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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); In-development patch notes for Starsector 0.98a (2/8/25)

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Author Topic: Anubis-class Cruiser  (Read 33718 times)

TheLaughingDead

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #225 on: January 18, 2025, 07:41:09 PM »

Lance is okay.  If it should be changed, it ought to be more elite than HIL.  I see more HILs than lances used in posted videos.  The one memorable video that used lances that I remember was Paragon with High Scatter Amplifier for hard-flux lance.  Tachyon Lance does not need any nerfing.  Otherwise, HIL will be even better compared to lance.

Lances do best when either put on a ship meant to do hit-and-run or on ships meant to support other ships and secure kills.  It really helps to have high energy focus or be a phase ship, which is pretty much just the Sunder and Zigg.
I think they are discussing the Tachyon Lance, not the Phase Lance. Hence the comparison to the HIL (High Intensity Laser).
No, I think they are talking about the Tachyon Lance. The logic does apply equally to both; being burst weapons with significant refire time they outperform continuous weapons like the HIL during their uptime, which synergizes better phase ships & High Energy Focus ships.
Upon another reading I think you are right, they specifically addressed Sunder/Zig... but I am confused then, how does a Tachyon Lance suit 'hit-and-run' tactics as well? It is one of the highest range weapons in the game. If anything, I'd say an Autopulse fits hit-and-run way more by virtue of gaining charges while not firing and not having the range to compete with large ballistics.
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Chumbosity

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #226 on: January 18, 2025, 08:36:01 PM »

Lance is okay.  If it should be changed, it ought to be more elite than HIL.  I see more HILs than lances used in posted videos.  The one memorable video that used lances that I remember was Paragon with High Scatter Amplifier for hard-flux lance.  Tachyon Lance does not need any nerfing.  Otherwise, HIL will be even better compared to lance.

Lances do best when either put on a ship meant to do hit-and-run or on ships meant to support other ships and secure kills.  It really helps to have high energy focus or be a phase ship, which is pretty much just the Sunder and Zigg.
I think they are discussing the Tachyon Lance, not the Phase Lance. Hence the comparison to the HIL (High Intensity Laser).
No, I think they are talking about the Tachyon Lance. The logic does apply equally to both; being burst weapons with significant refire time they outperform continuous weapons like the HIL during their uptime, which synergizes better phase ships & High Energy Focus ships.
Upon another reading I think you are right, they specifically addressed Sunder/Zig... but I am confused then, how does a Tachyon Lance suit 'hit-and-run' tactics as well? It is one of the highest range weapons in the game. If anything, I'd say an Autopulse fits hit-and-run way more by virtue of gaining charges while not firing and not having the range to compete with large ballistics.
Same reason why the Autopulse fits hit-and-run tactics: deals massive damage in bursts but is outperformed by weapons with more sustained DPS if those sustained DPS weapons get to keep shooting. If you think about it, Tachyon Lance & Phase Lance gain charges while not firing as well; they just only have one charge.
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Princess of Evil

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #227 on: January 18, 2025, 09:45:23 PM »

Hit and run isn't about short range. In fact, most H&R weapons in the game are long range (except for Phase Lance and AMB). Short range weapons in this game are more about hitting, and then hitting a couple hundred times more.
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TheLaughingDead

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #228 on: January 19, 2025, 09:08:42 AM »

Hit and run isn't about short range. In fact, most H&R weapons in the game are long range (except for Phase Lance and AMB). Short range weapons in this game are more about hitting, and then hitting a couple hundred times more.
Hmm, maybe we are discussing two different definitions of 'hit-and-run' then?
To me, the 'and-run' part of 'hit-and-run' automatically assumes that the weapon has short range, since if you are outranging an enemy, then you don't need to run, you just need to hit.
And sure, Phase Anchor makes the Tachyon Lance charge faster, so you might see 'hit-and-phase', but you aren't phasing to escape damage from the enemy (unless they have some mildly longer range weapons, missiles, or fighters), you are doing it to recharge your weapons faster. A burst weapon does not automatically equal a hit-and-run weapon.
To take this concept to its logical extreme:
Imagine if the Tachyon Lance had 4000 range but was in every other way identical. You could use this as a 'hit-and-run' weapon, but considering the context it exists in (ie compared to the other weapons of Starsector), under no circumstances would you call this a 'hit-and-run' weapon. Or certainly I wouldn't, and I doubt many others would either.
The example's point is that range does actually factor into whether something is 'hit-and-run'. And my general point is that a Tachyon Lance isn't something that needs to do 'hit-and-run', because of its range.

