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Author Topic: Problems with the Campaign.  (Read 8160 times)

Reshy

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Problems with the Campaign.
« on: May 31, 2012, 01:40:11 AM »

First off I seem to have a lot of problems, especially with that whole slowing down when you win mechanic.  It's possible to be stuck in back to back fights because by the time your 'invulnerability' from a fight wears off you can't escape them due to the slow down effect in the game.  It's not helped by the fact that ships that are retreating only do so for a few seconds before looping back around.  So I end up losing my entire fleet not due to lack of ability on my part but that they slowly kill of my crew with burst weapons than retreating and repeating over and over.  This isn't fun at all and only has served to turn me off of playing the campaign further.


Sorry Alex, but I must say that the game has progressively seemed more like a MMO in the sense that I stop being engaged in the game's world and more focused on mini-maxing or scumming to the best of my ability due to your difficulty curve of the game.  It needs to be nailed down quite a bit in order to be a reasonable task for me to do.




This feels to be increasingly my experience with starfarer, if I am not totally working to the best of my ability then I can't get anywhere.  While I have no problem of a challenge, it's persistence without any lulls between them makes me feel more like a powergamer than one that's actually trying to enjoy the game for it's own sake.  I just can't sit down and enjoy it, it's always frustrating or rage producing.  While that's fine on occasion it's every few minutes in starfarer's current state and it only serves to make me regret my purchase.  I will say this now, realism should not superseded the fun, and currently I believe that the attempts at realism only seem to take away from the experience instead of add to it.


Ok so say you really want it to be as realistic as possible even if it sacrifices the fun, ok then.  Let me ask you, why is it that a ship who's lost too much crew to remain active somehow is still active in the middle of battle and suddenly stops functioning the second it ends?  If your goal is realism then obviously that needs to be added in too.  But I digress I doubt that's your intended goal so I'm assuming this was done more or less to try to make it realistic without being frustrating.  That's fine, just that the current implementation is simply too much for the kind of game you have going here.  Crew shouldn't just die en mass as a percentage of damage to the ship as a form of attrition damage.  Attrition in games just isn't fun and I've yet to see a game that has made something like that fun.  I will also mention the fact that many of these mechanics that cripple the player are either ignored by the AI or not a problem as they just simply are dumped with enough supplies that it's never a problem except for the rare occasion.



I also want to know why your assigned a random ship instead of allowed to pick your starting ship out of a small list when you start.  I don't like having to make several files until I get a ship that isn't horrible.  But also if the ship costs less than the most expensive one you get bonus credits equal to the amount less of your ship versus the most expensive.  But still, I am of the opinion that your starting ship should be larger or should at least have a small fleet so the game doesn't feel like your dragging your feet.  Speaking of dragging your feet, the MMO mindset I complained about comes in a lot more noticeably when I'm trying to get ships because I know that it's only ever a random chance to get a ship, nothing but pure luck influences it so it just feels like a GRIND FEEEEEST.  It's like each ship is a rare item with only a 1% drop rate from a strong miniboss monster.  You just kill them over and over again and get no progress until they give you the lucky drop you need to go and repeat the same thing on the slightly stronger miniboss.  It just feels plain grindy, as if it's afraid that the game won't last long enough if it doesn't rely on making progress as slow as possible.  I know this is a beta but COME ON, I shouldn't need to spend hours to experience the end game content, if anything that's rather counterproductive since that means most people won't actually get to the places in the game that actually requires testing.  Losing progress also sucks a lot, that's why I stopped playing MMOs because if by some quirk you actually die you lose hours of progress, I have no idea why this is thought to be a good point in Starfarer.  You say you want progression to be slow, fine.  But at least make it so that even having a single bad battle doesn't put you hours behind.  All that does is frustrate me and make me reload which I assume that quick save and quick load aren't expected to be part of the general gaming experience.  What was the phrase that was used... "It's one of those games where you might as well have quick save and quick load bound to the left and right mouse key".  I wholly believe that the game is far far to reliant on random chance mechanics rather than actual player input.



The music and changes to the sound were nice though.
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Wyvern

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Re: Problems with the Campaign.
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2012, 08:21:12 AM »

Just a couple of points:

I'll start with: it's an alpha.  Alex has outright said that, at the moment, save-scumming is not something to feel guilty about; the game isn't yet fine-tuned enough.

For comparison, though, I've never had issues with losing by attrition; while the slow-on-win mechanic has occasionally pushed me into fights I didn't want to be in, it's always been a different fleet that was too close when I first engaged.  Plus you can take a fair amount of damage without losing crew at all - and most ships have plenty of room for spare crew, too.

I have seen the odd case where a fleet that retreated from me in combat thought it was strong enough to take me on for round two once it got out of combat - but I've never seen a case where such a fleet didn't get crushed on the second go-around; I'm curious - what ships are you fighting that are even capable of retreating over and over?  And what ships are you using?

