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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); In-development patch notes for Starsector 0.98a (2/8/25)

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Author Topic: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework  (Read 168290 times)

MechaRauser

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Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #150 on: September 02, 2024, 04:11:16 PM »

Honestly, thank you so much for the portrait changing feature!
I do not even know what to say, just so very kind of you to consider this niche little need of however few people would even want this feature, so very over-the-top considerate, thank you!
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Lukas04

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Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #151 on: September 02, 2024, 04:33:28 PM »

Honestly, thank you so much for the portrait changing feature!
I do not even know what to say, just so very kind of you to consider this niche little need of however few people would even want this feature, so very over-the-top considerate, thank you!

To be fair, it was probably the most requested thing (and unlike balance related topics, its hard to disagree on that kind of request)
Glad your happy with it though!
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Killsode

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Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #152 on: September 04, 2024, 01:04:56 AM »

Got a bug report for automated ship recovery for both the Automation aptitude and Makeshift Drones skill: Random Assortment of Things Abyss drones are uncovered. I just tested both sources of automated ship recovery and neither work. I was rather surprised as both of these are your mods.
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Lukas04

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Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #153 on: September 04, 2024, 02:52:55 AM »

Got a bug report for automated ship recovery for both the Automation aptitude and Makeshift Drones skill: Random Assortment of Things Abyss drones are uncovered. I just tested both sources of automated ship recovery and neither work. I was rather surprised as both of these are your mods.

This is fixed in the latest version of RAT
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Killsode

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Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #154 on: September 04, 2024, 03:32:04 AM »

This is fixed in the latest version of RAT

Ah, beta patches arent covered by update checker. Guess that makes sense.
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Lukas04

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Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #155 on: September 04, 2024, 04:29:22 AM »

Its not in beta anymore
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luchillo17

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Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #156 on: September 04, 2024, 07:10:22 AM »

Love the concept and execution. Will this mod work with skill pack mods? There are faction mods that add faction skills (e.g. UAF), if so does the support have to be set up in their mod?
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Lukas04

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Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #157 on: September 04, 2024, 07:13:07 AM »

Love the concept and execution. Will this mod work with skill pack mods? There are faction mods that add faction skills (e.g. UAF), if so does the support have to be set up in their mod?

Check the compatibility section on the main page
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Killsode

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Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #158 on: September 04, 2024, 07:36:30 AM »

Its not in beta anymore

Oh, neat! I need to go update then. Update checker didnt ping an update available from 2.4.0beta7
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Octavus

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Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #159 on: September 04, 2024, 10:51:09 AM »

Hey Lukas loving the mod, wanted to throw an idea your way
"A hullmod which based on the highest-grade ship with this hullmod in the fleet, will provide additional EO skills. For example, cruiser grade can provide one additional skill while capital grade can provide two. Following that line of thought some ships can be specialized in command, which are much more expensive and rare, but also provide more skills or other fleetwide bonuses."
Credit to leste on fossic. His original idea was for the hullmod to provide EO officer slots but you made your position on that issue pretty clear so I made some changes. :P
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Lukas04

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Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #160 on: September 04, 2024, 10:56:18 AM »

Hey Lukas loving the mod, wanted to throw an idea your way
"A hullmod which based on the highest-grade ship with this hullmod in the fleet, will provide additional EO skills. For example, cruiser grade can provide one additional skill while capital grade can provide two. Following that line of thought some ships can be specialized in command, which are much more expensive and rare, but also provide more skills or other fleetwide bonuses."
Credit to leste on fossic. His original idea was for the hullmod to provide EO officer slots but you made your position on that issue pretty clear so I made some changes. :P

Thanks for the suggestion but, that sounds rather unintuitive and and messy, and in the end it wouldnt really add anything in terms of choices to the mod. It also doesnt really address the reasons as to why there arent more slots or skills per officer.
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vicegrip

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Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #161 on: September 04, 2024, 02:10:58 PM »

Awesome mod  :)
Would you consider giving each aptitude its own category so that modders who want to make their own aptitudes can more easily make them exclusive vs the existing ones?

Lukas04

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Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #162 on: September 04, 2024, 02:19:06 PM »

Awesome mod  :)
Would you consider giving each aptitude its own category so that modders who want to make their own aptitudes can more easily make them exclusive vs the existing ones?

Id rather keep the use of aptitude incompatibility low, and dont quite want to encourage adding to many of them through other mods either. The more free the system is, the more fun it is too.
So for now i will likely just keep it at Automated & Logistics, as those are aptitudes where i can generaly see it be needed.

