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[Princess of Evil]

Yeah but odyssey costs 10 more dp and has the whole broadside thing going on. Don't get me wrong I love Odyssey, but it can be a hassle broadsiding things sometimes, especially since it doesn't have a maneuverability system like the conquest. Plus it's one sided broadside. If you want to go westward to find targets, you have to turn even more or go around the north of the enemy which can go badly if they get reinforcements.

Or you could hold S and go backwards. The thing is, Oddy is a lot more survivable - Retribution can just fail to kill a heavy cruiser in time it would take the cruiser to go through Retribution's shields, which suck due to it being low tech. And despite being a close range low tech capital, it has less armor than every direct combat cruiser (just as an example: same as Gryphon, and only a bit more hull). Not to mention that Oddy's ship system lets it run away, and Retribution is just stuck in the middle of enemies if it ever presses the big red button in combat. With a 60 degree shield.

Eradicator and especially Grendel aren't as mobile as the retribution.

Grendel is absolutely faster than a Retribution, you just have to build it like a phase cruiser. It's *just* fast enough to be fun with every speed+. Meanwhile, while Eradicator isn't *quite* as fast, it's fast enough.
Also, since DP is mentioned: both are 13-17 DP cheaper. Which is enough to get a second support ship. Maybe a third.

People seem to forget the Retribution has battleship firepower while still going faster than most cruisers and destroyers and even some frigates and still is really cheap to deploy. You can't have it all, so it sacrifices range (but it's fast) and durability (but dead ships do no damage, on either side lmao).

Assuming the enemy doesn't outkite a big block of rusty tissue paper that can't get any capital grade range increases...

[Megas]

As for special modifications, I know there's pages of discourse on it, but it really should just be non-removable, with Executor stats buffed so that it evens out, and/or it should not be present on player-manufactured Executors. Having a capital ship that costs a full new capital's worth of credits to get to baseline performance just discourages players from using that specific ship, which is rather a shame.

As a side bonus, it'd make the "pristine Executor for massive rep hit plus PK" deal a lot more interesting, since it would be a unique ship akin to the special XIV warships.

Special Modifications is normally not a big deal, until player takes Hull Restoration.  Then the max CR he can get is +10% (instead of +15%) because Special Modifications is a d-mod, but Hull Restoration cannot remove it, only Restore can.  Part of the reason to take Hull Restoration is to remove d-mods, but it cannot even do that job when it comes to Executor and other ships with built-in d-mods.

Executor is not the only ship with it, the other LG ships have it too.  If Executor and other LGs should keep it, then the solution would be to promote Special Mods from built-in d-mod to normal built-in hullmod.

Then there are the Pather and Pirate ships with built-in d-mods too.  The Pather ships people care about are cheap to Restore, and the Venture-P does not look like ship I want to use for endgame, unlike Executor.

[Mishrak]

In an era of Destroyers being very strong with Escort Package, (most)Cruisers are too expensive to deploy.  I think their DP values in general should be looked at to make them more competitive with Capitals.  I realize the DP values affect the AI fleets as well, so these DP values reflect how I view the ship from a player perspective. 

I do think some cruisers should be re-evaluated from a design perspective, but offering valuable ideas there is outside of my wheelhouse.  I do, however, think that all XIV versions should have markedly different styles rather than just +OP/Flux +Armor -Speed.  More stuff like Legion vs XIV Legion and less stuff like Dominator vs XIV Dominator.

Fury -  It's been hurt a lot by the CH changes and struggles tremendously without SO.  It's a strike ship with no real ability to disengage.  20 DP -> 18 DP.

Champion - Large Missile nerfs really have made this ship's burst damage less effective than it was.  It's still good, but it's way too expensive at 25.  25 DP -> 22 DP.

Dominator  - There's zero reason to field Low Tech over XIV, but even so it's 25 price point is too high.  25-> 22 DP

Gryphon - This ship absolutely needs to be nerfed.  Maybe it's the missile spam in general that's the problem and not the hull, but they're too oppressive. 20 -> 25 DP

[Bungee_man]

Then there are the Pather and Pirate ships with built-in d-mods too.

