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[Killer of Fate]

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I don't think balancing the Conquest solely around the concept that somewhere someone out there is recording YouTube videos with 3 s-mods on each ship beating the crap out of boring end-game enemies is a good idea.

Because the point isn't that these kind of ships are like... Impossible to use. But it's just like... Conquest is meant to be a flagship of one of the biggest nations in the Persean Sector that exists to stand against the Onslaught. Not literally, but at least figuratively. At the moment, you can deter an NPC Conquest with a *** Dominator. That's how pathetic it is. Sure, you won't be able to kill it. But that's because Conquest is only good at a few things... Running away, spamming missiles, and looking pretentious AF.

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Like, look at this... You have 2 ridiculously over-nerfed capital ships, against Onslaught. Which has never been nerfed. Well, I'm reading that it was somewhat nerfed in 0.95, but that change seems to be more helpful than negative.

It even has a variant that straight up upgrades it into being stupidly broken, because "Domain machines, son!!!". Conquest is like Cruiser armour Dean Dingus who can't aim, cause its AI breaks every 2 nanoseconds. With a shield that overfluxes from annihilators and point defence grid positioned in such a way, that it always break its nose. Pegasus is like a missile boat. That's it. 50 DP for a missile boat... Cool, I guess... At least it doesn't have 1.0 shields to bring it down further.

I know that this could all just sound like a rant of some guy who can't be bothered to learn the game, and wants the game to change for them instead. But... Whatever... That may be what that is. But look, at least make Conquest and Pegasus good in Persean League's hands. When you see Onslaughts from the Hegemony rushing towards you. Or when you see Radiants. Or even the Executor, you go "oh my god... This is gonna be kinda frustrating, cause they are going to clear out all my annoying garbage". And then you go up against a Conquest, and it dies to annoying garbage. Which, fair... Pegasus then will spam enough Gorgons to turn the space into a freaking dubstep music festival, but then who the *** is going to clear out the larger capital ships? The Sunders and Gryphons??? Or Champions? Each of them with miniscule range, bad shields and relatively blah mobility?

And the *** Onslaughts, Jesus Christ.They're literally indestructible with this s-mod logic. The fact that you can make Conquests somewhat viable, you alone, and then everyone else is struggling. But the Onslaught is just universally good should explain to you what kind of balance situation we are in, at least based on community's viewing. I mean, even in your "Conquest is good, guys" video, you're still using an Onslaught as your main tanking capital ship, cause it's just that stupidly broken.

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And yeah, I know that everything becomes viable with s-mods and good officers, even the freaking Grendel which is really dope to have with a level 7 officer and s-mods, cause it becomes indestructible. But some things are more equal than others. And I can assure you that a min-maxed XIV Onslaught can probably clear 2 min-maxed Conquests at the same time. Probably...

I dunno, feel free to prove me wrong, I guess... Cause I could obviously be wrong.

ps. Also, did you measure the viability of the Conquest based on its ability to clear out Ordos as a DPS metric? As in what gives you the fastest resolution of combat??? That just sounds like you broke the game in multiple ways and then found like a strategy that sole winning grace is the fact that it kills enemies the fastest. But why would that matter if under all normal scenarios it's about killing an enemy at all? That's like saying Tempest is stronger than a Monitor, cause Tempest will kill Shepherds faster. I mean, you win either way... Maybe bring it down a notch? Like, I dunno... Non s-mod runs against singular Ordos? Or at least minor s-mod runs? Cause remember, Starsector isn't meant to be an esport, it's a semi-immersive like open-world space game. If there is like one hyper optimised strat to make a ship broken, then cool.

But can you say that the standard issue Conquest in 9/10 scenarios is going to be a useful addition to your fleet when compared to an Onslaught? Or an Executor even? I dunno, probably...

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[SCC]

Vanshilar, is the Conquest loadout from that video the one you use currently, or did you update it?

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

Your point is that...you don't understand combat strategies well enough and that therefore other people's sense of balance should be based on that?

To quote myself, referring to your strategy: "FYI, I have never seen anyone else's fleet do it. Even when Draba posts his own minmaxed comps which take 5 Ordo at a time this doesn't happen." I don't know how did you manage to misread that as "I don't know what you're talking about" - twice - but since apparently you did, let me clearly say it again:

Yes, achieving a local numerical superiority by using burst weapons in the initial stages of the fight is optimal and most effective, but very few fleets could do it in 0.96 and even less can in 0.97(against double+ Ordo)

Therefore, by extension, trying to balance ships around something that can only happen in extremely narrow set of circumstances is not a good idea. Because these changes will simply not apply to most fleet compositions in the game which cannot achieve local superiority and just slug it until one side runs out of ships.

You seem to be operating under an assumption that since you figured out the best possible fleet composition/build in the game(which I believe to be true) everyone should logically follow suit and use it - or at least something similar - but that's just not how it works. Putting aside that most players are, well, bad at the game and never get into the nitty gritty minutae of mechanics and stats and will never be even remotely as good as you, even the players who ARE good at the game would rather figure out their own thing rather than copy someone else's solution.

