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[Thaago]

Recently I was experimenting with 2x Heph Dominators, with 2x railguns 2x arbalests (though with the recent testing I would probably switch the railguns to light needlers) backed up by more kinetic focused escort enforcers. It worked ok! Probably not optimal as sometimes the enforcers had been pushed back and I missed the kinetic, but really not bad.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

And you'd be wrong. A lot of setting up ballistic ships is picking the right weapons for each job - and why would you mount large kinetics and smaller HE weapons when you could, instead, mount small kinetics and a large HE weapon?

Because this isn't Cosmoteer and ships come in predetermined configurations with limited amount of mounts of different sizes.

[Goumindong]

And you'd be wrong. A lot of setting up ballistic ships is picking the right weapons for each job - and why would you mount large kinetics and smaller HE weapons when you could, instead, mount small kinetics and a large HE weapon?

Because this isn't Cosmoteer and ships come in predetermined configurations with limited amount of mounts of different sizes.

Which tend to point towards large HE and smaller kinetic…

Vs 50 armor hull Mark IX + 2 light assault guns = 527 DPS. (936 Vs shields) for 828 flux. 3 light autocannons(not even railguns or needlers or dlac!)+ HAG = 497 DPS (840 Vs shields) for 680 flux. Lac chosen for lower OP cost to make the fittings about even.

If you’re over fluxed, and you are/should be then the supreme efficiency advantage here should be winning this fight

[Princess_of_Evil]

Tbh part of it is mark9 being somewhat undertuned. It's already hard to accept a large kinetic in most cases, and the rest of the cases just prefer a needler (especially now that it has plasma cannon DPS). Honestly its best part is going through residual armor well with its 100 effective hit strength.

[Draba]

Vs 50 armor hull Mark IX + 2 light assault guns = 527 DPS. (936 Vs shields) for 828 flux. 3 light autocannons(not even railguns or needlers or dlac!)+ HAG = 497 DPS (840 Vs shields) for 680 flux. Lac chosen for lower OP cost to make the fittings about even.

If you’re over fluxed, and you are/should be then the supreme efficiency advantage here should be winning this fight

I'd say dissipation is usually the limit on lots of the high OP low tech ships that can mount both S and L, so could just add some rails instead of LAC.
Comparison is pretty moot as Heph has 480 HE DPS vs 320 on LAGs with triple hit strength, it was part of your point but it's worth emphasizing.
The entire "L ballistic HE = bad" thing is a strange hill to die on: there are no other good HE options beyond mauler, and S/M ballistic kinetics being extremely strong has to be one of the least controversial opinions about the recent versions.

[prav]

MK9 is lovely if you pair it with, say, a HIL or Tachlance. This might not be the ideal combo for a Conquest, of course.

[Princess_of_Evil]

HepHag is balanced weird.
If it did double the current damage (at half firerate), it would just be the best HE ballistic. It would also encroach on Mjolnir's niche.
If it had 1.5-2x DPS, and something like 600 range, it would be an awesome brawler gun, which is a niche that exists. On like two ships, but it exists.
As is, it just kind of does neither. It's a medium range anti-hull gun, which is an awesome niche, if you're called Thumper. HAG's damage is basically untouched by residual damage, which is nice and means HAG does hull DPS of about two Thumpers, but that still makes it basically a large Thumper.

[Draba]

As is, it just kind of does neither. It's a medium range anti-hull gun, which is an awesome niche, if you're called Thumper. HAG's damage is basically untouched by residual damage, which is nice and means HAG does hull DPS of about two Thumpers, but that still makes it basically a large Thumper.

Heph has 960 base armor DPS for 440 flux with 240 hit strength, 900 range.
2 thumpers have 666 burst armor DPS for 666 flux with 25 hit strength, 700 range.
There is very little overlap between the 2, Heph batters armor down and chunks up even medium/strong hulls.
Even with the 0.25 buff, Thumper under AI control is more often than not just flux wasted on shields/armor that better guns could've used (for player it can be good ofc).

If it did double the current damage (at half firerate), it would just be the best HE ballistic. It would also encroach on Mjolnir's niche.

Mjolnir's niche is being able to convert excess flux into versatile high projectile speed/high hit strength damage without needing many mounts and kinetic support.
Double hit strength on Heph ofc would make it comparatively better, but it's already the best HE ballistic(+usually better than Mjolnir with lots of mounts) and that would make it overpowered.

