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Author Topic: New weapon ideas  (Read 1454 times)

TK3600

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New weapon ideas
« on: October 03, 2024, 05:57:11 AM »

Twin Assault Gun: medium ballistic, 2x100 HE, 800 range, 180/180 dps/flux, medium accuracy, 7 8 OP.

Efficient HE ballistic that hits reliably on small and medium targets. Outmatched by heavier cruiser grade armor.

Metal storm: Large ballistic, 4x40 KE, 500 range, 1400 burst dps, 350 sustained. 0.5 dps/flux, Good accuracy, fast rotating PD. Mag size: 16, 20 OP.

A rapid fire PD that can double as anti shield weapon. It bosters incredible kinetic dps like needlers, but the mag size is too small to burst down ships. Against fighters it will shred entire squadrons instantly. Large slot HMG analog.

Altropos LR pod: Large missiles. 1500m range, otherwise near identical to regular atropos (1000dmg). 3 shots per volley, 10s reload, 15 ammo total. 16 OP.

General purpose brawling weapon for large ships. Mediocre burst potential, but reliable against ships of smaller class. The extended fuel tank make it slightly less maneuverable.

Zeus MRM: medium missile: 800 energy dmg, 400 EMP dmg(chance through shield), 2000 range, 2 per volley, 10 max. fast speed, poor tracking.

Fires disruptive plasma jets that disrupts enemy. Alternative to ubiquitous harpoon spam. AI fire it similar to finisher when enemy high in flux.


« Last Edit: October 04, 2024, 01:30:32 AM by TK3600 »
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FooF

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Re: New weapon ideas
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2024, 12:39:00 PM »

Twin Assault Gun is literally a better Heavy Mortar. It’d make more sense to give the Heavy Mortar 800 range than add something like this.

Metal Storm: 500 range is really low and your dps numbers don’t work out. 4x40 at 350 DPS sustained is one burst every 2 seconds. How is that useful for PD once it
goes through its ammo? With only 16 shot capacity, it has 640 damage before it runs out of ammo, so 1400 DPS isn’t real. If the numbers did work out…maybe? But it’s a Kinetic Devastator at that point with absurdly low range for a Large slot. It would probably fair about as well as the Paladin in that it’s not competitive for the slot.

Large Atropos: I’d say it would compete against the Hurricane the most and Atropos are far superior in guidance and technically it’s nearly the same damage. 16 OP is way too cheap. It’s side-grade to the Hurricane at worst.

I like the Zeus though. A fast, not-quite dumb fire Energy missile would be good.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2024, 04:48:56 PM by FooF »
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Princess of Evil

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Re: New weapon ideas
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2024, 12:44:11 PM »

Large Atropos would actually compete with Locusts. Atropos is more than nimble enough to hit frigates and destroyers, with a side benefit of also doing good damage to larger targets, at the cost of ammo and refire. Although it wouldn't be Atropos if it has a different projectile.
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Selfcontrol

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Re: New weapon ideas
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2024, 01:55:19 PM »

Quote
Twin Assault Gun: medium ballistic, 2x100 HE, 800 range, 180/180 dps/flux, medium accuracy, 7 OP.

That's OP.
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TK3600

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Re: New weapon ideas
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2024, 08:31:18 PM »

Quote
Twin Assault Gun: medium ballistic, 2x100 HE, 800 range, 180/180 dps/flux, medium accuracy, 7 OP.

That's OP.
It is only 180 dps, barely better than light assault gun. Make it 8 OP if need to.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: New weapon ideas
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2024, 09:36:04 PM »

A smaller Mjolnir with one barrel and half the fire rate. All other stats the same. Medium ballistic.
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Phenir

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Re: New weapon ideas
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2024, 09:21:41 AM »

Quote
Twin Assault Gun: medium ballistic, 2x100 HE, 800 range, 180/180 dps/flux, medium accuracy, 7 OP.

That's OP.
It is only 180 dps, barely better than light assault gun. Make it 8 OP if need to.
It's longer range, more accurate than heavy mortar while being a lot less efficient and less dps. I wouldn't call it OP but I wonder if it even has a place.
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TK3600

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Re: New weapon ideas
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2024, 11:58:28 AM »

Quote
Twin Assault Gun: medium ballistic, 2x100 HE, 800 range, 180/180 dps/flux, medium accuracy, 7 OP.

That's OP.
It is only 180 dps, barely better than light assault gun. Make it 8 OP if need to.
It's longer range, more accurate than heavy mortar while being a lot less efficient and less dps. I wouldn't call it OP but I wonder if it even has a place.
If for whatever reason I run HAC on an Eagle, it would be nice to match range.