For that matter, what ships are you trying to get that you have to fight over and over for?  Most things are available for sale sooner or later; and - it being still an alpha - I personally feel no guilt at all about modding in more ships available for purchase if I really want to play around with, say, an Omen, or an Astral, or the like.

As far as starting fleet: all the current ships are workable; it's not like the previous build, where if it rolled brawler, you just sold it and bought something else.  You do have to be careful early on, though - both in picking what you fight, and in picking where you fight it, so that victory doesn't trap you into a battle you can't win.  However, if this really bothers you, go looking at mods - there are some out there that grant better starting fleets.
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Hopelessnoob

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Re: Problems with the Campaign.
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2012, 11:33:33 AM »

I don't think Corvus is going to be indication of the final product. Theres so many things not implemented yet right now theres nothing to do in campaign but grind from battle to battle.

The reason your ship doesn't shut down when you lose crew can be explained very simply, it wouldn't be fun if your ship just shut down for a reason you can't measure.

I've seen plenty of AI fleets without enough crew to keep all ships functioning and very rarely have i ever had myself run out of crew to pilot my ships.

Save often and save regularly, game doesn't force you to save to exit you can always reload before the battle that was terrible for you.
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BillyRueben

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Re: Problems with the Campaign.
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2012, 12:07:25 PM »

Personally I enjoy the beginning of a game rather than the end, when I only have one or two ships. I feel the difficulty is right where it should be, and I also don't believe in reloading my game when the *** hits the fan. I just take the Hound and start all over again.

This feels to be increasingly my experience with starfarer, if I am not totally working to the best of my ability then I can't get anywhere.

I feel that is exactly how any game should be. Any game I've ever played, when it stopped challenging me to be better, it stopped being interesting for me. I'm sure there are mods out there that could make this game much easier, and I wouldn't be surprised if the full release had some difficulty slider to make the game a little more forgiving.
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KriiEiter

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Re: Problems with the Campaign.
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2012, 02:09:14 PM »

Well there's already one piece of difficulty you can increase or decrease in settings.

Your ship takes half damage/You ship takes full damage.

And it definitely is harder at the beginning compared to the end.  Basically once I got my first capital ship, it was game over for every other fleet I fought.
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Kommodore Krieg

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Re: Problems with the Campaign.
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2012, 08:32:27 PM »

You may have jumped the gun a little bit, and I think that's putting it lightly.  There is no campaign to comment on yet.  What you are playing is a persistent wrapper for combat in a game in it's alpha state.  The fact that the game world engaged you at all when there is actually no game world to be engaged in yet should be a testament to how good this game is.

And if you are having problems with difficulty then turn either a) get better, or b) turn player damage taken to 50%.  There is no shame in either option.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 08:35:25 PM by Commissar Krieg »
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Reshy

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Re: Problems with the Campaign.
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2012, 06:01:45 PM »

I have seen the odd case where a fleet that retreated from me in combat thought it was strong enough to take me on for round two once it got out of combat - but I've never seen a case where such a fleet didn't get crushed on the second go-around; I'm curious - what ships are you fighting that are even capable of retreating over and over?  And what ships are you using?

For that matter, what ships are you trying to get that you have to fight over and over for?  Most things are available for sale sooner or later; and - it being still an alpha - I personally feel no guilt at all about modding in more ships available for purchase if I really want to play around with, say, an Omen, or an Astral, or the like.

As far as starting fleet: all the current ships are workable; it's not like the previous build, where if it rolled brawler, you just sold it and bought something else.  You do have to be careful early on, though - both in picking what you fight, and in picking where you fight it, so that victory doesn't trap you into a battle you can't win.  However, if this really bothers you, go looking at mods - there are some out there that grant better starting fleets.


It was a wolf, usually I would end up fighting 1-2 lashers and a couple of bombers or fighters.  The lashers would usually fire all their missiles and then retreat, and the fighters would usually retreat after only one went down.  Because of this I ended up having 3 fleets at once harassing me and due to a quirk of the mechanics, once the battle against one fleet ended the one from the previous fight would forget they were retreating and attack me again.  I couldn't actually get away due to them always being faster than me.  Also, for whatever reason whenever a battle ended the enemy fleet would almost always have restored the health of all their ships by the time they would forget they're retreating.

The thing is that the game shouldn't require mods in order to make it fun to play, if that occurs than it's failed at it's task of providing entertainment and instead relies solely on it's community to make it fun.



I don't think Corvus is going to be indication of the final product. Theres so many things not implemented yet right now theres nothing to do in campaign but grind from battle to battle.

The reason your ship doesn't shut down when you lose crew can be explained very simply, it wouldn't be fun if your ship just shut down for a reason you can't measure.

