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Author Topic: Ships I don't like  (Read 6016 times)

Lawrence Master-blaster

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Ships I don't like
« on: November 29, 2024, 09:54:08 PM »

Venture - Apogee is the best exploration ship in the game, but even if you fully explore the sector you will maybe find 3 of them(including the one you start with) Meanwhile Ventures are dime a dozen. Hovewer no matter how much I tried I could never make an exploration Venture worth a damn. Civilian sensor profile/strength penalty is not suited for exploration at all, so it needs Militarized Subsystems, which cuts into its already strained OP pool and gets rid of one of its few advantages - 9 burn with Bulk Transport. Fast Missile Racks without Expanded Missile Racks(because good luck fitting it in there) basically limits its missiles to entirely support role. I thought the Pirate version would be its saving grace when it released, but it has even more OP issues than the base variant. Venture is also a lowtech ship through and through, which means it has bad flux dissipation and capacity. And even if you were mad enough to try and armor tank a civilian cruiser, crew losses is the last thing you need when you're 50ly away from Corvus.

Champion - Its ship system favors energy weapons even though it absolutely requires kinetics in the medium hybrid slots to function. If you don't put kinetics in there then it can only tickle the enemy at long range, if you do put kinetics in there then half of the ship system is wasted, if you opt for medium range weapons(which is pretty much required for kinetics regardless) then it's too slow to actually put them to good use because it carries too much armor for a shield-tanked ship! And before you ask - no, Squall alone does not work as a kinetic damage source. Champion is the exact opposite of what a midline ship should be, isntead of doing one thing well, it tries to be everything simultaneously underperforms at all of them.

Invictus - A massive slab of metal-meat with special armor that makes it last beyond even other lowtech capitals, with weapon emplacements pointing in every direction, canister flak and even an extra wing of defense fighters, its main role is... to stay far away from actual combat and "snipe" using the LIDAR array. I don't think there is a ship with more mismatched system than the Invictus. I mean sure, technically you can use LIDAR at point blank range too but... why would you? I just find it weird that the ship system screams "glass cannon" but it's on arguably one of the tankiest ships in the game instead. You know what would be cool? If Retribution and Invictus swapped systems. Imagine the Invictus Orion-ing right into the enemy line, not even able to stop in time because of its terrible maneouverability, while it blasts in every direction. It would be hilarious if nothing else(also kind of terrifying if you were on the receiving end of it)

Eag;e - we don't talk about the Eagle
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Spyro

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2024, 11:35:21 PM »

Venture - I can definitely understand your feelings, the logistical footprint is truly horrible to play around with early game. Burn 7 is too crippling even if there are ways to mitigate it. Pirate one is at least a fun missile spammer that's cheap in DP.

Champion - This might be the first time I'm hearing somebody is not a fan of this ship. HEF is almost like a cherry on top, it doesn't feel wasted to mount kinetics in mediums when the large energy is the star of the show. In fact I'm sad that this was supposed to be a ship where the Paladin is worthwhile, and it turned out to be the opposite; the mount layout screams "put assault weapon here!".

That said you can still easily run s-modded Exp Mags and then go with Autopulse + 2 Autolances and even throw a couple of AMBs on the front. Gravitons + HIL or Tachyon is worse than the HVD setup but this one works with Advanced Optics. See, there's more than one build.

Invictus - Invictus with Orion Device would be a 45 DP ship. It needs to have something very powerful to warrant its dreadnought name and 60 DP cost. It doesn't scream glass cannon to me at all. Also why would it stay away from combat with such armor and hull stats? That seems like a waste of a big capital.
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Ptirodaktill

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2024, 01:02:34 AM »

Vigilance It drop a missile, then it explode. Its the only frigate in the game that i never use.
Enforcer slow brick that exist to be blown appart. Does nothing at extreamly slow speed.
Dominator a rule of thumb - Onslauth is better that 2 doms. And 10 DP cheaper.
Legion XIV is kinda usable. kinda. Slow brick with a bunch of overnerfed fighters.
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ubernoob

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2024, 03:53:54 AM »

Conquests - I just don't find them worthwhile this update. They're too slow to maneuver around the map and kite or rush like other battlecruisers, cost too much for what they bring to the table and don't benefit as much from buff stacking like some other ships do. They're alright until I get something better.



They're in a weird spot where :

2 Gryphons cost the same, have more speed (and you can reasonably run Unstable Injector on them if you're using only PD) and have more missiles with it's ability, especially Harpoons. You can also put them on the backline and run Nav Relay + ECM package for fleet buffs and they'll still shoot their missiles.