If I want to run large ballistic computer, my mkX could be supported by pair of these.

You see, heavy mortar just cant hit medium target at range. It is not max range, it is accuracy and bullet speed. Its real range is more like 600m if you are looking to hit anything smaller than capital.

Then there is heavy mauler: laughable dps, but can burst down armor to let other dps work. 12OP cost. What if you dont need to snipe or crack big armor, you just want to chew fast and medium armored targets? This is it. The sane option between "trash dps, expensive" to "cant hit a barn under 500m range" that you are not hyper specialized for.

It is purposefully made not that strong so people still go for the specialist builds. Keeps game not frustrating without ruining fun options. So many people moan for better variety of medium HE thats not missile. There is only 2! 2 in medium energy and ballistic combined!
« Last Edit: October 04, 2024, 12:03:15 PM by TK3600 »
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TK3600

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Re: New weapon ideas
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2024, 12:55:48 PM »

Twin Assault Gun is literally a better Heavy Mortar. It’d make more sense to give the Heavy Mortar 800 range than add something like this.

Metal Storm: 500 range is really low and your dps numbers don’t work out. 4x40 at 350 DPS sustained is one burst every 2 seconds. How is that useful for PD once it
goes through its ammo? With only 16 shot capacity, it has 640 damage before it runs out of ammo, so 1400 DPS isn’t real. If the numbers did work out…maybe? But it’s a Kinetic Devastator at that point with absurdly low range for a Large slot. It would probably fair about as well as the Paladin in that it’s not competitive for the slot.

Large Atropos: I’d say it would compete against the Hurricane the most and Atropos are far superior in guidance and technically it’s nearly the same damage. 16 OP is way too cheap. It’s side-grade to the Hurricane at worst.

I like the Zeus though. A fast, not-quite dumb fire Energy missile would be good.
Metal storm is not weak at all. Its burst is not 640, it regen ammo while firing, so it will be more like 800. More than enough for instantly delete torpedo. If it is a burst of 2, it can catch 2 reapers before it lands. Good enough AA with a niche, but gains incredible anti shield function. With me so far?

You now must remember expanded mag will make it 24 mag(960 burst) now you factoring regen ammo, you will find burst more than adequete. But you will not stop here. We all know S-mod expanded mag is OP. It gives 50% regen on ammo. 525dps at 0.5 flux ratio, simply incredible! Still worried about burst on missiles? 1440 effective burst. Beating the dead horse here. 1440 burst you are bursting down a frigate not just missile anymore.

If you run smod expanded mag, you get an very adequete AA and a discount storm needler in one package. OK, it is 2/3 sustained dps of storm needler (350 vs 500), but you paid 2/3 the OP anyway. Rest of the perks come for free, like faster burst, AA function, insane 0.5 flux. You prob saved more than 2/3 OP once vent cost is counted. For low tech ship that tend carry large ballistic, the easy of use is huge vs full storm needler. But wait, the range! 500 vs 700. Yeah, otherwise it is OP. But with elite PD you can buff it to 700. I say for a large slot ballistic a skill investmebt is worth considering. Now it is almost a better storm needler with AA as bonus.

A lot of investment, but it pays off. I think it makes a lot of sense for battlecarriers. At stand off range it function as AA. It can shred any approaching ships in a brawl. You want elite PD anyway to buff fighters. Flux tend to be low on those ships, so this one makes sense to build around. HE options filled by fighters, KE filled by ship itself.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2024, 01:06:11 PM by TK3600 »
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Phenir

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Re: New weapon ideas
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2024, 02:11:13 PM »

It's longer range, more accurate than heavy mortar while being a lot less efficient and less dps. I wouldn't call it OP but I wonder if it even has a place.
If for whatever reason I run HAC on an Eagle, it would be nice to match range.

If I want to run large ballistic computer, my mkX could be supported by pair of these.

You see, heavy mortar just cant hit medium target at range. It is not max range, it is accuracy and bullet speed. Its real range is more like 600m if you are looking to hit anything smaller than capital.

Then there is heavy mauler: laughable dps, but can burst down armor to let other dps work. 12OP cost. What if you dont need to snipe or crack big armor, you just want to chew fast and medium armored targets? This is it. The sane option between "trash dps, expensive" to "cant hit a barn under 500m range" that you are not hyper specialized for.

