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[steve1592]

Recent update Save compatible?

[Caymon Joestar]

Recent update Save compatible?

Yes

[Kyuhau]

Really happy to see that there's still development going for this. I'm looking forward to seeing more ships! This faction lacked a bit of ship diversity, so seeing more makes me smile.

[Lee175]

First off, thank you for picking up this mod, it has to be my favorite modded faction, you're awesome

But I noticed that the built in Dampened Mounts doesn't seem reduce the OP cost of weapons if you S mod it, for example, on the Pandemonium or Riptide. The normal one, that you can add as a hull mod, does seems to work as intended though.

Edit: I'm on 2.9.1

[Keybindet]

exit refit skip a bit of time go back to refit see if cost went down

[Lee175]

exit refit skip a bit of time go back to refit see if cost went down

How odd, that worked once, then I couldn't repeat it. It does seem to work if I s-mod it, save, then reload the save. Seems weird.

[balordezul]

V2.9.1 is out

A new small weapon, the Glowfang equation Rifle
Buffs to the ashfall and adjustments to the arcs for the riptide, ashfall and polarV
Maelstorm dp now 40
Small buffs for some ships
Storm dp down to 23 from 26
Riptide DP increased to 24 from 22
Ashfall dp decreased to 25 from 28
Ashfall now has more Hull and Armor
and others i cant remember atm

still thinking on what to do for Adv avionics and smod dampened mounts

Nice I will try it out in the morning and thanks for the hard work.

I'm at about midgame now and the tax from the S-mod from Dampened is really starting to be felt.  The 2/3/5/7 feels to bit to taxing and is starting to add up fast.  You might get a hull mod on two if you are if you are lucky.  On a frigate but you are going up by 50% to 20% of the deployment value.  When equipping the Pandemonium pre S-mod it feels very tight and like you don't have enough ordnance points on the base design.  When the Pandemonium is S-modded Dampened it did not like a huge win fall but more like you had enough OP to equip the ship and take two hull mods.  I feel the Pandemonium is overvalued at the base form and 75 ordinance points or silly 82 when S-modded.

The player skill Support Doctrine that reduces deployment cost does not seem to take in that tax and reduces the cost and then adds the value of 2/3/5/7 on top. For example I have two Dazes one 18 and the other S-modded at 23 taking on the full 5 point upcharge after the player skill is applied.

I somewhat see Dampened in a similar way as Junker from HMI but with much worse negatives and the player skill does not synergize with it. Try bring the negatives a bit as your ships are not that much better is most cases and in some it felt like it did not have enough ordnance points to start with. Maybe start by scaling down the negatives a bit?  0/1/2/3 or 1/1/2/4 or 0/1/2/4 or something

PS a shout out to Zone51's DA Weapon pack for the neat little addition of the Medium Mostro Twin Cannon.

[Phenir]

When equipping the Pandemonium pre S-mod it feels very tight and like you don't have enough ordnance points on the base design.  When the Pandemonium is S-modded Dampened it did not like a huge win fall but more like you had enough OP to equip the ship and take two hull mods.  I feel the Pandemonium is overvalued at the base form and 75 ordinance points or silly 82 when S-modded.

Panda is under oped because it's a battlecarrier and because it has more slots than are meant to be filled. For example, you don't need to fill all 10 of those middle smalls. That's like 40-50 OP right there you probably aren't getting much value from. Also it has wanzer gantries so it can kind of have up to 6 bays if you use single fighter wanzers.
With 6 mediums, 2 larges, and 4 smalls all converging forward (and also all outranging literally anything else, thanks +200 range) alongside 6 bays (avalanches or ravens are both good options) and the micromissile arrays, panda has significantly more firepower than any vanilla capital except maybe a ziggurat abusing phase cooldown which itself is 75 dp so.... and it has very strong flux stats, more base dissipation than paragon and same capacity. Panda gets even stronger if you properly abuse its ship system which acts like a mini time skip, which means it dumps flux and reloads weapons quickly during it.
To summarize, I think Panda's 75 dp cost is deserved. As for the smod negative, remember it is a built in hullmod for capitals, so smodding it does not count against your total smod limit, so you are getting around 50 OP (last build I used had 2 larges, 9 mediums, 6 smalls so I got 60 op from it) in exchange for 7 dp. Maelstrom would get like 24- 30 op I think, I forget how many mounts it has exactly, which is pretty low for 7 dp. Might be a bit harsh for the smaller ships though. A percentage increase might be better, like 10% dp increase, rounded up. So most frigates will see 1 dp increase, destroys would be 1-2, cruisers would be 2-3, and the maelstrom would be 4 while the panda would be 7-8 depending on if it counts base dp or modified dp.