[Goumindong]

[To quote myself, referring to your strategy: "FYI, I have never seen anyone else's fleet do it. Even when Draba posts his own minmaxed comps which take 5 Ordo at a time this doesn't happen”

Well now you have seen it so… maybe you can calm down about how the strategy and fit is so unknown and impossible

Yes, achieving a local numerical superiority by using burst weapons in the initial stages of the fight is optimal and most effective, but very few fleets could do it in 0.96 and even less can in 0.97(against double+ Ordo)

Therefore, by extension, trying to balance ships around something that can only happen in extremely narrow set of circumstances is not a good idea

Well if a ship is good at achieving that effect, which is so strong it should not be “balanced around” maybe that ship isn’t a particular balance problem?

You seem to be operating under an assumption that since you figured out the best possible fleet composition/build in the game(which I believe to be true) everyone should logically follow suit and use it

No. He seems to be operating under the assumption that since he can effectively utilize the conquest to easily and efficiently beat up to 5 ORDO it’s probably not so bad as claimed.

[Sinigr]

Onslaught is already a mediocre ship, but that Killer of Fate just needs to nerf all. Just funny, nothing more.

[Goumindong]

You seem to be operating under an assumption that since you figured out the best possible fleet composition/build in the game(which I believe to be true) everyone should logically follow suit and use it

Going back to this because this is kinda how things worked. Back in the (.91?) day the Onslaught was terrrible. The worst capital. There were multiple threads about how bad it was. It was seen as explicitly inferior to the conquest. Which was the pre-eminent capital.

But then someone realized that you could stack automated repair unit and armored weapon mounts in order to not make your guns turn off when you took armor damage. And then it was discovered that the AI could reasonably use broadside fits and that converging the two side turrets was more efficient than trying to fight primarily with the TPC. And then the onslaught was suddenly cracked. Smashing through fleets at a time alone without stopping. No patch changes at all.

Since then the ship has been buffed. And it’s now really good. But it’s not really that different a ship than it was in .91. It’s a bit better but fundamentally we still stack ARU and ARM on it to make sure it’s guns don’t stop shooting when it takes armor damage and then stick it’s armor into an enemies face until their guns turn off.

And I suspect that the conquest will be bad, just the worst, terrible unusable. Until people realize that it’s extremely high flux dissipation and very accurate and high damage weapon set* mean it can utilize some of the best weapons in the game in order to crush enemies.

*Mjolnir do 533 DPS at 400 hit strength with EMP while killing enemy projectiles! A front onslaught with smod extended mags will do 1283 sustained DPS with a Mjolnir and both TPC but be using 1127 of its 1100 flux… the conquest will be doing 1066 and have 466 flux to spare. (And all the damage will be perfect accuracy no recoil from a turret at 400 hit strength!)

[TaLaR]

Conquest's main issue is being broadside. AI doesn't "crabwalk" nearly enough to use broadside efficiently. There is more than enough side acceleration to do so during Maneuvering jets activation (yes, AI needs to manage timing too, rather than just activate on cooldown as it usually does).
As result, an AI Conquest moves comparably to much slower ships.

[Killer of Fate]

Onslaught is already a mediocre ship, but that Killer of Fate just needs to nerf all. Just funny, nothing more.

well, now I can just tell that you're afraid that Onslaught and its XIV variant might actually get nerfed

[Princess_of_Evil]

I love how people consider anchor capitals (ons, leg, para) overpowered and battlecruisers underpowered (the only unanimously OP battlecruiser is Radiant). Almost like that's how you should be using the slow, meaty ship class with low weapon counts per DP.

[Grievous69]

Radiant is a battleship, unless you're thinking of something else.

[Princess_of_Evil]

Radiant has defensive stats of a battleship, but pilots like a battlecruiser. Well, like a battlecruiser with 5 larges and high-tech-level flux. And with a ship system that lets it move backwards fast.

[Killer of Fate]

I love how people consider anchor capitals (ons, leg, para) overpowered and battlecruisers underpowered (the only unanimously OP battlecruiser is Radiant). Almost like that's how you should be using the slow, meaty ship class with low weapon counts per DP.

I would never say Legion or Paragon are overpowered. And Legion doesn't even really feel like an anchor Capital. It's cool and all, but compared to the Onslaught, it's far more starved for stats and reliant on fighters which are usually hard-countered by a vast array of weapons and ships. Found even throughout Remnants which are usually one of the more vulnerable to this kind of stuff. It can greatly increase its firepower with 4 wings of Warthogs, but that is far more situational than just... 2500 armour XIV Onslaught has.

It's really funny to me when I read the guide for making custom ship in modding and there was someone there who was explaining on how to make a balanced ship, and then said that you should never have a ship that has like 3k armour, cause it's stupid and non-fun to play against. But when the player does it, then I guess it's fine. I would definitely like to snippet at those 0.6 efficiency pulsers. But I feel like it would take a lot of work to redesign the Onslaught so that it wouldn't turn into garbage by accident. And I would also probably remove bonus OP from the XIV variant. And check if armour stats aren't too hyperbolic compared to its shield potential.

