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[Pizzarugi]

I always felt like the point of Starsector was to make you miserable. Which is fitting if it comes to how you feel about the new update and its crisis events. Persean League bullying the player is fitting for their lore. It'll disperse any doubts about them being the good guys, because the game was kinda trying to make it obvious that the only reason Persean League exists is cause Kazeron is evil and strong enough to submit all the other governments to their control. And the whole anti-Hegemony narrative is just the Hegemony *** up during the Mairaath events and allowing various factions to start their propaganda machines to paint them as territorial buffoons...

Damn... Kinda sad that I burned myself out on this game, I would probably love this update. Oh, well.

I dunno, I don't think them strong-arming you into joining them was necessary to make you question the moral goodness of the Persean League. Don't get me wrong, it definitely fits, but their true colors were shown as far back as their choice of allies. Of all the factions, they aligned themselves with the Sindrian Diktat. Trying not to step too far into politics as I don't know what the rules are about that here, but the Diktat has a very uncanny resemblance to a very evil historical regime reflected in both its aesthetics and how its people talk. That alone makes me sketchy about how the Persean League wants to think of themselves as the good guys, but their crisis only drives it home how bad they are.

[Ragnarok101]

My beef with the Perseans is, once again, the *size* of the crisis compared to the trigger.

Pirates hate you for existing: understandable, they're pirates. They're also easily handleable either manually or by just bribing Kanta with lobsters or a Fusion Lamp.

Pathers hate you for using tech: understandable. Not easily handled in vanilla, but mods allow you to render them irrelevant similarly to how other factions can deal with them, and your patrols will fight them off if you're developed enough to attract major attacks.

Tri-Tach hates you for being too prosperous: you can be an inconvenience, their calculation is based on a balance sheet so you can prove you're better to bring on as an asset than to annoy, and they don't directly blockade or attack you, plus the mercs are bribeable.

Luddics hate you for attracting people away from the Church: again, reasonable, they're also fairly simple to deal with and if you're like me and want some Invictii for system defense it's useful to set off. Giving in to them basically just entails losing a bonus, too, so RP potential.

Hegemony hates you for using AI cores: don't use AI cores, simple. Their major attacks can be fought off as well, and aren't instantly dropping giant death fleets on you, just inspection fleets, which after being fought off multiple times allow you to tell Baikal Daud to *** off.

The Diktat, being mostly insular, reacts only to you having fuel production that threatens their dominance of said market. You can get them to *** off by demonstrating you're capable of making things even worse for them, or fighting them off.

The Persean League takes an interest when you have 2 colonies or one at size 5. Basically, for existing. Not too bad, pirates do the same...but pirates don't launch *14* fleets at you to blockade your colonies, and they can be stopped entirely with negotiation. The Persean League requires you to do the same thing as you would for the Sindrian Diktat crisis - namely fighting through their capitol's defenses to steal their stuff - for a *reduction* in League dues. Your negotiation amounts to making their victory less complete, while *fighting* the blockade is ridiculous because, again, they launch *14* fleets for comparatively little. You could have less people than it takes to crew an Invictus in the ass-end of nowhere pulling rocks out of an inhospitable hellhole and the League would still send enough people to fill a size 5 colony halfway across the sector to bully them into submission. Every other faction has an element of 'proportional response', with them committing relatively limited resources or using cutouts to avoid getting directly entangled, and being able to be negotiated with without too much in the way of backlash - and they have ways of ameliorating the crisis beforehand.

You can avoid selling too many different products to avoid Tri-Tach. You can reduce colony items and AI cores to avoid Pathers and the Hegemony. You can choose to not sell fuel to avoid the Diktat. But if you have 2 colonies or one that grows without hazard pay, you are *going* to have to face the League, and they are *going* to commit a disproportionate amount of resources to being an annoyance.

[Megas]

The Persean League takes an interest when you have 2 colonies or one at size 5. Basically, for existing. Not too bad, pirates do the same...but pirates don't launch *14* fleets at you to blockade your colonies, and they can be stopped entirely with negotiation. The Persean League requires you to do the same thing as you would for the Sindrian Diktat crisis - namely fighting through their capitol's defenses to steal their stuff - for a *reduction* in League dues. Your negotiation amounts to making their victory less complete, while *fighting* the blockade is ridiculous because, again, they launch *14* fleets for comparatively little. You could have less people than it takes to crew an Invictus in the ass-end of nowhere pulling rocks out of an inhospitable hellhole and the League would still send enough people to fill a size 5 colony halfway across the sector to bully them into submission. Every other faction has an element of 'proportional response', with them committing relatively limited resources or using cutouts to avoid getting directly entangled, and being able to be negotiated with without too much in the way of backlash - and they have ways of ameliorating the crisis beforehand.