[Mikomikomiko]

Thank you for picking this up. Agree with balordezul's take. I believe it's just unintuitive to think that not all slots need to be filled so newer players tend to feel something is wrong when a weapon slot is empty.

[balordezul]

Adding in a few bugs in 2.9.1.

• Dampened S-modded on prebuild in is not giving the increase to deployment.
• All four of the new ships are not effected by the pilot skill Support Doctrine.
• The built in micro missiles systems on the ships and the not the small micro missile launcher only does one reload at a time.  It only does the reload when the full bank is empty vs cycling the reloads so you are seeing a large drop in missiles. Also with 2.9.1 Ashes of the Dominion skill Unstoppable Force is no longer interacting correctly after the update.

Just played for a little bit so far but I did notice the Ashfall is wildly mobile after the ability is used.  I looked at the file and it might be because it has the frigate version of that ability.  It currently is using diableavionics_evasion and it might be better if it had diableavionics_heavyflicker could remove the extra mobility boost.  It seems like the mass might be reduced after the use of diableavionics_evasion or it is just part of that skill.


Edit: The built in S-modded version of Dampened Mounts do not seem to work at all right now as it does not adjust Op or adjust deployment costs.  I did check with TMI and it still shows the range change.

[Tryhardosaurus]

Amazing! and new ships too!

[Phenir]

Adding in a few bugs in 2.9.1.

• Dampened S-modded on prebuild in is not giving the increase to deployment.
• All four of the new ships are not effected by the pilot skill Support Doctrine.
• The built in micro missiles systems on the ships and the not the small micro missile launcher only does one reload at a time.  It only does the reload when the full bank is empty vs cycling the reloads so you are seeing a large drop in missiles. Also with 2.9.1 Ashes of the Dominion skill Unstoppable Force is no longer interacting correctly after the update.

Just played for a little bit so far but I did notice the Ashfall is wildly mobile after the ability is used.  I looked at the file and it might be because it has the frigate version of that ability.  It currently is using diableavionics_evasion and it might be better if it had diableavionics_heavyflicker could remove the extra mobility boost.  It seems like the mass might be reduced after the use of diableavionics_evasion or it is just part of that skill.


Edit: The built in S-modded version of Dampened Mounts do not seem to work at all right now as it does not adjust Op or adjust deployment costs.  I did check with TMI and it still shows the range change.

micro missile reload isn't a bug and also isn't working the way you state. You can see in the tooltip of the missile that it reloads one volley at a time, not the full ammo, kind of similar to the autopulse laser which reloads one shot at a time. You can't see the ammo reload progress unless you have fully depleted the ammo but it is happening in the background. Easily testable with simulation with one of the missions. Fire maelstrom's array once then wait 20 seconds, you suddenly have full ammo again.
Smod dampened mounts are a bit weird and doesn't apply its dp and op changes without spending some time on the campaign map but it is working as far as I can tell (ibis costing 2 op instead of 4, recson v costing 8 instead of 12).
Support doctrine is working for me with the new ships. Ashfall goes from 25 to 20, riptide from 24 to 19, etc. Should note that built in dampened perfectly counteracts both cruisers dp reduction from support doctrine so in this case you would see no change in dp from either source.
No idea about the aotd interaction since I don't use that mod.

[balordezul]

When equipping the Pandemonium pre S-mod it feels very tight and like you don't have enough ordnance points on the base design.  When the Pandemonium is S-modded Dampened it did not like a huge win fall but more like you had enough OP to equip the ship and take two hull mods.  I feel the Pandemonium is overvalued at the base form and 75 ordinance points or silly 82 when S-modded.

