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[Daynen]

Just a tiny addendum in defense of missiles: tracking missiles can more often than not be fired into empty space with no target and will acquire a target automatically if/when one comes in range, pre-emptively disrupting the enemy's plans when they charge into your "untargeted" missiles.  So yeah, the missile mods having an S-mod penalty is...actually quite fair.

[Phenir]

Works really good for anti fighter missiles. Just target nothing for a second and shoot.

[Goumindong]

EMR build in can also be a benefit. Many missiles will refire very fast, and a reduction in refire time/increase in reload time can make you more effective because you will waste fewer missiles. This is particularly good for like, small harpoons and the medium harpoon pods. Which will often refire a volley into a ship that is dead but hasn't been hit yet.

The main problem with EMR is that it can give you so many missiles that you won't run out (particularly for large missiles racks)

[Vanshilar]

Just a tiny addendum in defense of missiles: tracking missiles can more often than not be fired into empty space with no target and will acquire a target automatically if/when one comes in range, pre-emptively disrupting the enemy's plans when they charge into your "untargeted" missiles.  So yeah, the missile mods having an S-mod penalty is...actually quite fair.

That's an interesting observation. I went into the sim, moved 5000 su away from a Practice Target (from the Target Practice mod), and shot Locusts into empty space (without targeting the Practice Target). The Locusts automatically turned and headed straight for the Practice Target. So did Harpoons at 5000 su away. So missiles can "lock on" to targets beyond their stated range, even if they have no chance of hitting it.

In fact, if you link the Harpoons to something long range, like say a Pilum, then it looks like the ship will fire the whole group (i.e. including the Harpoons) from up to 4000 su away, assuming there's another ship in front to spot the enemy ship for it (or assuming the ship has High Resolution Sensors to see at least 4000 su away). So this is a way to give the Harpoons ultra-long range (since their actual range is much farther than the stated range, presumably to account for maneuvering). A bit niche, but for example for my 3-minute double Ordos fleet, this would make the reinforcements better, since the bottleneck was getting them to fire their Harpoons as early as possible since there's no way they'll use up the full complement before the fight ended. Hmm.

[Daynen]

Yeah, pre-firing some missiles can give you a serious edge because your enemy is charging into an existing missile volley and your missiles are already partway done reloading by the time they engage.  Good way to buffer a double burst.  Also neuters fighters when you pre-fire a locust; even the biggest swarms are popcorn if they get hammered twice before reaching you.

[TaLaR]

I think that DEMs are a little lackluster right now. I also think that given how much the persean league spams them, if they were up to the power of squall/locust/harpoon etc that it might cause some problems.

DEMs are kind of anti-player weapon. Not OP/slot-efficient enough to use in your fleet, but are just hard enough to evade to make small ship losses in your fleet almost unavoidable when spammed by enemy.

[Killer of Fate]

I think that DEMs are a little lackluster right now. I also think that given how much the persean league spams them, if they were up to the power of squall/locust/harpoon etc that it might cause some problems.

DEMs are kind of anti-player weapon. Not OP/slot-efficient enough to use in your fleet, but are just hard enough to evade to make small ship losses in your fleet almost unavoidable when spammed by enemy.

they're designed to hard-counter frigates and squishy destroyers, and yet form the core damage of Persean League, making them extremely weak in fleet combat, but really good at sniping random fodder.

[vladokapuh]

they are also entirely useless vs majority of high tech

[Thaago]

I've been playing with DEMs lately, in particular using Gorgons on Enforcers (in a linked group of 4, not tied to weapons) in the early game, then more gorgons on Dominators (a mixed low tech + DEM playthrough) in the midgame. When fielded in decent quantities, I actually find the opposite of this:

they are also entirely useless vs majority of high tech

Versus armor based cruisers, which often have moderate PD, they are not nearly as effective as harpoons with how the AI uses them. They get through the high flux shields easily, but at the same time they are short enough range that range-boosted flak can shoot half of them down, and their anti-armor and anti-hull damage is much weaker than a harpoon. They hit, they do damage, but they just aren't as effective because the part they are good at (anti-shield) is not needed.

But versus high tech enemies they are doing better. Yes, said enemies have good shields, but Gorgons have much better (slightly better than 2x) anti-shield performance than harpoons, and the high tech ships often have less capable PD and less armor (though not none on the big ones). The AI only fires when the enemy ship is high on flux, so I've been finding that the Gorgons can punch through the remaining shields and then do damage in situations where harpoons wouldn't.

I will say that in all of this testing I'm supporting the Gorgons with long ranged kinetic damage. They're being used as supported finishers, not the sole weapon trying to take down shields.

One thing though: The small Gorgons are good in relation to small Harpoons: more ammo! But the medium Gorgons are really crap compared to medium Harpoons: they only fire 2 instead of 4 and have the same ammo, which for a finisher weapon is a crippling disadvantage.

[Grievous69]

One thing though: The small Gorgons are good in relation to small Harpoons: more ammo! But the medium Gorgons are really crap compared to medium Harpoons: they only fire 2 instead of 4 and have the same ammo, which for a finisher weapon is a crippling disadvantage.

I've been saying this since DEMs came out and finally someone else gave them a fair shot and concluded the same thing. It's easy to dismiss the whole group because one missile is ridiculously overpriced, but Gorgons in small missile mounts are in the top 3 choices for my AI ships.

[Thaago]

Yeah, it kind of hit me like an arrow to the knee. I was very happy with how my gorgon enforcers performed against pirates (I know, very low bar, but this is in +100% XP fights with a bunch of pirate cruisers and manticores, where I'm really outnumbered, and enforcers usually perform poorly in those kind of fights), but when I switched up to the medium gorgon I was shocked at how much they underperform in comparison to medium harpoons.

They aren't terrible, but with their long reload time and only burst size of 2 its a noticeable downgrade.

I'd give the medium mount Gorgons either 50% more ammo (or more! To counteract the 1/2 size burst and the lower effectiveness they have thanks to the long reload) or more boost their fire burst to 4. That makes them incredibly nasty vs shields, but given their poorer anti-armor performance I'm ok with that!

[Doctorhealsgood]

Gorgons went amazingly on my Gremlins on the Gremlin & Grendel only meme run i did a bit ago. Bless that random PL planet stocking a truckload of them during early game. Mediums should really get some love yeah.

[Alex]

(FWIW, I've got a note somewhere to increase medium Gorgon ammo for the next release! I think it gets to be a bit overwhelming if it launches 4 missiles at a time.)

[Doctorhealsgood]

(FWIW, I've got a note somewhere to increase medium Gorgon ammo for the next release! I think it gets to be a bit overwhelming if it launches 4 missiles at a time.)

how about three in an alternating sequence? As in first burst shoots a third missile on the right pod and the second burst the left

[kaoseth]

(FWIW, I've got a note somewhere to increase medium Gorgon ammo for the next release! I think it gets to be a bit overwhelming if it launches 4 missiles at a time.)

how about three in an alternating sequence? As in first burst shoots a third missile on the right pod and the second burst the left

 
I am for the burst of 3.  Medium Sabots have a burst of 2,  Medium Harpoon has burst of 4.  Gorgons being energy, should be a burst of 3.  I think some art change to make it look like 3 next to each other would be easier instead of a more difficult animation of an alternating 2 one one side, 1 on the other.