Atlas Mk2 has 2 large missiles, 2 large ballistics + AAF for 24DP, Onslaught and Legion also bring a lot of missiles while still having respectable stats for 40DP. Executor has much better protection, loads of mounts + HEF and 50 base speed. Conquest all-round feels bad for it's DP, 2 Large and medium ballistics + missiles is nice but by themselves aren't worth 40DP.

Properly built SO cruisers have so much speed, high DPS weapons selection and stats where SO cruisers seriously compete with battlecruisers at comparable DP or less.


Conquests just lose once an actual capital appears.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2024, 04:58:06 AM by ubernoob »
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Princess of Evil

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2024, 04:49:02 AM »

I'd use conquest if it had 6 large ballistics. It's supposed to be a "high damage" battlecruiser as opposed to a mobile one, but large ballistics for all their upsides are kind of slot inefficient, and the 2plas oddy just does its job way better.
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Dantalion

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2024, 06:09:25 AM »


Invictus - A massive slab of metal-meat with special armor that makes it last beyond even other lowtech capitals, with weapon emplacements pointing in every direction, canister flak and even an extra wing of defense fighters, its main role is... to stay far away from actual combat and "snipe" using the LIDAR array. I don't think there is a ship with more mismatched system than the Invictus. I mean sure, technically you can use LIDAR at point blank range too but... why would you? I just find it weird that the ship system screams "glass cannon" but it's on arguably one of the tankiest ships in the game instead. You know what would be cool? If Retribution and Invictus swapped systems. Imagine the Invictus Orion-ing right into the enemy line, not even able to stop in time because of its terrible maneouverability, while it blasts in every direction. It would be hilarious if nothing else(also kind of terrifying if you were on the receiving end of it)

Eag;e - we don't talk about the Eagle

I love Invictus. I usually go for a long range fighting build. Invictus in front, Astral with torpedo bombers in the back.
Even if the enemy closes distance invictus with heavy armor is quite tanky. And the assisting torpedo bombers of the astral will help quickly finishing any enemy ship.
I equip them with 4 different heavy cannons, helllbore, hephaestos, gauss and mjollnir. They can burst light and medium ships with ease only tricky thing is sometimes phase ships.
Expanded Magazines is quite good for them.

I use a small amount of Eagle's to chase down leftover enemies in a re-engage in early game, in late game I switch to Medusas.

All small ships I dislike most of the small ships, except phase ships and Medusas. Sure speed is an option, but I prefer a solid fleet of medium to bigger ships.

Spoiler
Ziggurat  I think the Ziggurat is simply too weak. The only thing that makes it scary when you encounter it, is it's looks. And when you salvage it and put it in your fleet it seems to underperform. A unique ship like that should be maybe stronger.
[close]
« Last Edit: November 30, 2024, 06:14:58 AM by Dantalion »
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Mishrak

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2024, 06:30:56 AM »

Champion - Its ship system favors energy weapons even though it absolutely requires kinetics in the medium hybrid slots to function. If you don't put kinetics in there then it can only tickle the enemy at long range, if you do put kinetics in there then half of the ship system is wasted, if you opt for medium range weapons(which is pretty much required for kinetics regardless) then it's too slow to actually put them to good use because it carries too much armor for a shield-tanked ship! And before you ask - no, Squall alone does not work as a kinetic damage source. Champion is the exact opposite of what a midline ship should be, isntead of doing one thing well, it tries to be everything simultaneously underperforms at all of them.

Invictus - A massive slab of metal-meat with special armor that makes it last beyond even other lowtech capitals, with weapon emplacements pointing in every direction, canister flak and even an extra wing of defense fighters, its main role is... to stay far away from actual combat and "snipe" using the LIDAR array. I don't think there is a ship with more mismatched system than the Invictus. I mean sure, technically you can use LIDAR at point blank range too but... why would you? I just find it weird that the ship system screams "glass cannon" but it's on arguably one of the tankiest ships in the game instead. You know what would be cool? If Retribution and Invictus swapped systems. Imagine the Invictus Orion-ing right into the enemy line, not even able to stop in time because of its terrible maneouverability, while it blasts in every direction. It would be hilarious if nothing else(also kind of terrifying if you were on the receiving end of it)

Eag;e - we don't talk about the Eagle

Invictus - this ship is bananas powerful, but it's just boring to me.  At some point eviscerating entire fleets with quad mjolnir gets old.

Champion - HEF + Large energy and a Large missile makes it pretty versatile.  I do agree that the ballistics are fairly awkward, and it sort of becomes a cruiser-sized Sunder at long range.  The old SO fit was Plasma + Hammer, but I haven't really gotten to try that out in this version.

