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[Princess of Evil]

so, what's your build?

Just your basic SO build, ACGs and your pick of anti-shield. It has some trouble with same weight targets until the enemy runs out of missiles, then just bursts all over them. Choice of normal/P is whether you want to kill bigger targets or smaller ones.

Okay, what's your non-SO build?

The boring one, a mix of HVDs and harpoons.

Heck, if its venting thats usually a good thing, it means that its been doing a lot of damage to the enemy to have built up soft flux!

No, it just means it ran away after maxing out hard flux.

[Killer of Fate]

note Hammerhead with Mauler and Velociraptor is really strong, whilst Arbalest, Heavy Mortar Arbalest isn't because of the current hardpoint glitch

After the next update this should be somewhat fixed, and Hammerhead could see far more play by the virtue of it having stronger options

Just saw this again; what is the hardpoint bug/glitch you keep referencing? The aiming issue? That's really only a problem with fast frigates and fighters not taking into account their own strafing speed, it doesn't effect destroyers very much if at all. Currently Heavy Mortar is strong on the Hammerhead thanks to the reduced recoil. Imo its the best weapon for the ship's mediums, or it could go with 1 and a 3rd kinetic if facing shield tanks.

Well... I can't find the reference right now, and I don't see it in gameplay as I try to prove it, and I'm too tired to dig further... So, I'm just gonna say that I might be wrong.

But I swear that I saw someone discuss accuracy of hardpoints with something as slow as a Rampart. And Alex responding that this is how accuracy looks like in dev build in response to a post about AI fixes...

So, I took that at face value and assume that's how it worked. But honestly, I wasn't even aware that there was a bug to begin with and only noticed it after someone posted about it. And then I realised why Brawlers and Hounds felt so weak...

I dunno at this point... I will stop spreading this info until I find out further information about the subject

[PixiCode]

Why would I pay 10 DP for a Hammerhead when I can pay 11 DP for the same kinetic firepower on a Shrike with CH Sarissa? The only downside is OP cost, which is negligible as you don't have to pay for as many vents thanks to the kinetic damage being free.

There’s more than one downside.

Sarissa don’t benefit from target analysis, ballistic mastery, cyber augmentation or Wolfpack damage bonuses. There’s a few reasons to want to officer a destroyer. You’re stacking officers via mercenary generation, it’s early game, you’re using support doctrine so lower DP cost officer ships give you more SD value on paper, you want an escort destroyer buffed by big escort package bonuses, you want small ships with decent speed for point capture guerrilla tactics or you’re using them as SO ships for some SO swarm.

The OP savings on vents are not as valuable for a medium energy ship which probably ends up needing OP in vents or caps to handle its medium energy.

Sarissa do eventually get sniped, the downsides of CH leading to a 30% replacement rate doom spiral.

Sarissa cannot benefit from escort package and ITU like hammerhead or even Shrike can. Shrike and Sarissa also can’t benefit from BRF.

Hammerhead does not have plasma burn, making it fit more types of fleets than the Shrike does, which requires either very careful micro or a fleet designed for plasma burn to work since the shrike will constantly force itself into danger.

Sarissa and Shrike both not benefitting from AAF, nor having more than 1 light Needler or railgun.

Shrike isn’t exactly the best at hunting down frigates either. When I used Shrikes I felt their best uses were for CH tactics and for aggressive short range tactics. Typically when a Shrike’s attacking a frigate it’s either so weak it doesn’t matter if you hunted it down or annoying enough the shrike struggles to hunt it down; Glimmer, Lux, SO frigates, Wolf. Maybe you could get it to more quickly hunt down frigates with harpoon or gorgons but then that leaves you praying the missiles actually get used against frigates or hoping the frigate doesn’t just avoid the harpoons with pd+backing away. Sabots could be the play instead but then you have to rely on AMB or its medium energy on getting the kill, while the frigate is likely already retreating with its 135+ speed.