Panda is under oped because it's a battlecarrier and because it has more slots than are meant to be filled. For example, you don't need to fill all 10 of those middle smalls. That's like 40-50 OP right there you probably aren't getting much value from. Also it has wanzer gantries so it can kind of have up to 6 bays if you use single fighter wanzers.
With 6 mediums, 2 larges, and 4 smalls all converging forward (and also all outranging literally anything else, thanks +200 range) alongside 6 bays (avalanches or ravens are both good options) and the micromissile arrays, panda has significantly more firepower than any vanilla capital except maybe a ziggurat abusing phase cooldown which itself is 75 dp so.... and it has very strong flux stats, more base dissipation than paragon and same capacity. Panda gets even stronger if you properly abuse its ship system which acts like a mini time skip, which means it dumps flux and reloads weapons quickly during it.
To summarize, I think Panda's 75 dp cost is deserved. As for the smod negative, remember it is a built in hullmod for capitals, so smodding it does not count against your total smod limit, so you are getting around 50 OP (last build I used had 2 larges, 9 mediums, 6 smalls so I got 60 op from it) in exchange for 7 dp. Maelstrom would get like 24- 30 op I think, I forget how many mounts it has exactly, which is pretty low for 7 dp. Might be a bit harsh for the smaller ships though. A percentage increase might be better, like 10% dp increase, rounded up. So most frigates will see 1 dp increase, destroys would be 1-2, cruisers would be 2-3, and the maelstrom would be 4 while the panda would be 7-8 depending on if it counts base dp or modified dp.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the topic and I do love your idea of trying out the Dampened Hull mod as a %.  I'm always up to try something and see how it works out.

My thoughts and opinions don't line up with yours but that is fine and it is better to have multiple points of view. Let me expand a bit on my thoughts and explain what I'm seeing.  For starters as players we can cheese the game systems and some ships have more tricks to play than others.  There are wild gamers out there that made Modded super bosses look like jokes so I'm going to take the wide range of player skill out of my thoughts for this. Yes, on paper the Pandemonium (I can't call her a panda as Santanico Pandemonium comes to mind) looks great but that is not as true as it might seem.

I have never had a time when I came across a Pandemonium or a Maelstrom in game where I was concerned outside of not being geared for mid or late game.  On the other hand a Paragon at 60 deployment points out ranges the Pandemonium with the stock built in Advanced Targeting Core. It does not have the same firepower but does out range it and tanks better than a Pandemonium.  The Pandemonium is classed as Dreadnought with the Maelstrom being the battlecruiser but we now have a dreadnought in game that I do worry when I see it.  The Invictus also at 60 deployment points may just out damage a Pandemonium but what is more important is a Invictus used by the AI is much deadlier to your fleet than a Pandemonium along with being tough as nails low-tech to tank a lot of damage.

With DA being a Midline series and personally the weakest out of low-tech, midline and high-tech they have limited shield arcs and middling armor and exposed flanks.  Both the Pandemonium a the Maelstrom are easy to flank even by capitals but not you Invictus as you have eaten to many snacks. I was also wrong the Pandemonium stock is only 70 deployment points I must have been looking when my character was assigned to it. Even so, the 8 combat focused mounting slots are good and the other mounts are mostly relegated to IBIS or Raptors.  The Dampened Mounts range bonus is needed for those large mounts as you might be 200 away from the front of the ship.  Don't get me wrong I do not hate or dislike the ship.  But the ordnance points are light on it and DA at some point had a big push to be "Vanilla" and likely got pushed to bit under Vanilla.  Do I think it is still overcoated at 70? Yes, 100% in the current state.  Should it be 60, debatable likely closer to 65 via the large carrier aspect.  But there is room for tinkering and examination.

I'm always willing to try stuff and see what works and what does not work. 

[balordezul]

micro missile reload isn't a bug and also isn't working the way you state. You can see in the tooltip of the missile that it reloads one volley at a time, not the full ammo, kind of similar to the autopulse laser which reloads one shot at a time. You can't see the ammo reload progress unless you have fully depleted the ammo but it is happening in the background. Easily testable with simulation with one of the missions. Fire maelstrom's array once then wait 20 seconds, you suddenly have full ammo again.
Smod dampened mounts are a bit weird and doesn't apply its dp and op changes without spending some time on the campaign map but it is working as far as I can tell (ibis costing 2 op instead of 4, recson v costing 8 instead of 12).
Support doctrine is working for me with the new ships. Ashfall goes from 25 to 20, riptide from 24 to 19, etc. Should note that built in dampened perfectly counteracts both cruisers dp reduction from support doctrine so in this case you would see no change in dp from either source.
No idea about the aotd interaction since I don't use that mod.

Thanks Phenir!  I found the issue it was on the Daze is where I noticed it at 5am this morning.  If I had been more awake I would have checked the other ships closer.  The Daze oddly has a burst of 16 and a reload of 8 is why it felt wrong. That is why I thought it was a bug, the reload is not matching the burst.  I had noticed the issue in a battle and then tested it in a sim but I was testing my two different Dazes with different secondary missile loadouts.