Same reason why the Autopulse fits hit-and-run tactics: deals massive damage in bursts but is outperformed by weapons with more sustained DPS if those sustained DPS weapons get to keep shooting. If you think about it, Tachyon Lance & Phase Lance gain charges while not firing as well; they just only have one charge.
Now this point suggests that it is the damage that makes a weapon 'hit-and-run' and not the range. So for another example:
Why don't we call harpoons a 'hit-and-run' weapon? They do high burst damage but have lower sustained DPS than, say, Annihilators or Proximity Charge Launchers. When someone crafts a Gryphon doomstack, are they engaging in 'hit-and-run' tactics? I would say, no! Because of course, the reason why massed Harpoons work so well is their 2500 range, as opposed to the Annihilator's 1500 range and the Proximity Charge Launcher's 1000 (!) range. The extreme range allows Harpoons to finish off enemies that are retreating and generally keep enemies at bay without needing to run.
And if my missile example was insufficient, then imagine if the Zig or the Sunder could mount a Gauss Cannon. Wouldn't the Gauss Cannon function near-identically on a Sunder as a Tachyon Lance? A real-game example is the Manticore, which is basically a Sunder with missiles. I think it would. Wouldn't the Zig still enter and exit phase to speed up the reloading of its Gauss Cannons and evade missile fire? I think it would. But (I hope) we would still agree that a Gauss Cannon isn't a 'hit-and-run' weapon. This example I think illustrates my point that, although a Tachyon Lance has a lot of burst damage, the way it is being used is not as a hit-and-run weapon.
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Twilight Sentinel

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #229 on: January 19, 2025, 10:54:51 AM »

Hmm, maybe we are discussing two different definitions of 'hit-and-run' then?
Is phasing to let your very slow cooldown weapon recharge not a kind of hit-and-run?  I think you focused way too much on the point that I included the Sunder as an example of a ship that was well suited to use the tachyon lance.  I included that as an example of a ship that works well in the support role thanks to its ability.  While I included the Zigg because it works well in the role of hit-and-run.  Two separate examples for different uses for the tachyon lance.
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Princess of Evil

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #230 on: January 19, 2025, 11:22:03 AM »

A 4000 range tach lance would be an alright weapon, but worse than default. Default tach lance can already be too long range sometimes.
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Thaago

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #231 on: January 19, 2025, 11:27:13 AM »

A 4000 range tach lance would be an alright weapon, but worse than default. Default tach lance can already be too long range sometimes.

Would you mind explaining that? I'm scratching my head a bit as to why range is bad.
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #232 on: January 19, 2025, 11:39:48 AM »

A 4000 range tach lance would be an alright weapon, but worse than default. Default tach lance can already be too long range sometimes.

Would you mind explaining that? I'm scratching my head a bit as to why range is bad.
I'm guessing it has something to do with AI losing 0-flux burn forcing the Tachyon Lance to be more of a time-waster. Cause with lack of flux efficiency it doesn't actually force anything on a Remnant. It can only pierce through exhausted shields. And because it has FIRE_WHEN_INEFFICIENT tag it might cause some unwated flux spending...
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Princess of Evil

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #233 on: January 19, 2025, 11:51:11 AM »

It shoots, enemy takes it on shield, and proceeds to completely ignore you because most serious ships can just vent tach lance's 220 soft flux dps. I guess it'd be a hilarious frigate swatter, but tach lance is already extremely good against frigates. And meanwhile it just lost 0-flux and will have serious trouble getting in range of its anti-shield guns.
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TheLaughingDead