On that note, player-built ships shouldn't start out with those - they're explained as the product of service under a pirate crew, after all, and the pirate falcons we're printing are brand new.

Fury -  It's been hurt a lot by the CH changes and struggles tremendously without SO.  It's a strike ship with no real ability to disengage.  20 DP -> 18 DP.

Champion - Large Missile nerfs really have made this ship's burst damage less effective than it was.  It's still good, but it's way too expensive at 25.  25 DP -> 22 DP.

Dominator  - There's zero reason to field Low Tech over XIV, but even so it's 25 price point is too high.  25-> 22 DP

Gryphon - This ship absolutely needs to be nerfed.  Maybe it's the missile spam in general that's the problem and not the hull, but they're too oppressive. 20 -> 25 DP

Fury definitely could use a buff of some kind. A few really good players will use it as a challenge, but I think most people just see it as something that can't be made to work without extraordinary skill. High risk without commensurately high reward.

Champion is one I can't really get to work now, I'll second that one too. It's slow, DP-expensive, poorly-defended, and doesn't really have the flux to make full use of its large energy.

Dominator I agree with you, a DP reduction is perfect. It's a decent ship that's just too expensive to justify using instead of an Onslaught.

Gryphon isn't so simple, it has the same saturation problem as every other carrier and missile ship. Too few and nothing gets through, too many and everything gets through, so every additional ship you add makes all of them more powerful. If you balance them around a monofleet, they'll be useless everywhere else, and if you balance them around a normal fleet composition, they'll be broken as a monofleet.

[Megas]

I like to see Escort Package cost 7 OP for cruisers too.  15 OP is too expensive for less range boost than destroyers get when hovering near a capital.  While I have read plenty about destroyers using Escort Package, I have yet to read about anybody using it for cruisers.

Squall (plus Harpoons) made Gryphon overpowered.  With the hp nerf, it is not so bad solo, but it still appears overpowered when it has friends.  Still, I prefer to pretend Gryphon is a carrier launching suicide drones and use that instead of Heron.  I get more out of Gryphon than I do with Heron.

Fury may be okay as a playership, but I am mainly interested in NPC performance with it since I usually pilot something else, and Fury is the one cruiser that is on the high-tech bp pack.  The AI should be able to pull its weight with Fury, but it simply cannot without Safety Override.

Fury -  It's been hurt a lot by the CH changes and struggles tremendously without SO.  It's a strike ship with no real ability to disengage.  20 DP -> 18 DP.

Probably not enough if it is not buffed elsewhere too.  It also needs to be cheaper (cost less than 100k) or get Rugged Construction to mitigate all the times Fury dies.  (Assuming no Safety Override to fix its speed problem.)  Probably better to get a built-in hullmod that always enables zero-flux, since that is the part from Safety Override that keeps NPC Fury alive.  That, or give it a fighter bay to make it mini-Odyssey.  (Though if Converted Hangar has no penalties aside from more DP, then maybe lowering DP cost and boosting OP a bit can help.)

[Mishrak]

I like to see Escort Package cost 7 OP for cruisers too.  15 OP is too expensive for less range boost than destroyers get when hovering near a capital.  While I have read plenty about destroyers using Escort Package, I have yet to read about anybody using it for cruisers.

I briefly tinkered with using it on my Erads (was my first idea for Escort Package), but it is out of place on Cruisers.  Without getting a built-in bonus, it's really hard to justify the OP cost for just .2 extra range.  7 OP might be too little, but 15 is too much.

Champion is one I can't really get to work now, I'll second that one too. It's slow, DP-expensive, poorly-defended, and doesn't really have the flux to make full use of its large energy.

Ships like this have steadily lost power over time with no corresponding gain.  First the old CH changes removed the Xyphos setup which covered a lot of PD issues for really low cost, then the missile HP nerfs made stuff like Hammers and Cyclone Reapers (also nerfed) much more likely to get shot down.  Then the enemy fleets all got stronger with better compositions.  Many Cruisers got left behind a bit.

Most of them are still viable (except non-SO Fury, that ship is cooked), but the loss in power is definitely significant.

Low Tech Eradicator is another Cruiser that fell down a peg, although I think it's still a good hull at it's 20 DP price.