After you said Dampened was working I kept getting the same bug.  So I tried the standard IT solution of turning off and back on. I used the strip button and then auto equip and that worked.  Looks like there was an issue if you had a ship with it preinstalled in 2.9.0 but not S-modded.  Easy fix but also easily overlooked.

Support doctrine works but it runs the base value then adds the Dampened tax.  For example Ashfall goes from 24 to 20 and then adds the +5 from S-modded Dampened vs 24 + 5 and reducing by 20% giving you around 23 deployment point ship.

[Phenir]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the topic and I do love your idea of trying out the Dampened Hull mod as a %.  I'm always up to try something and see how it works out.

My thoughts and opinions don't line up with yours but that is fine and it is better to have multiple points of view. Let me expand a bit on my thoughts and explain what I'm seeing.  For starters as players we can cheese the game systems and some ships have more tricks to play than others.  There are wild gamers out there that made Modded super bosses look like jokes so I'm going to take the wide range of player skill out of my thoughts for this. Yes, on paper the Pandemonium (I can't call her a panda as Santanico Pandemonium comes to mind) looks great but that is not as true as it might seem.

I have never had a time when I came across a Pandemonium or a Maelstrom in game where I was concerned outside of not being geared for mid or late game.  On the other hand a Paragon at 60 deployment points out ranges the Pandemonium with the stock built in Advanced Targeting Core. It does not have the same firepower but does out range it and tanks better than a Pandemonium.  The Pandemonium is classed as Dreadnought with the Maelstrom being the battlecruiser but we now have a dreadnought in game that I do worry when I see it.  The Invictus also at 60 deployment points may just out damage a Pandemonium but what is more important is a Invictus used by the AI is much deadlier to your fleet than a Pandemonium along with being tough as nails low-tech to tank a lot of damage.

With DA being a Midline series and personally the weakest out of low-tech, midline and high-tech they have limited shield arcs and middling armor and exposed flanks.  Both the Pandemonium a the Maelstrom are easy to flank even by capitals but not you Invictus as you have eaten to many snacks. I was also wrong the Pandemonium stock is only 70 deployment points I must have been looking when my character was assigned to it. Even so, the 8 combat focused mounting slots are good and the other mounts are mostly relegated to IBIS or Raptors.  The Dampened Mounts range bonus is needed for those large mounts as you might be 200 away from the front of the ship.  Don't get me wrong I do not hate or dislike the ship.  But the ordnance points are light on it and DA at some point had a big push to be "Vanilla" and likely got pushed to bit under Vanilla.  Do I think it is still overcoated at 70? Yes, 100% in the current state.  Should it be 60, debatable likely closer to 65 via the large carrier aspect.  But there is room for tinkering and examination.

I'm always willing to try stuff and see what works and what does not work.

I can see panda being non threatening from a player perspective as the AI won't utilize its strengths correctly. It's one of those ships that is really strong in player hands but kind of middling in AI hands because various reasons, including the weaknesses you mentioned. Probably why it's not fielded that often in AI fleets.
In the player hands, flanking is no problem because player can use ship system to quickly turn around but AI uses all its charges just moving back and forth instead of strategically to dump flux or punish flankers or reload weapons. AI also won't abuse the superior range of the panda to "kite". It's true the paragon can outrange the panda but only if it is using 1000 range beams, otherwise the panda is going to be winning the range game. Nearly all non beam large energies are 700 range. A 1000 range recson v gets extended to 1200 range and then further by itu to 1920 range. The larges might be a closer match since they are a lot further back but it's not a huge discrepancy I think. Uhlans will still reach out to 2080 range. And anyway, other capital ships aren't so lucky to have +100% range like the paragon does.
The last loadout I used for panda under AI control was 6 thrush + 2 opfer + 4 artassault at the front. It had rear facing hexafires to deter flankers and that weird orb PD weapon in the 360 medium turret and some ibis' in the middle smalls. For wanzers, it had a raven, a blizzaia, and an avalanche I think or maybe that support wanzer. This panda was part of a heavy carrier focused fleet though, in which all medium missiles (2 from storms, 1 from fractuses) were thrushes so there were tons of micro missiles and wanzer flying around preventing enemies from easily maneuvering.
Also something that came to mind while writing this is PD with dampened mounts is ridiculously strong. +200 range is insanity, close to 60% range boost for the ibis for example. Enemy fleets have a very hard time using fighters or missiles against diable capitals.