The Hammerhead can effectively escort burst mobility ships besides the Nova because escort package boosts its 90 top speed, too. Nova I doubt hammerhead can keep up, I would suggest shrike can’t either but I haven’t tried it, maybe it’ll keep up.

When you say retreat AI you mean specifically the retreat command? That’s such a niche thing relevant to point capture guerrilla tactics or fighter swarm playstyles. For both of them you’d probably benefit from having some slower ships than the hammerhead - like the Heron, Astral or maybe an Odyssey. I think without system expertise, Hammerhead without escort package would keep an even pace with an Odyssey in long distances. Even if you don’t, both of those tactics should be able to retreat as a group with no issue. Taking a few extra seconds to get out wouldn’t matter unless you’re losing.

If you’re retreating because you’re losing, Shrike would be better at that but I don’t think that’s a valuable trait to single out as an upside for a combat ship.

P.S. I’ve been experimenting with replacing CH Sarissa with elite point defense CH DTA Broadsword or even Gladius. On paper they end up being similar, except +2 DP instead of +3. Not trying to imply anything here besides sharing that weird thought, requires more comparison testing.

[Selfcontrol]

I'd rather give the Hammerhead more armor / flux capacity instead of composite small slots that will further increase its SO potential while not fixing its garbage-tiers "lategame" potential :/

Especially since we all know that current SO days are numbered. It will be reworked one day.

My problem with the Hammerhead is that the moment any cruiser-sized ship look at it the wrong, it dies. It needs to be on the offensive since you want to shoot all of its weapons but having good speed and maneuverability means nothing in lategame because cruisers have a lot of range and lots of firepower. When my Hammerheads try to approach a cruiser, by the time they start shooting, they are already at half flux because a cruiser has lots of firepower and better range. They simply cannot brawl in lategame ... but they also cannot retreat. In lategame, either you outspeed your opponent by 70+ su or have a mobility ship system (looking at you, Phase Skimmer), or you die.

That's a good point re: SO. That could very much change so its not worth really balancing around.

I disagree with you saying it dies the moment a cruiser looks at it though, and I have no problems with it brawling except against radiants and novas (optimized destroyer hunter and teleporting super-cap). The Hammerhead's defenses are pretty much the definition of "fine" so it can take a bunch of hits from normal ships. It does really want capacitors though; base 4200 means that getting 20 on it almost doubles its shield HP! Putting less hullmods on to get caps is usually a good call.

If its charging alone against a fresh, 0-flux enemy medium cruiser - yeah, it's probably going to bounce off and not really do much. Or if its a fast cruiser, the HH could be in real trouble (though a well built player HH usually stalemates an AI built falcon with equal officers, so it needs to be like an eradicator or bigger). But its also charging at something that is higher DP so is that really a problem? Some allied support in the area like another destroyer or a few frigates changes the situation a lot.

By endgame the HH is basically an "infantry" unit in a meta dominated by artillery, armored cavalry, and cruise missile strikes.

I know it's a midline ship. I do invest into caps but its performances are still abysmal compared to any other destroyer in lategame. I mean, I can make all destroyers work in "lategame" ... except for the Hammerhead.

Most of them are stuck to escort duty (with the notable exception of the Medusa which can be built either as a great escort and also a great offensive destroyer), sure, but at least I don't actively find myself gimping my fleet. The Hammerhead is the only destroyer that leaves me wondering "Why do I even bother with it ?".

And according to Alex, there is still no proper lategame in the game. If the Hammerhead is already struggling as it is, I shiver to think how irrelevant it's going to be in further versions.

[PixiCode]

Most of them are stuck to escort duty (with the notable exception of the Medusa which can be built either as a great escort and also a great offensive destroyer), sure, but at least I don't actively find myself gimping my fleet. The Hammerhead is the only destroyer that leaves me wondering "Why do I even bother with it ?".