Its not that much of an issue if aptitudes have some overlap, you just should not design aptitudes that have 1 to 1 overlap with an existing one, and that becomes a lot easier by making the aptitudes focused on multiple topics at once, for example for the Exotech tree i wanna do at some point it will handle things like phase, carriers and a few generic tech related things. So there will be some synergy with the Strikecraft Aptitude, but since its only a few carrier skills you wont get to overlap to many carrier skills.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2024, 02:21:25 PM by Lukas04 »
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vicegrip

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Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #163 on: September 04, 2024, 05:18:17 PM »


Id rather keep the use of aptitude incompatibility low, and dont quite want to encourage adding to many of them through other mods either. The more free the system is, the more fun it is too.
So for now i will likely just keep it at Automated & Logistics, as those are aptitudes where i can generaly see it be needed.

Its not that much of an issue if aptitudes have some overlap, you just should not design aptitudes that have 1 to 1 overlap with an existing one, and that becomes a lot easier by making the aptitudes focused on multiple topics at once, for example for the Exotech tree i wanna do at some point it will handle things like phase, carriers and a few generic tech related things. So there will be some synergy with the Strikecraft Aptitude, but since its only a few carrier skills you wont get to overlap to many carrier skills.

I understand the idea of keeping the system open for players, but I'd like to point out that the inability to prevent certain skill synergies makes designing and balancing aptitudes harder, which in turn could lead to less choice for players.

Just as an example, imagine if aptitude skill tiers and per-tier limits wasn't a thing, and players could take any number of skills together the moment they have the points. Would that make creating and balancing new aptitudes easier or harder? And if it did make creating new mod content harder, would that ultimately give players more or fewer choices? I think it's a lot easier to make new content that's conceptually novel and balanced compared to just one aptitude, rather than all nine at the same time. The system is fantastic and I want to make new content for it. Ultimately I'll work with the design constraints I have, but I believe more choice for the modder in which balance levers to use gives more opportunity to make good content, so I hope you'll give my suggestion some more thought.

Anyway, whether or not you make the change, I'm still enjoying the system a lot. Good job.

Lukas04

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Re: [0.97a] Second-in-Command | A full-scale skill system rework
« Reply #164 on: September 04, 2024, 11:50:12 PM »


Id rather keep the use of aptitude incompatibility low, and dont quite want to encourage adding to many of them through other mods either. The more free the system is, the more fun it is too.
So for now i will likely just keep it at Automated & Logistics, as those are aptitudes where i can generaly see it be needed.

Its not that much of an issue if aptitudes have some overlap, you just should not design aptitudes that have 1 to 1 overlap with an existing one, and that becomes a lot easier by making the aptitudes focused on multiple topics at once, for example for the Exotech tree i wanna do at some point it will handle things like phase, carriers and a few generic tech related things. So there will be some synergy with the Strikecraft Aptitude, but since its only a few carrier skills you wont get to overlap to many carrier skills.

I understand the idea of keeping the system open for players, but I'd like to point out that the inability to prevent certain skill synergies makes designing and balancing aptitudes harder, which in turn could lead to less choice for players.

Just as an example, imagine if aptitude skill tiers and per-tier limits wasn't a thing, and players could take any number of skills together the moment they have the points. Would that make creating and balancing new aptitudes easier or harder? And if it did make creating new mod content harder, would that ultimately give players more or fewer choices? I think it's a lot easier to make new content that's conceptually novel and balanced compared to just one aptitude, rather than all nine at the same time. The system is fantastic and I want to make new content for it. Ultimately I'll work with the design constraints I have, but I believe more choice for the modder in which balance levers to use gives more opportunity to make good content, so I hope you'll give my suggestion some more thought.

Anyway, whether or not you make the change, I'm still enjoying the system a lot. Good job.

I get your points, but i do just think the quality is better with incompatibility avoided where possible. I think the way the system works is one of the more meh parts of the mod, but just required for certain things. In the end, even overlapping aptitudes with similar skills means that you are giving up 2 out of your 3 slots, so you are still going to miss out on stuff. Thats why i think its just best to avoid making aptitudes that are hyperfocused (Like Strikecraft, Smallcraft, Automation) if they are already around in the main mod, and instead focus on more varied trees. Like if a mod wants to add a unique XO for their faction, it can try to have skills based on the multiple features that define the faction.

That said, if theres any aptitude you think you do really want to be able to make yours incompatible with, feel free to say that here. Though i dont think i would add a category to any of the more generic stuff i.e Management, Technical, Tactical, etc.
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