges.

It turns out this change is easy enough that I can actually test it out. Feels nice, but it does make it really obvious that the AI is too conservative with the system. If a bomber dies and respawns, the AI will see that it still has one "armed" bomber and refuse to engage the system even when all the other bombers are way out at max range and trying to return. Although, the fact that it could be used much better in player hands may make it a more exciting flagship option if you grab systems expertise.

Here is a test of what it would look like under AI control (vs sim destroyers):

video

[close]

An AI tweak that could work is whenever there is only 1-2 bombers still armed, it starts a 5 second countdown. At the end of the 5 seconds it uses recall device even if the bombers still have ammo.

[Alex]

Hmm, that's a nice suggestion about the AI, thank you - did that! Going to mull over the charge-based idea; it definitely does have some things going for it.

I've been looking at the Astral today, and this is probably as good a place as any talk mention the changes so far:

Astral:
   Removed built-in Advanced Optics
   Added built-in Advanced Targeting Core and Expanded Missile Racks
   Increased shield flux/damage to 0.7 (was: 0.6)

The thought here is that if you give the Astral something special that boosts the fighters, then what you're doing is encouraging builds that focus purely on the fighters and neglect its weapons, which is already something that may happen to some extent. So instead, the hullmods add value to the weapons you might mount, and the slight shield nerf is to make it more difficult for it to work as a primary a front-line combatant.

[BigBrainEnergy]

Hmm, that's a nice suggestion about the AI, thank you - did that! Going to mull over the charge-based idea; it definitely does have some things going for it.

Nice! Glad I could help.

Astral:
   Removed built-in Advanced Optics
   Added built-in Advanced Targeting Core and Expanded Missile Racks
   Increased shield flux/damage to 0.7 (was: 0.6)

The thought here is that if you give the Astral something special that boosts the fighters, then what you're doing is encouraging builds that focus purely on the fighters and neglect its weapons, which is already something that may happen to some extent. So instead, the hullmods add value to the weapons you might mount, and the slight shield nerf is to make it more difficult for it to work as a primary a front-line combatant.

I do get this. Missile racks are a no-brainer, because those large missiles are always worth using. The medium energies, not so much. Advanced targeting core might help with that.


For the system change, it might cause the ship to be too fighter focused. On the other hand consider: it's really fun to pilot!

[mr. domain]

Hmm, that's a nice suggestion about the AI, thank you - did that! Going to mull over the charge-based idea; it definitely does have some things going for it.

I've been looking at the Astral today, and this is probably as good a place as any talk mention the changes so far:

Astral:
   Removed built-in Advanced Optics
   Added built-in Advanced Targeting Core and Expanded Missile Racks
   Increased shield flux/damage to 0.7 (was: 0.6)

The thought here is that if you give the Astral something special that boosts the fighters, then what you're doing is encouraging builds that focus purely on the fighters and neglect its weapons, which is already something that may happen to some extent. So instead, the hullmods add value to the weapons you might mount, and the slight shield nerf is to make it more difficult for it to work as a primary a front-line combatant.

This will be good for balance, but I primarily like this change because of the vibe of both of the slow blue high tech capitals having ATC

[Dadada]

+1 for OPs suggestion. I also like the changes Alex made. How about adding OPs suggestion on top? Pretty please? :3

[Killer of Fate]

Hmm, that's a nice suggestion about the AI, thank you - did that! Going to mull over the charge-based idea; it definitely does have some things going for it.

I've been looking at the Astral today, and this is probably as good a place as any talk mention the changes so far:

Astral:
   Removed built-in Advanced Optics
   Added built-in Advanced Targeting Core and Expanded Missile Racks
   Increased shield flux/damage to 0.7 (was: 0.6)

The thought here is that if you give the Astral something special that boosts the fighters, then what you're doing is encouraging builds that focus purely on the fighters and neglect its weapons, which is already something that may happen to some extent. So instead, the hullmods add value to the weapons you might mount, and the slight shield nerf is to make it more difficult for it to work as a primary a front-line combatant.

Advanced Targeting Core...
Yes... It is something I have been experimenting with too.

I'm glad you're pushing it towards a combat carrier direction. I understand that there will be no direct OP increase as to not encourage just spamming bombers with Expanded Deck Crew, but simply hullmods and shield strength (I read that backwards, the shield is getting a nerf. That's a good thing probably) changes to encourage it being a central flagship that attacks along its bombers rather than solely through them.