It is purposefully made not that strong so people still go for the specialist builds. Keeps game not frustrating without ruining fun options. So many people moan for better variety of medium HE thats not missile. There is only 2! 2 in medium energy and ballistic combined!
4 actually. Mining blaster and assault chaingun also exist. And acg is good enough if you need accurate high dps HE, it's not like those frigates are going to outrange you. And honestly, phase lance and heavy blaster could be classified as anti armor as well.
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TK3600

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Re: New weapon ideas
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2024, 12:03:05 AM »

It's longer range, more accurate than heavy mortar while being a lot less efficient and less dps. I wouldn't call it OP but I wonder if it even has a place.
If for whatever reason I run HAC on an Eagle, it would be nice to match range.

If I want to run large ballistic computer, my mkX could be supported by pair of these.

You see, heavy mortar just cant hit medium target at range. It is not max range, it is accuracy and bullet speed. Its real range is more like 600m if you are looking to hit anything smaller than capital.

Then there is heavy mauler: laughable dps, but can burst down armor to let other dps work. 12OP cost. What if you dont need to snipe or crack big armor, you just want to chew fast and medium armored targets? This is it. The sane option between "trash dps, expensive" to "cant hit a barn under 500m range" that you are not hyper specialized for.

It is purposefully made not that strong so people still go for the specialist builds. Keeps game not frustrating without ruining fun options. So many people moan for better variety of medium HE thats not missile. There is only 2! 2 in medium energy and ballistic combined!
4 actually. Mining blaster and assault chaingun also exist. And acg is good enough if you need accurate high dps HE, it's not like those frigates are going to outrange you. And honestly, phase lance and heavy blaster could be classified as anti armor as well.
Mining blaster is a good point. Range too short, but great if you build around it. Its niche is counter super armored units though, not chewing up smaller ships.

Asaault Chaingun I dont think it is useful outside SO builds. Kinda like heavy mortar, ultra close range weapon.

Phase lance is energy weapon, and works well enough vs small ships. Instant hit, perfect accuracy. It is the ballistic that struggle a bit. Energy weapon can hard counter small ships with beams.

i just want a medium ballistic HE that does not force me to min max 1000 extreme range or ultra close. There are so many variety of kinetics sharing similar niche, but we are starved for just a normal HE weapon.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 12:04:38 AM by TK3600 »
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kaoseth

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Re: New weapon ideas
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2024, 11:57:25 AM »

Twin Assault Gun: medium ballistic, 2x100 HE, 800 range, 180/180 dps/flux, medium accuracy, 7 8 OP.

Efficient HE ballistic that hits reliably on small and medium targets. Outmatched by heavier cruiser grade armor.

Alex has said that he intentionally left an explosive damage gap with medium balistic to let missiles fill that role. 

Light Assault gun does 160 dps, and fills your needs.  Did you know you can put small balistic weapons into medium ballistic mounts?    It's 85% of what you want.

Quote
Metal storm: Large ballistic, 4x40 KE, 500 range, 1400 burst dps, 350 sustained. 0.5 dps/flux, Good accuracy, fast rotating PD. Mag size: 16, 20 OP.

A rapid fire PD that can double as anti shield weapon. It bosters incredible kinetic dps like needlers, but the mag size is too small to burst down ships. Against fighters it will shred entire squadrons instantly. Large slot HMG analog.

Against missiles, it's out matched by flak hitting multiple targets at the same time.  Against fighters, it's completely and totally outmatched by Devistators.  At at most during burst it'll kill 2 broadsoards in 1 second, where Devastators kills 10 in a single salvo. There's no contest. 

Storm Needler will attack fighters if there's no other targets, so it's basically exactly what you want, better suited.  The damage that PD does against missiles is tuned. 1400/350 is too much for that long of range.  Even the Paladin is 200 sustained.  You'd have to reduce it's damage if it was firing at missiles, and thus have a PD tag. 

Intersting sidebar - S-mod IPDAI affects small needlers.  It can fill that itch. 

Quote
Altropos LR pod: Large missiles. 1500m range, otherwise near identical to regular atropos (1000dmg). 3 shots per volley, 10s reload, 15 ammo total. 16 OP.

General purpose brawling weapon for large ships. Mediocre burst potential, but reliable against ships of smaller class. The extended fuel tank make it slightly less maneuverable.

A large missile mount firing atropos torpedos would need 28 ammo and fire 4 at once to match the Reaper ammo growth curve. The OP would need to go up to match, and well.  Ok perhaps 3m fired and 27 ammo to reduce the OP cost?  It'd go up quite a bit. 