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #234 on: January 19, 2025, 12:44:32 PM »

A 4000 range tach lance would be an alright weapon, but worse than default. Default tach lance can already be too long range sometimes.
My argument wasn't that it would be better or worse, but that it wouldn't be categorized as a hit-and-run weapon.
I just also happen to think it would be better :)
One Tachyon Lance may be ineffectual (against Remnants, still quite potent against humans), but 4000 range would allow such overlapping fields of fire as to overload any shield generator. In combined arms I could agree it wouldn't be as good (still better than default) just because the Tachyon Lance can't fire over friendly ships and other weapons mounted would require the usual range band.
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Chumbosity

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #235 on: January 19, 2025, 01:29:57 PM »

The reason why you could classify a Tachyon Lance as a hit-and-run weapon is simply due to how its uptime works, not its damage or range. If you don't need to have a target in range of your Tachyon Lance 100% of the time in order to maximize its uptime, doing so just puts you at risk without gaining anything in return. Sustained fire weapons, meanwhile, always need to have targets in range or they lose out on DPS. A High Intensity Laser that is only able to hit a target for 1 second out of 10 is hitting a DPS of 50, a loss of 90%. A Tachyon Lance, meanwhile, hits a DPS of 224.9, a loss of only 35% of its DPS. This is all because of the differences in uptime between the two weapons; the High Intensity Laser is losing out on 9 seconds of potential uptime, whereas the Tachyon Lance - which has 5.5 seconds of wind up / wind down / cooldown time - only loses out on 3.5 seconds of potential uptime. This naturally ends up incentivizing hit-and-run tactics, as any time spent in range to hit with a Tachyon Lance that is on cooldown is time wasted; 5.5 seconds in range to fire with a Tachyon Lance on cooldown is 5.5 seconds that could've been spent firing a High Intensity Laser instead.
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TheLaughingDead

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #236 on: January 19, 2025, 03:52:03 PM »

Quote from: helias
Ahh okay, that is a very thorough breakdown and I see where you are coming from. I agree completely that a burst weapon is more suited for hit-and-run than a sustained DPS weapon. I believe where we disagree is on the potency of the Tachyon Lance in relation to the HIL. To me, they are equally effective even when not accounting for their "hit-and-run viability". And in the case where we account for their "hit-and-run viability", sure, a TL will outperform a HIL. But my point is really that a Tachyon Lance is not defined as a hit-and-run weapon because it has qualities that allow it to perform on par (or better than) with sustained DPS options, in a sustained DPS role. This is in comparison to, say, an Autopulse Laser, where there is no option except hit-and-run, and which I would consider to be more effective in that role than a Tachyon Lance. And if your argument is the same as Twilight Sentinel's, ie "Phasing is a type of running", then we can agree to disagree on what the 'run' part means!

In regards specifically to "time wasted when you could be firing an HIL", I don't consider the HIL to be flatly better than the Tachyon Lance even when accounting for staying within range to fire both. The Tachyon's burst allows for overloading shields, the EMP component is potent, and the damage is energy (so still halfway decent against shields if you can keep the pressure up). I consider the Tachyon to be similar to a Mjolnir, in that it doesn't get mounted as often as its less costly cousins; but when mounted, it performs according to the maintenance required to support it (in OP and flux).
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Chumbosity

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #237 on: January 19, 2025, 05:44:38 PM »

Oh, I'll agree with you that I don't consider the Tachyon Lance as a hit-and-run weapon myself, as I feel its long range is more important to it than its nature as a burst weapon. It's also much easier to compete with the HIL & Plasma Cannon as a sustained option than is is trying to compete with the Autopulse Laser as a burst option.
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Princess of Evil

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #238 on: January 19, 2025, 11:20:03 PM »

Tach lance doesn't compete with APL for the same reason your right hand doesn't compete with your left. APL is nearly pure anti-shield, tach is nearly pure antiarmor. You just use them together.
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TheLaughingDead

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Re: Anubis-class Cruiser
« Reply #239 on: January 20, 2025, 09:12:43 AM »

I agree, they work well as a pair.
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