Pirates spawned more than ten fleets to attack my colonies (I forgot exact count, but it felt a lot like the League blockade), although their fleets are weaker than League's.  I wrote spawned because I took the fight to them and peeled off four by attacking a patrol near them, then killed several more of what was left in hyperspace (had to wait for CR and armor/hull to recover some), and the rest of the fleets fled and I won the crisis for Piracy Respite.

But the thing about pirates is even if you are too weak, bribing Kanta to end the crisis gives a better reward than fighting pirates, so fighting them is optional.

Pirates hate you for existing: understandable, they're pirates. They're also easily handleable either manually or by just bribing Kanta with lobsters or a Fusion Lamp.

Million credits will do the trick too.

[freakingcynik]

The Persean League takes an interest when you have 2 colonies or one at size 5. Basically, for existing.

Just for the sake of accuracy, they take interest for having existed for a while, or having grown. Putting down a second colony is a choice, growing to size 5 takes time. I think it's fair to expect the player to build his fleet and up his fighting ability during that time, as it's the focus of the game. And I guess the Persean League acts kind of like a boss of the "colony arc" of the game, they're latest to come in the mandatory ones.

And yes, "14 fleets", but it's a winnable fight, even without using the alternate means provided by the text. You have to use basic strategy, though, facing all of them head-on in the open sure isn't a good idea.
To keep going with the boss analogy, it's similar to one in a soulslike. Big "oh ***" moment when you see them coming the first time, you get bashed if you try to bruteforce it, and you fight your way through unfavorable odds to eventually win. It really had a similar flavor to me, but I can understand that it's not for everyone.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

The Persean League takes an interest when you have 2 colonies or one at size 5. Basically, for existing.

Just for the sake of accuracy, they take interest for having existed for a while, or having grown. Putting down a second colony is a choice, growing to size 5 takes time. I think it's fair to expect the player to build his fleet and up his fighting ability during that time, as it's the focus of the game. And I guess the Persean League acts kind of like a boss of the "colony arc" of the game, they're latest to come in the mandatory ones.

And yes, "14 fleets", but it's a winnable fight, even without using the alternate means provided by the text. You have to use basic strategy, though, facing all of them head-on in the open sure isn't a good idea.
To keep going with the boss analogy, it's similar to one in a soulslike. Big "oh ***" moment when you see them coming the first time, you get bashed if you try to bruteforce it, and you fight your way through unfavorable odds to eventually win. It really had a similar flavor to me, but I can understand that it's not for everyone.

If you rush High commands in a system with six or so worlds, put AI cores on them, have AI admins, have at least one extreme heat world with a Cryoarithmetic engine, and then improve them all, you don't need to fight the PL, as your system fleets will just kill them.

I just did a Nex run with this strategy. The Hegemony stole Kazeron and then proceeded to send a 17 fleet blockade at me. My system fleets beat them within three days.
Let me know if you want screenshots for proof. I would just post them, but they're too large to post, so I have to compress them which is work I can't be bothered to do unless asked.

[freakingcynik]

If you rush High commands in a system with six or so worlds, put AI cores on them, have AI admins, have at least one extreme heat world with a Cryoarithmetic engine, and then improve them all, you don't need to fight the PL, as your system fleets will just kill them.

I just did a Nex run with this strategy. The Hegemony stole Kazeron and then proceeded to send a 17 fleet blockade at me. My system fleets beat them within three days.
Let me know if you want screenshots for proof. I would just post them, but they're too large to post, so I have to compress them which is work I can't be bothered to do unless asked.

I have no problems believing that, but it's a lot of stuff to pay/explore for. I think the discussion is more geared toward an average playthrough, your exemple is like waiting to have an endgame fleet before colonizing, it makes the situation kinda irrelevant for a balance discussion.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

If you rush High commands in a system with six or so worlds, put AI cores on them, have AI admins, have at least one extreme heat world with a Cryoarithmetic engine, and then improve them all, you don't need to fight the PL, as your system fleets will just kill them.

I just did a Nex run with this strategy. The Hegemony stole Kazeron and then proceeded to send a 17 fleet blockade at me. My system fleets beat them within three days.
Let me know if you want screenshots for proof. I would just post them, but they're too large to post, so I have to compress them which is work I can't be bothered to do unless asked.