That'll also heavily reduce the amount of counterplay it'll suffer. Because if all bombers die, there's always plan B... Hurricanes and Squalls.

[Doctorhealsgood]

Hmm, that's a nice suggestion about the AI, thank you - did that! Going to mull over the charge-based idea; it definitely does have some things going for it.

I've been looking at the Astral today, and this is probably as good a place as any talk mention the changes so far:

Astral:
   Removed built-in Advanced Optics
   Added built-in Advanced Targeting Core and Expanded Missile Racks
   Increased shield flux/damage to 0.7 (was: 0.6)

The thought here is that if you give the Astral something special that boosts the fighters, then what you're doing is encouraging builds that focus purely on the fighters and neglect its weapons, which is already something that may happen to some extent. So instead, the hullmods add value to the weapons you might mount, and the slight shield nerf is to make it more difficult for it to work as a primary a front-line combatant.

Woah that's some high value upgrades. Some tweaks to recall device and astral is gonna be great again.

[Killer of Fate]

Hmm, that's a nice suggestion about the AI, thank you - did that! Going to mull over the charge-based idea; it definitely does have some things going for it.

I've been looking at the Astral today, and this is probably as good a place as any talk mention the changes so far:

Astral:
   Removed built-in Advanced Optics
   Added built-in Advanced Targeting Core and Expanded Missile Racks
   Increased shield flux/damage to 0.7 (was: 0.6)

The thought here is that if you give the Astral something special that boosts the fighters, then what you're doing is encouraging builds that focus purely on the fighters and neglect its weapons, which is already something that may happen to some extent. So instead, the hullmods add value to the weapons you might mount, and the slight shield nerf is to make it more difficult for it to work as a primary a front-line combatant.

Woah that's some high value upgrades. Some tweaks to recall device and astral is gonna be great again.

0.6 to 0.7 shields is a huge nerf though

[Doctorhealsgood]

Hmm, that's a nice suggestion about the AI, thank you - did that! Going to mull over the charge-based idea; it definitely does have some things going for it.

I've been looking at the Astral today, and this is probably as good a place as any talk mention the changes so far:

Astral:
   Removed built-in Advanced Optics
   Added built-in Advanced Targeting Core and Expanded Missile Racks
   Increased shield flux/damage to 0.7 (was: 0.6)

The thought here is that if you give the Astral something special that boosts the fighters, then what you're doing is encouraging builds that focus purely on the fighters and neglect its weapons, which is already something that may happen to some extent. So instead, the hullmods add value to the weapons you might mount, and the slight shield nerf is to make it more difficult for it to work as a primary a front-line combatant.

Woah that's some high value upgrades. Some tweaks to recall device and astral is gonna be great again.

0.6 to 0.7 shields is a huge nerf though

It might just be worth it.

[Killer of Fate]

Hmm, that's a nice suggestion about the AI, thank you - did that! Going to mull over the charge-based idea; it definitely does have some things going for it.

I've been looking at the Astral today, and this is probably as good a place as any talk mention the changes so far:

Astral:
   Removed built-in Advanced Optics
   Added built-in Advanced Targeting Core and Expanded Missile Racks
   Increased shield flux/damage to 0.7 (was: 0.6)

The thought here is that if you give the Astral something special that boosts the fighters, then what you're doing is encouraging builds that focus purely on the fighters and neglect its weapons, which is already something that may happen to some extent. So instead, the hullmods add value to the weapons you might mount, and the slight shield nerf is to make it more difficult for it to work as a primary a front-line combatant.

Woah that's some high value upgrades. Some tweaks to recall device and astral is gonna be great again.

0.6 to 0.7 shields is a huge nerf though

It might just be worth it.

I remember modding the Astral to have 22k base flux. Having that 0.6 shields was so much fun along that until an Eradicator with HMG that deal 640 DPS rolled in and just fired away. Heh.

[PixiCode]

I have no opinion on BBE's recall device, its strength goes up and down based on overall wing strength in the game so if the wings remain in their current state, recall device could be buffed. If wings get a rework to be more impactful, might need to not buff it/tone it back to how it is now. If Astral gets a buff in other ways, system may not want a buff. Could go in any direction. The AI suggestion seems good, though.