I've seen plenty of AI fleets without enough crew to keep all ships functioning and very rarely have i ever had myself run out of crew to pilot my ships.

Save often and save regularly, game doesn't force you to save to exit you can always reload before the battle that was terrible for you.

Well if the experience feels grindy than that should be addressed.  So far it's only felt more and more grindy with every release.  Removing the surrender mechanic, adding in the random chance mechanic 'accidents', etc.

Then why is it suddenly more fun the second the battle ends?  I also save often and regularly due to the save scummy nature of the game.



Personally I enjoy the beginning of a game rather than the end, when I only have one or two ships. I feel the difficulty is right where it should be, and I also don't believe in reloading my game when the *** hits the fan. I just take the Hound and start all over again.

I feel that is exactly how any game should be. Any game I've ever played, when it stopped challenging me to be better, it stopped being interesting for me. I'm sure there are mods out there that could make this game much easier, and I wouldn't be surprised if the full release had some difficulty slider to make the game a little more forgiving.

Fun for you =/= Fun for me.

Well, let me first ask since you like difficulty.  Do you play Super Meat Boy, I Wanna Be The Guy, Dark/Demons Souls, Kingsfield the Ancient City, Touhou, or any of the other incredibly difficult games?  Because that logic that the game must always be challenging is only fun to those who enjoy power gaming and speed runs and all those sorts of things.  However those people are in the tiny, tiny minority of people.  Most people want a happy medium between challenge and flow.  If a game's so difficult that you start the same segment over and over or otherwise have to play it dozens of times to get anywhere it breaks pace and becomes grindy.  Now I don't think that the game super incredibly hard, just that the difficulty doesn't blend well with the progression curve.  A hard battle is more likely than not to be detrimental to you rather than being beneficial.  That means that it's all about picking on fleets that are smaller than you which doesn't make the game difficult, just more grindy.

For example's sake, it's like there's a miniboss monster you could fight that gives tons of experience.  However if you get hit by it's best spell you end up losing a level.  So you don't bother, you just spend all your time grinding on the weak-but-reliable boars in the area.  Progression is screwed up in that respect.


Well there's already one piece of difficulty you can increase or decrease in settings.

Your ship takes half damage/You ship takes full damage.

And it definitely is harder at the beginning compared to the end.  Basically once I got my first capital ship, it was game over for every other fleet I fought.

I realize that, but all the hours of time you have to put in to get to that point is quite simply so grindy that I don't have the patience for it.



You may have jumped the gun a little bit, and I think that's putting it lightly.  There is no campaign to comment on yet.  What you are playing is a persistent wrapper for combat in a game in it's alpha state.  The fact that the game world engaged you at all when there is actually no game world to be engaged in yet should be a testament to how good this game is.

And if you are having problems with difficulty then turn either a) get better, or b) turn player damage taken to 50%.  There is no shame in either option.


It's not that I don't like the game, I do quite a lot in fact.  I just feel that it's not fixing the main problems and that's the ability to hold someone's interest rather than simply generate a lot of initial interest that wanes rapidly.

This isn't about getting better, there's a certain point in a game where you cease being able to get better and then it simply comes down to luck, grind or exploitation.  A boss that could only be killed with a horrible accuracy spell that only had a .01% chance of success and the boss always kills you in one hit doesn't make the boss difficult.
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minno

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Re: Problems with the Campaign.
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2012, 06:05:51 PM »

The thing is that the game shouldn't require mods in order to make it fun to play, if that occurs than it's failed at it's task of providing entertainment and instead relies solely on it's community to make it fun.

Can you at least wait until the game is done before complaining about that?  Everything except for the combat is just a placeholder until the actual campaign is complete.
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Hopelessnoob

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Re: Problems with the Campaign.
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2012, 09:39:46 PM »

You could always play the battles, they're a ton of fun and have prebuilt fleets. it also removes some of the grindy mechanics of accidents and having supplies.
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KriiEiter

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Re: Problems with the Campaign.
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2012, 10:45:40 PM »

Honestly my first capital ship only took 1-2 hours to get to.  I tend to run smaller fleets and save up everything so that I can get my big ships first.  I don't build enormous fleets out of a bunch of frigates, which I feel a lot of people tend to do.

I also use the simulation feature immensely for testing out what builds will allow my ships to be controlled by AI and still dish out/absorb damage best.  If I had to guess, I'd say that 3/4 to 4/5 of my gameplay time is spent running simulations to get those "perfect" builds on my ships.
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Wyvern

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Re: Problems with the Campaign.
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2012, 12:11:07 AM »

The wolf is, at the moment, actually one of the harder ships to use well - and it doesn't help that the default configuration has some flaws.  I'd strongly suggest making a few changes:
Drop expanded missile racks in favor of 5x vent; I'll frequently even shift some or all of the capacitors to vents.
Swap the missiles to group 1 (make sure to set group 1 to alternating) and the grav beam to group 2 (linked autofire), so you can aim the grav beam using strafe mode, and fire missiles as needed.