I have no problems believing that, but it's a lot of stuff to pay/explore for. I think the discussion is more geared toward an average playthrough, your exemple is like waiting to have an endgame fleet before colonizing, it makes the situation kinda irrelevant for a balance discussion.

True. If you could buy alpha cores it would be fine, but as it is you have to farm Ordos or explore all of the sector to get that many alphas.

[Talmund-Alpha]

For me, if the game isn't challenging, then it, sadly, quickly bores me. Limiting myself to only salvaging ships, not using markets and colonizing high hazard worlds on purpose to need more money always made my playthrough longer, but it always lacked some end-game.
Seeing so many posts about busted multi-fleet invasions trying to attack your colonies? Not simply an unending spam that quickly becomes a chore, but a clear event with a big invasion at the end? Like a dream come true

There should probably be a hard limit on how many fleets can spawn, especially with Easy mode for new players, but I wholeheartedly support more difficult challenges if you want them.
If you only want a colony to stash items and have your own ship production, you can just stay at size 3. (I think? Is it still safe?)

Imma be real wit you chief, you may have slightly more hours than the vast majority of people who play the game.

The rest of this isn't directed at you, and is more of a general statement.

I feel like the core issue we have here is that this game is... long. A single run can easily take 10-20+ hours to reach even the midgame, meaning that if you want to retain new players they have to be able to learn how to reach the end game and to a degree, shamble through the same things a player with 1000+ hours has to get through, but on their first run. A new player doesn't have nearly as much investment into the game as an old one, so if they get curb stomped (which is what seems to be happening as of .97) and their run is lost, then there's a decent likelihood they'll just stop playing. Easy is definitely a tone-down, but the core issue with the league crisis (The massive amount + size of fleets) hasn't seemingly been addressed. Until it's dealt with, threads like this will probably just show up again and again.

What's there to address? You already have multiple ways to deal with the PL crisis, some of which don't require combat at all.

You have three ways to deal with the Persean League crisis, and currently they aren't good.

There's the option of directly fighting, which is what most people seem to take if they don't want to larp as the persean league. This option has already been discussed in detail on this thread as to why it's not ideal for new players.

There's the option of capitulating, joining the league and taking a reputation hit with everyone else since they drag you into wars constantly. By the endgame, expect most other factions to be in the red with you. This is currently the best option for new players, but as it turns out, people are stubborn. Starsector is an open-world game, so don't expect the playerbase drawn in for that to enjoy being pidgeonholed.

There's also the third, normally untouched option of just tactically bombarding Kazeron. From what I can tell, this is the second-best option for new players, but is still not ideal in the slightest, since the league will become hostile through this action, and you get no reward from beating the siege this way besides a return to the status quo (minus a reduction in accessibility since there's less markets to trade with) and I think eventually being able to join the persean league at a cheaper rate. To me this seems like the nuclear option, and most people don't seem to want to lose accessibility so normally you'll find new players who dislike/don't want to join the Persean League throwing themselves at the brick wall that is the first option (also you have to destroy Kazeron station which, as a Star fortress, is going to put up a fight, to say nothing of the fleets guarding the planet).

Technically there's a fourth way, that being to just wait out the siege, but if we're resorting to just pretending the crisis isn't happening then we have some major issues.

These are the options, and there is no alternative.[/size][/size]

So what is your suggestion then? All Im seeing in these posts are people disliking the options the game gives to combat the crisies (especially the PL), to me Tac Bombing Kazeron is the best choice both in gameplay and in roleplaying since I couldn't care less if PL is hostile to me since they are already blockading my *** system, if anything I always just declare war on the PL after the blockade because even if tritach was raiding my commerce or hegemony was looking for cores at least those factions where conduction "grey" operations, the PL tho is straight up blockading my system with one of their biggest armadas so that is an act of war in my eyes. If you people dislike this system so much you should provide some alternatives so the developers or maybe some mod authors can take inspiration.

Personally, I think a good long term solution would be to add a hard mode, tone the league crisis down in normal + easy, and otherwise leave it at that. This allows for people who like the challenge to get their cake, and people who don't to have an easier time. Win-win. This will take time however, hence why I say it's a long term goal.
 
However in the intervening time between then and now, it'd probably be best to maybe make the reward for the crisis something that is meaningfully useful in a short amount of time when you tac bomb Kazeron, since the reduction to a 5% tax is only really useable after getting your reputation back up. Most new players are going to gravitate towards simply standing and fighting, so you've gotta apply some tactics to get them to play like the pirates.