The answer is that you didn’t have the 1 or 2 DP for a manticore or Sunder, but still wanted an escort destroyer. That’s not the best answer and why I’m not against some sort of small Hammerhead buff, but I also think it’s in an OK spot because of that. I don’t think it gimps your fleet provided the Hammerhead build is good and is given some basic commands. I’ve been arguing against 8 DP Hammerhead in this thread mainly because I think the only things keeping Enforcer and Shrike OK are their DP costs, Hammerhead shouldn’t intrude on that imo. I kinda worry Enforcer isn’t OK despite that but that’s a different thread and not a high priority, it still has nice uses.

To reiterate, my preferred buff to investigate would be 10 top speed buff, bringing it to 100 like the Medusa and Shrike, but without their respective mobility systems or the Shrike’s cheapness.

[Selfcontrol]

I'm not arguing in favor of reducing the Hammerhead DP cost. I'd rather see its stat(s) straight up buffed too.

[Killer of Fate]

Most of them are stuck to escort duty (with the notable exception of the Medusa which can be built either as a great escort and also a great offensive destroyer), sure, but at least I don't actively find myself gimping my fleet. The Hammerhead is the only destroyer that leaves me wondering "Why do I even bother with it ?".

And according to Alex, there is still no proper lategame in the game. If the Hammerhead is already struggling as it is, I shiver to think how irrelevant it's going to be in further versions.

Maybe what dev means by this is the fact that Remnants aren't a proper fleshed out late game but only an optional challenge that gets stale really quickly due to a lack of variety or reason to fight them except "look at how cool I am at this game"

[PixiCode]

I'm not arguing in favor of reducing the Hammerhead DP cost. I'd rather see its stat(s) straight up buffed too.

Sorry I didn’t mean to imply you were, I just had a feeling that topic might come up from someone else so I mentioned my reasoning to cover that. More than just us are in the thread after all, hehe.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

Spoiler

Why would I pay 10 DP for a Hammerhead when I can pay 11 DP for the same kinetic firepower on a Shrike with CH Sarissa? The only downside is OP cost, which is negligible as you don't have to pay for as many vents thanks to the kinetic damage being free.

There’s more than one downside.

Sarissa don’t benefit from target analysis, ballistic mastery, cyber augmentation or Wolfpack damage bonuses. There’s a few reasons to want to officer a destroyer. You’re stacking officers via mercenary generation, it’s early game, you’re using support doctrine so lower DP cost officer ships give you more SD value on paper, you want an escort destroyer buffed by big escort package bonuses, you want small ships with decent speed for point capture guerrilla tactics or you’re using them as SO ships for some SO swarm.

The OP savings on vents are not as valuable for a medium energy ship which probably ends up needing OP in vents or caps to handle its medium energy.

Sarissa do eventually get sniped, the downsides of CH leading to a 30% replacement rate doom spiral.

Sarissa cannot benefit from escort package and ITU like hammerhead or even Shrike can. Shrike and Sarissa also can’t benefit from BRF.

Hammerhead does not have plasma burn, making it fit more types of fleets than the Shrike does, which requires either very careful micro or a fleet designed for plasma burn to work since the shrike will constantly force itself into danger.

Sarissa and Shrike both not benefitting from AAF, nor having more than 1 light Needler or railgun.

Shrike isn’t exactly the best at hunting down frigates either. When I used Shrikes I felt their best uses were for CH tactics and for aggressive short range tactics. Typically when a Shrike’s attacking a frigate it’s either so weak it doesn’t matter if you hunted it down or annoying enough the shrike struggles to hunt it down; Glimmer, Lux, SO frigates, Wolf. Maybe you could get it to more quickly hunt down frigates with harpoon or gorgons but then that leaves you praying the missiles actually get used against frigates or hoping the frigate doesn’t just avoid the harpoons with pd+backing away. Sabots could be the play instead but then you have to rely on AMB or its medium energy on getting the kill, while the frigate is likely already retreating with its 135+ speed.

The Hammerhead can effectively escort burst mobility ships besides the Nova because escort package boosts its 90 top speed, too. Nova I doubt hammerhead can keep up, I would suggest shrike can’t either but I haven’t tried it, maybe it’ll keep up.