What you can't do is engage more than about two enemy frigates at once - and even in the case of two, you have to be careful to maneuver (and, if necessary, fire missiles you know won't hit just to make an enemy back off for a bit) so that you only actually engage one at a time.

I've never seen the described "lashers fire all missiles and then retreat" though, so I don't have any advice there.  Must be *something* you're doing different... a video might help track down what's going on.  Or it might not; I dunno.

Talon fighters will retreat; let them; they're not worth chasing down.  Piranhas you should be able to reliably kill off, though - I find it can help to fire harpoons at them, though you have to be careful; if the piranhas are close enough to start firing swarmers, those will give them a surprisingly effective defense against your harpoons; you generally want to fire a few harpoons just before the piranhas get on-screen.
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Reshy

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Re: Problems with the Campaign.
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2012, 02:33:35 AM »

Honestly my first capital ship only took 1-2 hours to get to.  I tend to run smaller fleets and save up everything so that I can get my big ships first.  I don't build enormous fleets out of a bunch of frigates, which I feel a lot of people tend to do.

I also use the simulation feature immensely for testing out what builds will allow my ships to be controlled by AI and still dish out/absorb damage best.  If I had to guess, I'd say that 3/4 to 4/5 of my gameplay time is spent running simulations to get those "perfect" builds on my ships.

But we already have Gratuitous Space Battles, which is already a bit better at the whole strategic part.


The wolf is, at the moment, actually one of the harder ships to use well - and it doesn't help that the default configuration has some flaws.  I'd strongly suggest making a few changes:
Drop expanded missile racks in favor of 5x vent; I'll frequently even shift some or all of the capacitors to vents.
Swap the missiles to group 1 (make sure to set group 1 to alternating) and the grav beam to group 2 (linked autofire), so you can aim the grav beam using strafe mode, and fire missiles as needed.

What you can't do is engage more than about two enemy frigates at once - and even in the case of two, you have to be careful to maneuver (and, if necessary, fire missiles you know won't hit just to make an enemy back off for a bit) so that you only actually engage one at a time.

I've never seen the described "lashers fire all missiles and then retreat" though, so I don't have any advice there.  Must be *something* you're doing different... a video might help track down what's going on.  Or it might not; I dunno.

Talon fighters will retreat; let them; they're not worth chasing down.  Piranhas you should be able to reliably kill off, though - I find it can help to fire harpoons at them, though you have to be careful; if the piranhas are close enough to start firing swarmers, those will give them a surprisingly effective defense against your harpoons; you generally want to fire a few harpoons just before the piranhas get on-screen.


I immediately modified the wolf, don't worry about that.

Now the lashers don't do it all at once, they usually fire them rapidly however and retreat when their salvos are depleted.  It's just that if I take a single missile or two I'm pretty much screwed as while the ship will survive I'll lose enough crew that the magical strings holding the ship in your control fail.  So when it's a constant back-to-back battle your prone to make mistakes eventually.
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Gothars

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Re: Problems with the Campaign.
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2012, 03:42:04 AM »


Fun for you =/= Fun for me.


Your kind of fun seems to be complaining that unfinished stuff is not yet perfect...
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hadesian

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Re: Problems with the Campaign.
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2012, 04:46:10 AM »

Quote
But we already have Gratuitous Space Battles, which is already a bit better at the whole strategic part.

And we're in 0.52.1a Alpha Preview. Don't talk at all at what's better when Starfarer is still very, very new and Campaign has been in for... three updates now?

When we're finished with combat, it'll be fairly insane.
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SeaBee

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Re: Problems with the Campaign.
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2012, 05:15:07 AM »

We still have an RPG system, a dynamic world system, a property system (among other things) that aren't finished yet ... things that will dramatically change the atmosphere and give players more things to do. I, for one, look forward to getting involved in factional politics and causing trouble while gathering the best officers I can find (things that aren't in the game yet). Other people look forward to becoming owners of outposts and other centers of industry.

I'm not arguing against the points you've made, but we really only have the combat portion to look at. Think of this as a tech demo, not a finished product -- and a tech demo that only showcases 25% of the game. Character creation will almost certainly be changed around a bit with the addition of the RPG stuff. Progression of your character, and advancing in the universe, don't really happen right now, giving you only one way to advance (getting new ships and equipment). That stuff is coming.

Please be patient. Perhaps when the game reaches 1.0.0, you might find it interesting to revisit this post and see if your objections still apply. I have a feeling you'll like it a great deal more then.

On a side note, I enjoyed that comic.  :)
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