[BigBrainEnergy]

Maybe instead of a hullmod, make it part of the recall device? The astral sends them straight out on another attack run after using it pretty much every time. That would solve the cohesion problem and it would effectively allow the astral to double strike a target very quickly. Might make the scintilla too strong, but it's not that threatening as is. Even if it becomes an issue you could just up the dp a little.

This idea sounds interesting, but could you elaborate exactly how it works? Do you mean that after recall, it immediately teleports the fighters back to the location they were occupying prior to the recall?

No, I mean they get a large but temporary speed boost after being recalled. Going straight back to where they were sounds insane.

[Killer of Fate]

u can never fix things, just start over

ideally just give Mora, Heron, Astral a bit more OP to play with
Give Talons a wider firing angle and increased turn rate so that they stop ramming into missiles and actually shoot them down
Buff Wasps shield a little to make it easier for them to reach critical mass
Buff Spark's Burst PD so it actually does something. Maybe just give it the standard burst PD but with only 2 charges I guess (I assume this wasn't done because of high hit strength, so I don't know. Might not want to do that in vanilla)
There was talk of decreasing Wasp's respawn timer to 3 seconds

Give Astral 10k flux and a bit more venting, and a slight bit of mobility so it's at least faster than Paragon...

Reconsider Pegasus and Invictus situation, cause right now they feel really weak compared to vanilla counterparts (or maybe just keep them as they are, who cares)

I dunno, those are the most obvious ones I could come up with...
Maybe lower Harbinger DP to 14, lol

[Mishrak]

Invictus is insanely strong in player's hands, I'm not sure what you mean that it feels weak.  If you want to trivialize the game just super brick tank it with Mjolnirs, slam the sub system and vent in their face.  The biggest issue the Invictus has is it gets hard to shoot through all the wreckage on the field.

[Killer of Fate]

Invictus is insanely strong in player's hands, I'm not sure what you mean that it feels weak.  If you want to trivialize the game just super brick tank it with Mjolnirs, slam the sub system and vent in their face.  The biggest issue the Invictus has is it gets hard to shoot through all the wreckage on the field.

well... It's fine I guess, I just feel like it's dumber than a Paragon. But honestly it can stay as is. It's not really that important

[Wyvern]

The one thing I'd put here is some way to identify "Have I scanned this thing for hyperspace topography already?"

[Thaago]

In an era of Destroyers being very strong with Escort Package, (most)Cruisers are too expensive to deploy.  I think their DP values in general should be looked at to make them more competitive with Capitals.  I realize the DP values affect the AI fleets as well, so these DP values reflect how I view the ship from a player perspective. 

I don't think that adjusting DP values in response to Escort Package is the right move here, because that would warp everything before the endgame 'capital + escort' phase. Its a very sweeping set of changes instead of fine tuning the offender, Escort Package.

Imo, Escort Package should be made a little worse for destroyers and a little better for cruisers to narrow the gap. Maybe even just giving cruisers the S mod bonus would be enough; it would still be only half as much as the destroyers get thanks to caps being 1 size bigger than cruiser, but 10% better shields is nothing to sneeze at for a buff.

I do think some cruisers should be re-evaluated from a design perspective, but offering valuable ideas there is outside of my wheelhouse.  I do, however, think that all XIV versions should have markedly different styles rather than just +OP/Flux +Armor -Speed.  More stuff like Legion vs XIV Legion and less stuff like Dominator vs XIV Dominator.

Agreed! I really like the more meaningful changes of the Legion and would love to see it on other skins.

Fury -  It's been hurt a lot by the CH changes and struggles tremendously without SO.  It's a strike ship with no real ability to disengage.  20 DP -> 18 DP.

Champion - Large Missile nerfs really have made this ship's burst damage less effective than it was.  It's still good, but it's way too expensive at 25.  25 DP -> 22 DP.

Dominator  - There's zero reason to field Low Tech over XIV, but even so it's 25 price point is too high.  25-> 22 DP

Gryphon - This ship absolutely needs to be nerfed.  Maybe it's the missile spam in general that's the problem and not the hull, but they're too oppressive. 20 -> 25 DP

No comment on Fury and Champion because I just haven't played with them enough this patch.