Overall, I think this missile launcher is a good addition!  The short range high damage guided explosive for large missiles is lacking.  There's a uniqueness in skipping the medium size.  Also, it might be too much an ask to see small, medium, large, versions of harpoons, sabots, atropos, and breach. 


BTW, the "General Purpose Brawling" for larger ships is handled by unguided missiles.  Hammers and Reapers. And the "reliable against smaller class" is handled by a Locust.  Locusts also do well against larger ships too, as each volley does a combined 6000 fragment damage, and it has enough ammo reserves to last the entire battle, particularly with a missile officer. 

Quote
Zeus MRM: medium missile: 800 energy dmg, 400 EMP dmg(chance through shield), 2000 range, 2 per volley, 10 max. fast speed, poor tracking.

Fires disruptive plasma jets that disrupts enemy. Alternative to ubiquitous harpoon spam. AI fire it similar to finisher when enemy high in flux.

Energy missiles feel like an Omega weapon thing. 

There's an issue with the weapon as you described it.  It doesn't really have a role to play outside of being another MRM.  I can't imagine a situation I'd like to use other than as part of a Harpoon volley to shave off whatever shields the target restored before the harpoons get there. 

For other similar missiles,

Sabot is spike damage, and needs to operate at short range as the ship want's to be range to make use of the hit.  The Resenator MRM has a very solid solid suppression role.

With regards to Harpoon as a comparison,

Harpoon spam only happens when you load up on harpoons. So I wouldn't call that ubiquitous, just a function of the missiles you decide to bring and the length of time they travel on screen, leading them to be seen more.  If you want to see this hang out on screen effect in action, load up Pilums on all your medium and large missile slots across the board.  You'll think the pilums are as common as stars in the background.  Shame that pilums are not particularly effective, but it is comedic gold to see a ship with fast missile launchers use pilums.  Pegasus can lunch 96 pilums in the time it takes for the slower ships on both sides close range to firing distance. 
 
If you are playing a long range game, with Hypervelocity + Maulers and ITU, it makes sense that to use Harpoons as the missile to help finish things off.  Other missiles have to short of range.  And many players like to design for that range, as it keeps their ships safer.  I don't see using Zues in this situation. 
 
Nor do I see it used in a Lasers using AO + ITU, as squalls are better suited due to the larger ammo counts and difficulty shooting them down.

It's very easy to load up Enforcers and Eradicators with harpoons.  Perhaps too much so, as they tend to over-fire at stuff they'll never hit.  A single Hound will see them fire a large barrage at it, only for it to evade.  The Gryphon's harpoon + Squall case is a specific very effective strat that only gets stronger with more Gryphons. 
« Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 12:28:22 PM by kaoseth »
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TK3600

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Re: New weapon ideas
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2024, 02:20:25 PM »

I wasnt thinking an energy missile like Omega. Think of it as a giant mojnir torpedo. A presurized metal projectile that cause energy reaction. As for the niche, it is fast! Not exact reliable tracking vs fast ships, but it is like a very accurate cannon that self correct little bit. This helps bypass PD a bit

Damage: 800 Energy will crack armor like a HE missile. Damage not wasted vs shield like 90% other HE options. Hefty shield damage with threat of EMP arc. It is a missile countered by evasion, not PD or shield like most.

Lastly, it has range of a medium missile. Very few has nice range like harpoon. Salamander does, but it is a niche thing thats kinda weak.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 02:22:55 PM by TK3600 »
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TK3600

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Re: New weapon ideas
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2024, 02:26:50 PM »

Needler IAPDS do not work. It dump emtire mag on 1 tiny missile, eats flux like mad. This PD is 0.5 flux. And dont waste shot as badly. This honestly is more close to a HMG than anything. A charged HMG.
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Princess of Evil

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Re: New weapon ideas
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2024, 10:37:10 PM »

The whole idea of a large kinetic PD weapon is hilarious to me. Not only will Alex never give you a large weapon with the flux usage of a frugal medium, but large ballistic slots are much, much better off getting plugged with HE, due to how weapon balance in Starsector works. Even if you had too many larges (which means you're an Onslaught, one of two ships in the game with 5 whole large slots) you wouldn't want a dedicated PD-only weapon, when you could have a Devastator array that deletes not only missile swarms, but also fighters, and frigates dumb enough to get in its range.
(And Onsl doesn't want melee KE weapons, it's already stuck with two anti-shield energy guns.)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 10:39:28 PM by Princess of Evil »
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