I put the Conquest to real use my last playthrough and it was regularly one of the most damaging ships I fielded for my fleet comp.  I am definitely a Gauss Conquest shill now.  However, I'd love for it to have a bit better flux personally.  It really has problems at close range.

We don't talk about the Eagle.
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FooF

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2024, 07:09:24 AM »

Venture: I'd say it's fine for what it is, a cheap brick. I see the Venture as less of a player ship and mostly to fill out enemy pirate/pather fleets with a target that doesn't crumple immediately. Any kind of buff to this ship would make fighting early game enemies more difficult, which I don't think is needed.

Champion: The Hybrid slots are a feature, not a bug. The original idea was "what if there was a ship with a Large Energy and HEF that gave the player a choice to go Ballistics (for the more efficient damage type) or Energy (to make use of the ship system) on the secondary armament?" All of that was quite intentional and part of the design. Granted, Assault Energies do lack range but with HEF (and Energy Mastery), they can easily hit +60-70% damage. Also, you can totally get away with a single Heavy Needler in one slot and a Phase Lance in the other, paired with something more generalist like an Autopulse or Plasma Cannon. The Champion is also one of the few ships that can fully utilize the Hammer Barrage.

Invictus: You forget your history. The original dreadnought (and later battleship) design was to put as many "big" guns on target (outranging the enemy), while being able to withstand the same caliber fire from an opposing ship. The Invictus fits this to a "T". 4 Large Ballistics at extreme range (with extra RoF!) and can tank a whole fleet. It's a welcome addition to the game and it's interesting enough to set it apart from the rest of the Low Tech capital options.

Eagle: We love to talk about the Eagle. It is the new "is the Conquest good" meme.  :D
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Bungee_man

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2024, 07:14:12 AM »

Others' ships:

On the Conquest, it's a very high-skill high-reward ship. It really shines in the mission, where you use its speed and burst damage to tear apart a much larger Hegemony fleet. It's a good ship that a lot of people have used to great effect, especially with proper support. It's like the Odyssey, but for people who like the green tree better than the red tree.

On the Champion, I thought it was really tough and dangerous on my first go, but struggled to make use of it at any point thereafter. On a League/midline fleet, all I could do was stick PD on it and use it as an escort for something larger. It's too fragile to hold up under fire, and too slow to get out of trouble.

On the Eagle, it's a really fun ship that's just too fragile for late game. Builds I've seen amount to assault (3x phase lance) and harassment (3x IRA or ion beam), with the first getting beaten up in chaotic situations and the second not earning its DP cost.

On the Venture, yeah, it's got a lot of issues. Painful to have to keep alive in that one mission, given that its AI seems to have a death wish, and it doesn't really have many uses besides. Its missiles are passable but limited, and its ballistic/energy mounts combined with its flux stats don't let it do much. It could be decent as a logistics/exploration ship, but it seems to operate under the assumption that its combat value is so spectacular as to make it worth carting around despite significant supply costs and 7 burn.

Invictus is cool, and definitely doesn't have to be a sniper. I'd argue that you're missing out on half of its value if that's how you use it. It should be absorbing damage while also dealing damage, even if not to/from the same ship. You can get really aggressive with it with only minimal escort. Big downside is that there's only one real 'build' for it - it plays the same no matter what gear you use.



My ships:


Gryphons are great en masse, but their AI seems to love getting them killed in smaller numbers. It's a shame, since the niche of 'lobs missiles from behind a tankier ship' could be really cool with the kinks ironed out.

Retribution tries to be a premium Aurora, but ends up being the Aurora from Temu. It'll take some damage in every engagement, has cardboard armor, and needs more planning to ensure an escape route. Other than that, it fills the same role of moving around quickly and harassing targets. Upgrading its armor significantly wouldn't make it OP - AI Retribution is useless right now, and player Retribution needs some kind of edge over an Odyssey or an Aurora.

Shrikes tend to just get themselves killed immediately in AI hands. A player Shrike with a really well-designed build and some red tree investment might do okay, but how long is a player going to be piloting a destroyer for?

Brawlers are another ship I liked in my first run because they seemed well-armed and dangerous, but they're just not that good (aside from the absolutely insane LP version). They're too slow to do frigate things, and their two medium mounts don't really get much done against larger ships. It's supposed to be a tough frigate that can punch up, but it just ends up getting cut up from behind by faster frigates or destroyed by errant fire from its larger opponents.

Centurions are built around being PD escort frigates, but there aren't nearly enough missiles and fighters around for that to be viable (and, even if there were, the AI is unlikely to let it navigate a chaotic battlefield full of threats while also providing effective PD to its charge). It's designed around a role that doesn't really exist.