When you say retreat AI you mean specifically the retreat command? That’s such a niche thing relevant to point capture guerrilla tactics or fighter swarm playstyles. For both of them you’d probably benefit from having some slower ships than the hammerhead - like the Heron, Astral or maybe an Odyssey. I think without system expertise, Hammerhead without escort package would keep an even pace with an Odyssey in long distances. Even if you don’t, both of those tactics should be able to retreat as a group with no issue. Taking a few extra seconds to get out wouldn’t matter unless you’re losing.

If you’re retreating because you’re losing, Shrike would be better at that but I don’t think that’s a valuable trait to single out as an upside for a combat ship.

P.S. I’ve been experimenting with replacing CH Sarissa with elite point defense CH DTA Broadsword or even Gladius. On paper they end up being similar, except +2 DP instead of +3. Not trying to imply anything here besides sharing that weird thought, requires more comparison testing.

[close]

Those downsides assume you want more range and damage against larger ships, on destroyers that most notably struggle to be useful in the range department and against larger ships. Beam Shrike is a partial exception to this.

Shrike can be used with officers but is best with SD due to how cheap it already is, and it gets a DP efficiency buff due to rounding to the nearest whole number. 8 * .8 = 6.4 = 6

It's rare to see a replacement rate of 30%, as Sarissa are very tanky and canister flak helps to keep them alive.

Neither ship cares much for range outside the very early game as both get terribly out competed by Cruiser range, and lack DPS when their range is buffed to the max. BRF isn't worth using for the most part on ships without a large mount.

Which is why Shrike is a frigate hunter in the early game. Medium to late game it has to be an escort or beam boat.

Sarissa have a sustained kinetic DPS of 372 (100*2*3*.62) and a burst of 600. All of which is free for the parent ship. AAF only reliably surpasses it in the face of extreme enemy PD, or System Expertise with Heavy Autocannon or Heavy Needler.

Phase Lance in the medium + Sarissa kills most frigates thanks to overloading. Throwing Sabots on helps to guarantee kills against the Tempest. Scarab and sometimes Omen are fine thanks to their systems.

Shrikes can keep up with the Nova thanks to Plasma Burn. I know this with certainty as I use them as a PD boat for my Novas.

Retreat Command AI is broken. The Hammerheads lack of large mount also makes it harder for it to repel enemies while retreating. As such it tends to need to be the first ship out, with the obvious exception of carriers. This means it can't be brought with faster fleets like Aurora or Odyssey centric fleets as it will either be left behind or will be forced to leave behind the fleet to cover for it. Carriers don't have this issue as much thanks to them having 4,000 range.

You tend to need to retreat in longer engagements, as you get more combat time from PPT rather than letting CR tick down. In the mid game, you're likely to fight a significantly larger fleet. Baiting the enemy to only deploy a small portion using one or two of your ships, tricking them to follow you to your spawn, deploying your full force to take them out, and then retreating is a very safe way to handle larger fleets.

[PixiCode]

Sarissa die pretty readily in my experience against remnant, it’s hit or miss against other factions. To reiterate, the value of a frigate hunter like Shrike early game isn’t particularly high. What are you hunting? Vanguards, Hounds, Cerberus, Brawlers, Wolves, Kites, Lashers, Omens, Tempests, maybe even a Hyperion, stuff like that. Is it really worth relying on Shrike to handle those when you have many other options? Vanguard can be really annoying and a phase Lance Shrike can maybe do some damage as long as it focuses on the vanguard. Otherwise II feel like the Shrike is either overkill or not even good at killing said frigate. That’s why I said I don’t really care for Shrike for frigate hunting.

BRF is valuable for ships without a large ballistic if it affects a majority of their DPS and reaches range multipliers like capital ships or better. Escort package hammerhead fits into both camps, though the opportunity cost of other things like vents probably comes out with only using BRF on it with smods.