I thought on those current changes Alex has showed so far and I feel relatively optimistic about them. I do not think it pushes it more into only using wings or being a battlecarrier, while making all Astral builds better on top of it. That's pretty good!

At first, I was actually going to say I disagree with the changes, but I changed my mind. If the Astral's OP is not being adjusted alongside the new hullmods, I think it's a good overall buff to the Astral. However, if the total OP Astral has is being reduced with these built-in hullmods, I think it is a bad overall change.

As it stands currently, Astral struggles to get the value you may expect from a 50 DP capital ship because its system, wings and missiles aren't exactly very competitive with other capital strengths on their own. However, Astral actually has a pretty good shield when you pump some capacitors into it! It can absorb some aggression from the enemy more than a Heron or Condor could and can do some respectable damage to targets in close range if you use non-beam weapons, which can be exploited by your fleet. In particular, when using a bunch of small fast ships, Legion or Mora wouldn't get as much value with the 'battle' part of being a battlecarrier because they'll be left behind very often, but Astral isn't a battlecarrier.

I thought nerfing the shield flux/damage ratio would be a net overall reduction of power for the Astral and would make players gravitate towards Heron and Condor even more than they already do. However, I realized if the OP doesn't change, it ends up being a net equal for its durability if you just put more OP into the capacitors, now with ATC. So, that's actually great. ATC even helps more supportive-focused builds that focuses all its OP into fighters!

EDIT: Maybe giving it built-in EMR on top of it is a bit too much, though? I'm not fully against that change, but that seems like it could be overkill. I feel like the player should be able to choose; do they want to use OP or a S-mod on EMR, or do they want to use their resources for more durability on their Astral?

[Alex]

For the system change, it might cause the ship to be too fighter focused. On the other hand consider: it's really fun to pilot!

That does look very fun! I'm concerned that'd be too strong, though, especially combined with the other buffs; you might see an Astral mono-fleet just deleting things!

This will be good for balance, but I primarily like this change because of the vibe of both of the slow blue high tech capitals having ATC

Yeah, I like the symmetry of that, too!

If the Astral's OP is not being adjusted alongside the new hullmods

It's staying the same, at least for the moment! And you make some good points, I think.

[Doctorhealsgood]

I think it would be best to see if the astral changes as they are work before deciding to tone them down later

[BigBrainEnergy]

There is always the heretical option of buffing it a lot, and then raising the dp

I mostly like the charge-based system for player piloting, it makes it feel much more impactful as a flagship. While it does help the AI, I don't think it's going to get nearly as much value as the player can. I'll test out an astral mono-fleet with this change to see if it's an issue.


First test
This is without the recall device change, just the ATC and missile racks (and 0.7 efficiency).

astral

[close]

combat screenshots

[close]

The [4 astrals + support] is doing worse than [3 paragons + support], but they can at least beat ordos. Next I'm going to test a mixed fleet [2 astral + 2 paragon + support] to see how it does.


*Side note:*
There is the chronic issue that fighters get more powerful the more you stack them. The current carrier skills somewhat mitigate this by giving larger bonuses when you run a smaller number of carriers, but the numbers could be even more aggressive in that direction. For example, you could increase the carrier group bonus to 75% and reduce the max number of bays to 6. On top of that, you could increase the officer multiplier from x1.5 to x2. The result would be that running 1 astral would get you +150% replacement speed instead of the current +75%. A similar change to fighter uplink would net you +60% top speed instead of +30%.

That might sound very strong, but if you're investing in fleet skills to buff a specific ship type they need to come out more powerful than other ships as long as you respect the skill's soft-cap. This approach works perfectly for phase coil tuning, so it should be possible with the carrier skills too. For herons and moras, 6 bays comes out to 40 dp which is the same as phase coil tuning.


Second test
I don't know about the speed, but compared to running 4 astrals this felt a lot safer. Both the paragon and the astral escorting it had nothing to fear from pretty much anything the remnant could throw at it.

fleet screenshots

[close]

[SCC]

I think I would have preferred to have Recall Device have no cooldown, but ATC and EMR are fine, too, I suppose? They certainly don't make the ship weaker, but I didn't expect this angle.

There is the chronic issue that fighters get more powerful the more you stack them.

Bro's stuck in 0.9.1. Quite curiously, missile spamming never caught on like carrier spam, despite also being quite good currently.