Cerberus, Vanguard, and Lasher are without a real niche. All but Vanguard just feel completely outclassed across the board - there's no reason to field them. Vanguard is tough enough to be tricky to kill early on, but in later fights, it just ends up getting killed after a short while. A victim of the fact that "slow, but tough for a frigate" is a calculus that doesn't really work out once larger ships show up.
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Pizzarugi

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2024, 07:25:44 AM »

Ships I don't like:

Any slow ships - I don't like taking forever and a half to go from the starting point in a battlefield to the center where the fighting is taking place, only to then get singled out by enemy ships and killed while allies hang back throwing stones at safe distances. People say Paragon is one of the biggest, meanest powerhouse capitols in the game, but I can't get past how unfathomably sluggish it is. Meanwhile if you give me a Wolf, Medusa, or Aurora, then I can decimate the enemy fleet. It's too bad there's no strong, high mobility capitols unless I pick up Automated Ships and Neural Link so I can pilot a Radiant.
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Zumberge

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2024, 08:00:55 AM »

The Shrike is the only ship that I... maybe not "don't like," but definitely pity.  A heavy frigate that gaslit itself into thinking it was a destroyer, with a system that encourages it to charge into the fray and a hull that causes it to explode the second it hits the fray.  Someone asked for advice on how to outfit one and my response was, "get a Medusa."
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Megas

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2024, 08:03:30 AM »

I do not like ships that AI cannot pull its weight in a fight.

Fury - Despite 95 base top speed, it is not fast enough to retreat without zero-flux bonus (but AI will not drop shields, so it needs Safety Override).  If it cannot kill the target on its first attack run, its flux goes high and it starts backpedalling, and the enemy pursues.  If Fury does not have Safety Override, Fury is not getting away fast enough (enemy probably has mobility system, long range ballistics, or both) and keeps backpedaling while taking fire from the enemy in a vain attempt to escape.  It is hard to build a non-SO Fury that can battle a peer or even a somewhat inferior opponent (like Falcon) on its own and win, and such builds tend to involve missiles, and Fury is completely spent (out of missiles) after winning such a duel.

Hyperion - AI does not know to use the Teleport for escaping.  Without Safety Override, it can waste a minute backpedaling trying to escape from an enemy after flux gets high, and it refuses to teleport to escape now.

Grendel - AI does stupid things with it in a duel.  It can have an opponent on the ropes but turn chicken unexpectantly and not finish the job.  It only goes downhill as the enemy recovers then snipes Grendel to death.

The Shrike is the only ship that I... maybe not "don't like," but definitely pity.  A heavy frigate that gaslit itself into thinking it was a destroyer, with a system that encourages it to charge into the fray and a hull that causes it to explode the second it hits the fray.  Someone asked for advice on how to outfit one and my response was, "get a Medusa."
At least Shrike is cheap.  Fury feels Shrike's pain, but it is nowhere near as cheap.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2024, 08:15:11 AM by Megas »
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Killer of Fate

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2024, 09:06:36 AM »

Invictus I would probably halve its hull durability (40k -> 20k), increase its flux to pre-nerf stats and reduce DP to 50.

Venture, most likely strongest ship in the game considering the amount of missiles it has and the minuscule DP cost. The only thing that holds it back is the fact that it's boring and the fact that officers are limited.

Eagle, probably one of the most powerful ships in the game that similarly to Venture is held by the fact that it's boring. But additionally Graviton Beams have wacky AI issues, and it tends to miss a lot due to the soon to be fixed hardpoint bug.

Champion I hate it too, tbh...

Bungee_man

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2024, 10:39:34 AM »

It's too bad there's no strong, high mobility capitols unless I pick up Automated Ships and Neural Link so I can pilot a Radiant.

Odyssey fits your exact niche. Piloted well, a vanilla Odyssey can take on even the S-modded faction fleets from Nexerelin singlehandedly.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Ships I don't like
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2024, 10:41:51 AM »

Invictus - Invictus with Orion Device would be a 45 DP ship. It needs to have something very powerful to warrant its dreadnought name and 60 DP cost. It doesn't scream glass cannon to me at all. Also why would it stay away from combat with such armor and hull stats? That seems like a waste of a big capital.

I meant the LIDAR Array screams glass cannon. Why would it have the longest range of all weapons otherwise? It even has a 10-second cooldown, it's like Starsector equivalent of a sniper rifle. But then for some reason the sniper rifle is given to the bomb disposal guy.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2024, 10:51:26 AM by Lawrence Master-blaster »
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