You mention deploying your full force (how do you keep 3 points captured for 240 dp deployment with your strategy and also luring the enemy into your spawn?) for your playstyle. What’s keeping hammerhead from retreating in your playstyle, can’t it just keep pace with the Aurora or Odyssey and retreat at the same time? Aurora and odyssey have more ppt than shrike or hammerhead too so if your ppt is an issue then they should be the first to leave anyway.

SD gives the same benefit regardless of how cheap or expensive a ship is, though the rounding to -2 discount is unique to Shrike for sure. Still, since were limited by the 30 ship limit and ships with officers do not count for the SD benefits, the player should be incentivized to either have as few officers or possible (hello missile/fighter spam) or use officers on the cheapest DP ships of your fleet, which thankfully has wolfpack to benefit from if those cheap DP ships are frigates or destroyers. If the 30 ship limit wasn’t there then SD shrikes would be a funny value proposition though, hehe. Imagine it, 30 SD shrikes with sarissas and dragonfires or something and then 10 officered LP brawlers. Probably not the best idea but it would be a starting point to refine out from.

I feel like we’ve run the course of the discussion and risk going in circles from here. I appreciate the perspective but I still don’t see it and you don’t see what I’m saying.

[Wyvern]

Lots of discussion here, haven't really followed... but I'll drop my proverbial two cents in anyway:

I want to see the Hammerhead get its PD coverage back. And if that means turning the rear two turrets from hybrid into energy, then so be it.

As is, any hammerhead build I actually use these days (and it's not my favorite destroyer to start with) will leave those back two slots empty and use converted hangar to get the actually-functional PD coverage it used to be able to achieve with a pair of LRPD.

[Thaago]

While I like Sarissas a lot and I'm not saying a Shrike with CH them is bad, I've had issues relying on them for kinetic damage. They tend to point in the wrong direction a lot!

...

I want to see the Hammerhead get its PD coverage back. And if that means turning the rear two turrets from hybrid into energy, then so be it.

As is, any hammerhead build I actually use these days (and it's not my favorite destroyer to start with) will leave those back two slots empty and use converted hangar to get the actually-functional PD coverage it used to be able to achieve with a pair of LRPD.

That's my main ask as well. Are you using DTA Wasps by chance for your PD? I've had great success with them, and they're OP cheap.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

Spoiler

Sarissa die pretty readily in my experience against remnant, it’s hit or miss against other factions. To reiterate, the value of a frigate hunter like Shrike early game isn’t particularly high. What are you hunting? Vanguards, Hounds, Cerberus, Brawlers, Wolves, Kites, Lashers, Omens, Tempests, maybe even a Hyperion, stuff like that. Is it really worth relying on Shrike to handle those when you have many other options? Vanguard can be really annoying and a phase Lance Shrike can maybe do some damage as long as it focuses on the vanguard. Otherwise II feel like the Shrike is either overkill or not even good at killing said frigate. That’s why I said I don’t really care for Shrike for frigate hunting.

[close]

There are better options, but the Shrike is common, better at it then Hammerhead, and has useful roles it can be transferred to late game. That was the point I was making.

Spoiler

BRF is valuable for ships without a large ballistic if it affects a majority of their DPS and reaches range multipliers like capital ships or better. Escort package hammerhead fits into both camps, though the opportunity cost of other things like vents probably comes out with only using BRF on it with smods.

[close]

Without a large ballistic mount, it pushes it into Cruiser range. To get large mount capital range on small + medium ballistics with BRF you need a large mount, ITU, and escort package.

Spoiler

You mention deploying your full force (how do you keep 3 points captured for 240 dp deployment with your strategy and also luring the enemy into your spawn?) for your playstyle. What’s keeping hammerhead from retreating in your playstyle, can’t it just keep pace with the Aurora or Odyssey and retreat at the same time? Aurora and odyssey have more ppt than shrike or hammerhead too so if your ppt is an issue then they should be the first to leave anyway.