If it comes to the Conquest being underpowered, course it is. Everyone probably knows it. People have to jump through hoopla-hoops to make it do anything for that 40 dp cost, sure, it's not as bad as the Astral, because in the end you get at least 2 Mjollnirs and a bunch of missiles. But it definitely feels like it should be slightly stronger for what it costs and what it does. Its mobility isn't even that significant. If you account for the Onslaught's forward mobility, then it is technically faster than the Conquest.

Radiant has defensive stats of a battleship, but pilots like a battlecruiser. Well, like a battlecruiser with 5 larges and high-tech-level flux. And with a ship system that lets it move backwards fast.

That's cause it's broken. Whereas every other ship of that mobility in the game would be like having 1.0 shields or very bad durability to make up for it. Radiant is just "whatever, bro". But it costs 60 DP, so I guess it's fine... OR IS IT!?

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[Princess_of_Evil]

I would never say Legion or Paragon are overpowered. And Legion doesn't even really feel like an anchor Capital. It's cool and all, but compared to the Onslaught, it's far more starved for stats and reliant on fighters which are usually hard-countered by a vast array of weapons and ships.

Also starved for hardpoints. Onslaught has, effectively, 5 large weapons. And all the nerfs to large missiles last two patches really hurt Leggy. That being said, it still works as an anchor (especially for smaller fleets) if you build for it.

Found even throughout Remnants which are usually one of the more vulnerable to this kind of stuff. It can greatly increase its firepower with 4 wings of Warthogs, but that is far more situational than just... 2500 armour XIV Onslaught has.

It's really funny to me when I read the guide for making custom ship in modding and there was someone there who was explaining on how to make a balanced ship, and then said that you should never have a ship that has like 3k armour, cause it's stupid and non-fun to play against. But when the player does it, then I guess it's fine.

3k base. Hell, 2k base is too much. There are far too many armor multipliers, and armor just gets better and better the more you have of it.

If it comes to the Conquest being underpowered, course it is. Everyone probably knows it. People have to jump through hoopla-hoops to make it do anything for that 40 dp cost, sure, it's not as bad as the Astral, because in the end you get at least 2 Mjollnirs and a bunch of missiles. But it definitely feels like it should be slightly stronger for what it costs and what it does. Its mobility isn't even that significant. If you account for the Onslaught's forward mobility, then it is technically faster than the Conquest.

Conquest, being midline, is stuck with the worst mobility system in the game (although not by much). It would've loved Burn Drive, or any other "go forward fast" system - it's a broadsider, so what's forward for it is "disappearing into the rear" for op4. And honestly, any other battlecruiser would kill for manjets. Except for Odyssey, but being the only broadside battlecruiser with a "gtfo" system, it's already kind of the strongest one (in that it's the one you see the least in balance discussions).

That's cause it's broken. Whereas every other ship of that mobility in the game would be like having 1.0 shields or very bad durability to make up for it. Radiant is just "whatever, bro". But it costs 60 DP, so I guess it's fine... OR IS IT!?

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I will never stop saying that Radiant is too powerful and is causing genuine balance problems just by virtue of existing (and being accessible to player).

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[Sinigr]

Onslaught is already a mediocre ship, but that Killer of Fate just needs to nerf all. Just funny, nothing more.

well, now I can just tell that you're afraid that Onslaught and its XIV variant might actually get nerfed

Not this way, Fate of Nerf. Onslaught is a mediocre ship, it was upgraded a little after 0.95, same as some weapons for that ship and hullmods, so now it is interesting to play, otherwise I kind of use paragons. You're just talking nonsense, you're making some kind of your own mod even though you don't play the game yourself. You all should play properly to really understand properly problems of the sector. The only thing you really understand is that the Conquest is weak and the AI is not very good.

Relax, just chill, ma boy.

[Killer of Fate]

I wouldn't nerf the Onslaught against your will, it's just that I wanted to do some more research before working on my mod. If you feel like Onslaught is balanced at the moment, then I guess it kinda is. It's complicated. There are ships that are too weak, and then there are ships that are strong. Onslaught I would say is the interesting benchmark other capitals should aspire too. But at the same time I will need to measure its performance using my mathematical model for my mod to check whether there isn't some sort of an over-expression. But at the same time, it's not like I have some sort of say in those things.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if Onslaught was nerfed eventually, or at least if there were more weapons or reworks added into the game that would make its life more hell. If it comes to Conquest being underpowered. Eh, probably. I know this kinda contradicts me saying "oh, it definitely is", but whatever... The general balancing decisions I aspire to make are not about necessarily making things stronger or weaker, but to make them more usable by NPCs, so that they don't behave like clowns on the battlefield, ruining my immersion. Conquest subtly fails, because of its lacking shield efficiency and maybe weapon design. But it could just be a variant issue, though I doubt it.