For Dominator, I don't think its DP should be lowered because, while I agree Bungee_Man that the Onslaught outclasses it, the Dominator itself is a strong ship that will beat every other cruiser in a fight, in exchange for being vulnerable to being swarmed. I'd rather have Onslaught go 40 to 45 than dominator 25 to 22.

For Gryphons, I agree with Megas that it is the Squall/Harpoon combo that pushes it over the edge. Vanshilar's suggestion from a few pages back to change Squall/Harpoon range from 2500 to 2000 would make a big difference, as less Gryphons could combine on 1 target and they would individually be more vulnerable.

...
Maybe lower Harbinger DP to 14, lol

O_O

I mean, sure, buff my favorite flagship to let me have more phase ships with a higher bonus... it's probably because I'm not as good with mines as other players (I can't seem to get the knack of doing the crazy things I've seen others do in video clips), but I do better with Harbingers than with Dooms as my player flagship.

I think the bigger issue with the Harbinger is that now that I've done a lot of experimentation, I'm never going to do anything other than phaser anchor + phase lances + advanced optics, ITU, and escort package. It's just such a dominant build!

[Killer of Fate]

@Thaago

Understood, nerfing Phase Lance

[Dadada]

Imo:


Threads:
Afflictor-P is undervalued. Raise DP cost from 6 to at least 7.
Raise it to 8.

Tridents still seem really bad. Are they? What could be done if they are?
Tridents need a buff.

Large missiles feels lacking in options
Hurricane needs a small buff, DEMs are another issue...


Probably already done:
what if we just... Doubled Gigacannon's damage?
Needs a major buff imo, well, but I think doubling the damage would be too much.


QOL:
Officers have issues because they're weird
Uncap officers, limit still applies to officers actually captaining a ship -> so no limit for the amount of unassigned officers you can have but for assigned ones the usual limits apply (8 and +2 with the skill).


Balance discussion about weapons:
can we talk about Kinetics?
And my post from this one:

Medium Energies are fine imo and feel good, but:
Sry, but I also think HBL is a**.
I feel like the Flux efficiency for Phase Lance was overbuffed a bit.
Waaait, 0.96 reduced Ion Beam flux hunger to 150/s? Ohhhhhh.

I think Alex wanted to buff HBL? But Phase Lance may be in need of a small nerf...


Tl;dr: And more of a feel thing: the 40DP remnant Battlecruiser Nova just doesn't cause the problems, the dread a Radiant does. Sure, it's 40DP but I wish it was a bit stronger. Don't get me wrong, it's fast, incredibly fast and well armed, it's strong, but... Well, I guess it does play its role well, the pounce is really dangerous if executed at the right time and/or on the right target.


Meh idea: Buff ITU on destroyers from 20% to 30% but in exchange remove 10% range from the EP bonus affecting destroyers near capitals.
Escort Package - The destroyer buff which more or less tethers some of them to a capital. No need to unbind unchain them but I kinda prefer them more mobile.

https://starsector.wiki.gg/wiki/Escort_Package
https://starsector.wiki.gg/wiki/Integrated_Targeting_Unit

A thing I do wish comes back is support fighters getting the ability to support a ship that isn't a parent carrier and give them some roam range, would make Support Fighter Herons (and other carriers) actually decent.

Sounds like an interesting idea... How about 2k range but they can only be deployed to friendly ships where they function as usual support fighters tethered to the ship they are deployed to? Well, I don't think support fighters need a buff but the idea just sounds neat.

Maybe a new class of wings, "heavy escort" with better defensive stats, higher firepower, with a downsized but reloading missile/bomb bonk but higher OP cost... Mmmm...

[Phenir]

Balance discussion about weapons:
can we talk about Kinetics?
And my post from this one:

Medium Energies are fine imo and feel good, but:
Sry, but I also think HBL is a**.
I feel like the Flux efficiency for Phase Lance was overbuffed a bit.
Waaait, 0.96 reduced Ion Beam flux hunger to 150/s? Ohhhhhh.

I think Alex wanted to buff HBL? But Phase Lance may be in need of a small nerf...

Not wanted to, he did buff it. Significantly. There's a thread about it in suggestions somewhere.