[close]

Midgame, as in you have one or two capitals, can reliably fight the harder but not hardest bounties, and are not yet at full fleet strength in DP, Officers, and s-mods. Most of my midgame tends to be bounty hunting so I can accrue enough story points, xp, and money to finish my fleet for late game, so I tend to operate sub 200, around 120-160 DP. As for PPT, Shrike/Hammerhead have decent PPT and can be boosted to near capital range. So, when they start to run out of PPT, the capitals and cruisers shouldn't be far behind. Having a fleet of ships with nearly matching speed, escorts being slightly faster, allows the fleet to retreat as one group and cover each other.

Spoiler

SD gives the same benefit regardless of how cheap or expensive a ship is, though the rounding to -2 discount is unique to Shrike for sure. Still, since were limited by the 30 ship limit and ships with officers do not count for the SD benefits, the player should be incentivized to either have as few officers or possible (hello missile/fighter spam) or use officers on the cheapest DP ships of your fleet, which thankfully has wolfpack to benefit from if those cheap DP ships are frigates or destroyers. If the 30 ship limit wasn’t there then SD shrikes would be a funny value proposition though, hehe. Imagine it, 30 SD shrikes with sarissas and dragonfires or something and then 10 officered LP brawlers. Probably not the best idea but it would be a starting point to refine out from.

[close]

Some ships are greater or lesser than 20% DP off with SD. When fully building your fleet having a few ships that are greater than 20% DP off can allow you to deploy ships that are less than 20% DP off, or even deploy more ships in total.
You don't make a fleet of entirely SD Shrikes as their only useful roles late game are as an escort or a beam ship. SD is typically weaker than BOTB except when using Automated Ships, as SD also decreases Automated Ship point cost thereby allowing the use of more automated ships and increasing CR for the same volume of ships if it goes over the 120 DP soft cap.

[Wyvern]

That's my main ask as well. Are you using DTA Wasps by chance for your PD? I've had great success with them, and they're OP cheap.

Wasps are cheap, yes, but they're not my go-to choice; if I'm investing in Converted Hanger I'll usually go whole hog and install Xyphos; those cover PD *and* add significant EMP to complement the ship's main guns.

Also fun: DTA longbows. Get that double burst PD, and re-arming sabots that'll randomly target things in your vicinity.

[PixiCode]

Some ships are greater or lesser than 20% DP off with SD. When fully building your fleet having a few ships that are greater than 20% DP off can allow you to deploy ships that are less than 20% DP off, or even deploy more ships in total.
You don't make a fleet of entirely SD Shrikes as their only useful roles late game are as an escort or a beam ship. SD is typically weaker than BOTB except when using Automated Ships, as SD also decreases Automated Ship point cost thereby allowing the use of more automated ships and increasing CR for the same volume of ships if it goes over the 120 DP soft cap.

you missed my point, “Shrike can be used with officers but is best with SD due to how cheap it already is” is a statement with nothing backing it up. The rounding difference is, but that’s unique to Shrike and just a handful of other ships, mostly cheaper ships (either being worse or better than 20%)

What I’ve been saying is, having 60 DP spent on officers and 180 dp of support doctrine is more support doctrine value than 180 DP of officered ships and 60 support doctrine. Like you say, it competes for BotB so I see no reason to use SD unless you actually maximize its effectiveness. If Wolfpack didn’t exist I’d never see any reason to use SD besides missile/fighter spam, where dp efficiency of missiles/flight decks is more valuable since they snowball the more you have

Also I do make a fleet of many shrikes - I made an endgame fleet of iirc 10 or so officered shrikes before and it was pretty nice. It’s not ‘meta’ but it worked nicely as a mobile faux frontline with CH talons that could dash in and reposition the moment any shift happened. Was a full SO fleet. I said that 30 shrike fleet was just a starting point to optimize from, anyway. The idea would be to spread the enemy thin them pounce on weak points. Would probably end up removing a few shrikes or LP brawlers for some carriers, missile boats or omens.