Maulers are nice and have better penetration at 400 vs 240 and that juicy 1000 range, but it does take 4 of them (in 4 medium mounts) to match the raw DPS of a Heph, and 48 OP vs 20. So I do think Heph is much better, if only for cost.

Heph is generally better ofc, just don't think it's much better taking range/hit strength/projectile speed into account.
Burst on mauler can be a downside but it also has a habit of catching weaker ships and messing them up, generally nice for clearing them out fast.

[Princess_of_Evil]

Heph has 960 base armor DPS for 440 flux with 240 hit strength, 900 range.
2 thumpers have 666 burst armor DPS for 666 flux with 25 hit strength, 700 range.

Anti-hull.

Mjolnir's niche is being able to convert excess flux into versatile high projectile speed/high hit strength damage without needing many mounts and kinetic support.
Double hit strength on Heph ofc would make it comparatively better, but it's already the best HE ballistic(+usually better than Mjolnir with lots of mounts) and that would make it overpowered.

I'm extremely hesitant to call any HE larges "the best". Hellbore is annoying to aim and has DPS issues, Deva is zero range and HAG does what's best described as "tickling" against capital-grade armor.
Mjolnir's niche, in this case, is not being bad against any target, if you ignore flux.

[BigBrainEnergy]

HAG does what's best described as "tickling" against capital-grade armor.

Starsector players when a weapon doesn't strip armor in 1 or 2 shots.

Seriously, it strips onslaught armor in less time than it burns through the very same onslaught's hull and somehow that's "tickling." By that logic it tickles hull too, but you would still consider it a good anti-hull weapon.

[Selfcontrol]

Am I missing something there ?

How can the HAG not be an anti-armor weapon ? I find it pretty darn effective against armor because of its high RoF and accuracy meaning lots of shots are hitting the same cell. Yeah, it's not a Hellbore but it's still effective.

[robepriority]

Am I missing something there ?

How can the HAG not be an anti-armor weapon ? I find it pretty darn effective against armor because of its high RoF and accuracy mean a lot of shots are hitting the same cell. Yeah, it's not a Hellbore but it's still effective.

Yeah hellbore is the most specialized for breaking armor due to high single shot damage. Since the HAG has rapid fire, lower damage per shot armor would technically fare better against it


That being said the only thing that has high enough armor to endure HAG fire for any amount of time would have to be hardspecced into armor and even then, it's not going to endure for long.

[Goumindong]

Vs 50 armor hull Mark IX + 2 light assault guns = 527 DPS. (936 Vs shields) for 828 flux. 3 light autocannons(not even railguns or needlers or dlac!)+ HAG = 497 DPS (840 Vs shields) for 680 flux. Lac chosen for lower OP cost to make the fittings about even.

If you’re over fluxed, and you are/should be then the supreme efficiency advantage here should be winning this fight

I'd say dissipation is usually the limit on lots of the high OP low tech ships that can mount both S and L, so could just add some rails instead of LAC.
Comparison is pretty moot as Heph has 480 HE DPS vs 320 on LAGs with triple hit strength, it was part of your point but it's worth emphasizing.
The entire "L ballistic HE = bad" thing is a strange hill to die on: there are no other good HE options beyond mauler, and S/M ballistic kinetics being extremely strong has to be one of the least controversial opinions about the recent versions.

1 LAG = 160 DPS at 1 to 1
3 LAG = 540 DPS at 1 to 1.

=540 DPS for 15 OP

The setups were 780 DPS raw from 1 HAG and 3 LAC for 32 OP vs 888 DPS raw from 1 mark IX and 3 LAG for 31 OP. Edit: I see how I had two errors. 1 that should be 3 LAG and also it does 966 not 936 DPS Vs shields)

The fits we’re incredibly close on OP and we note that the total hull and shield DPS Vs 1000 base armor was higher for the mark IX it’s just that it cost a lot more flux to do it. (Primarily due to the slightly better efficiency of the HAG/LAC but this is because I choose a lower hit strength kinetic weapon (480 @ 240 + 300 @ 25 Vs 348 @ 100 Vs 540 @ 80))

Even if the HAG and LAC were 1 to 1 efficiency it would be 780 Vs 828 flux making final efficiency values exceedingly close together. If you’re running higher hit strength small kinetics you will slay comparatively with the HAG.

2 thumpers have 666 burst armor DPS for 666 flux with 25 hit strength, 700 range

Note that they also do 666 shield DPS for 666 flux and so are a decent anti-shield burst weapon. Whereas the HAG is doing 240 for 440

Tbh part of it is mark9 being somewhat undertuned.

The mark9 is exceptional. It’s 1 to 1 kinetic at 100 hit strength. With similar DPS/OP as other efficient options! It’s exceptional! If you could trade smaller mounts for large mounts on an OP basis you would 100% prefer to run mark IXs on everything and mix your mark IXs with HAG.

Like. If I could trade the 3 small small for a large mark IX + HAG = 629 hull DPS, 936 shield DPS for 788 flux! It would just absolutely slaughter the other two options. Similar shield DPS and the 3 LAG but 20% more armor DPS. For less flux!

The problem with the mark IX is solely that it’s in a large slot and large HE+smaller kinetic > large Kinetic + smaller HE because of hit strength supremacy.

The Mark IX doesn’t even had bad hit strength. It’s one of the higher armor/hull DPS kinetic weapons. Due to its good hit strength and overall high DPS. (The only better kinetic hit strength is the HVD at 139 and the Gauss cannon at 350. But a Gauss costs 9 more OP and has almost inefficient damage Vs shields due to its high costs and a HVD has 138 DPS for 13 OP…

Am I missing something there ?

How can the HAG not be an anti-armor weapon ? I find it pretty darn effective against armor because of its high RoF and accuracy mean a lot of shots are hitting the same cell. Yeah, it's not a Hellbore but it's still effective.

You are not missing anything. The HAG is decidedly in the second tier of armor killers right below “things that blow up armor in zero seconds”. It doesn’t kill as fast as a reaper… or a volley of 3 harpoons… but it’s almost as fast as a plasma cannon which deals 750 DPS at 500 hit strength…

[Draba]

HAG does what's best described as "tickling" against capital-grade armor.

Am I missing something there ?

How can the HAG not be an anti-armor weapon ? I find it pretty darn effective against armor because of its high RoF and accuracy mean a lot of shots are hitting the same cell. Yeah, it's not a Hellbore but it's still effective.

Your aren't missing anything, that was just wrong.
The only comparable non-missile weapon against armor is HIL, 960 DPS at 240 hit strength for 440 flux is a lot.
Heph also gets elite ballistics for both damage and hit strength that puts it even further ahead of projectile energies, but HIL is still the best ofc.

Heph has 960 base armor DPS for 440 flux with 240 hit strength, 900 range.
2 thumpers have 666 burst armor DPS for 666 flux with 25 hit strength, 700 range.

Anti-hull.

My point was Heph is good anti-hull damage, while also being very good against any armor.
Not much reason to compare it to thumpers, even if you ignore the 200 extra range and that thumpers waste their burst on shields/armor and usually have little left for hull.

1 LAG = 160 DPS at 1 to 1
3 LAG = 540 DPS at 1 to 1.

=540 DPS for 15 OP

Nvm, you wrote 2 LAGs and I didn't check the actual numbers there.
Mark IX + LAGs are 828 raw DPS for 828 flux and 33 OP (3 LAGs are 480 damage).
Heph+2 railguns: 814 DPS, 740 flux and 34 OP. ~same DPS vs shields, better against hull, much better against armor and you have 1 free mount+flux left over.
In practice that's probably just 3 railguns, rarely worth it to cheap out on ballistics.

2 thumpers have 666 burst armor DPS for 666 flux with 25 hit strength, 700 range

Note that they also do 666 shield DPS for 666 flux and so are a decent anti-shield burst weapon. Whereas the HAG is doing 240 for 440

Problem is something like arbalests give you the same sustained shield DPS as thumper's burst, for a bit more than 1/3 the flux (and thumper WILL be wasted on shields/armor).
Tried thumper again on lots of ships in 0.97, IMO it's still a genuinely bad weapon under AI control.

[Princess_of_Evil]

HepHag has 960 DPS against armor. That's the main part that keeps it usable - it's basically a 900 range Assault Chaingun. 96-144 minimal DPS is decent. It's even somewhat competitive with other anti-armor options, especially against cruiser armor and lower where it starts notably climbing out of minimal armor damage.

EDIT: I've ran the actual math, the full version. HB kills armor something like 20-30% faster (very dependent on thresholds), but if you take full cycle (including HB's three second reload after the armor is gone), all four large ballistic anti-armor guns (HB, HAG, Deva and Mjol) actually kill armor in a very similar time. That's with Mjolnir not being high-explosive and Devastator being prox fuse.