Generally speaking, if someone is new to a game they're more likely to read the filler text, especially after realizing what they're up against, so make the bombardment seem more appealing and clearly intended as a solution, something like "Without near-overwhelming force, the most viable option is to take out the military installations on Kazeron" or something less blunt. Highlight it so they'll take notice of it, and make it clear which option is the harder one.

Ultimately it's Alex's call, but this is what I came up with after a few minutes of thinking, so he can probably come up with some better ideas to deal with the issue.

[majk]

Pirates hate you for existing: understandable, they're pirates. They're also easily handleable either manually or by just bribing Kanta with lobsters or a Fusion Lamp.

Pirates don't hate you, they just don't respect you and treat you like cattle or a loot pinata just waiting to be beaten and have shiny loot fall out.

Unless you actually bribed Kanta, in that case some DO hate you for being successful.

[Alski]

It's easy. What about are you?

If you can not deal with that it does not mean it should be nerfed. Just hide at Corvus's Abandoned Terraforming Platform, Mayasura's Abandoned Astropolis or Yma's Abandoned Siphon Station and think about your fleet, how to deal with it.

Simple tip: establishing colonies you should undestand that you seems to provoke some hoslite actions towards you, so you need get prepared for that.

I have no idea what (if any mods) your playing with, but ever single one of the fleets i faced from this event had at least 2 pegasus ships, i ended up just killing most of them with the help of a star fortress and repairing via colony. This was in the year 211.

[Killer of Fate]

it doesn't matter, Persean League is just hard countered by that guy's fleet composition, cause their doctrine is to homogenous too adapt via Darwinism. So, Onslaughts and Invicti just shoot down every incoming missile and absorb High Intensity Laser with its 500 hit strength with ease. And then wipe out every ship Persean League has by the virtue of being immune to all their weapons.

Plus s-mods, XIV is dumb, and maxed out officers.

So, basically when this guy says "it's easy", they're just being mean to you, cause I bet they've grinded those freaking 25 morbillion bonus xp by killing Remnants for 20 months and then walking out of there and being like "alright, imma post this to reddit".

No offence, big guy... Respect to your min-maxing.

[Sinigr]

It's easy. What about are you?

If you can not deal with that it does not mean it should be nerfed. Just hide at Corvus's Abandoned Terraforming Platform, Mayasura's Abandoned Astropolis or Yma's Abandoned Siphon Station and think about your fleet, how to deal with it.

Simple tip: establishing colonies you should undestand that you seems to provoke some hoslite actions towards you, so you need get prepared for that.

I have no idea what (if any mods) your playing with, but ever single one of the fleets i faced from this event had at least 2 pegasus ships, i ended up just killing most of them with the help of a star fortress and repairing via colony. This was in the year 211.

There is no mods, just how it is. It is written in description...

[Alski]

So, basically when this guy says "it's easy", they're just being mean to you, cause I bet they've grinded those freaking 25 morbillion bonus xp by killing Remnants for 20 months and then walking out of there and being like "alright, imma post this to reddit".

Yea I don't care about that part, what i want to know is why his PL crisis fleets are so weak and mine were so strong.

[Sinigr]

it doesn't matter, Persean League is just hard countered by that guy's fleet composition, cause their doctrine is to homogenous too adapt via Darwinism. So, Onslaughts and Invicti just shoot down every incoming missile and absorb High Intensity Laser with its 500 hit strength with ease. And then wipe out every ship Persean League has by the virtue of being immune to all their weapons.

Plus s-mods, XIV is dumb, and maxed out officers.

So, basically when this guy says "it's easy", they're just being mean to you, cause I bet they've grinded those freaking 25 morbillion bonus xp by killing Remnants for 20 months and then walking out of there and being like "alright, imma post this to reddit".

No offence, big guy... Respect to your min-maxing.

No, it's not corectly so. I made one run at normal difficulty specifically to find out how much time is needed to make 4 Onslaughts XIV. I spend 4 hours to make it with maxed lvl and officers, okey menos one onslaught to hunt invictus, it does not metter. So, I show it to let others know thet there are easy ways how to punch someshing like that blockade. And it is just one of those options. Four hours, Carl, 25 morbillon bonus exp killing Remnants for 20 about what you speak? Okey, seems there is necessity to record some video how to make some Onslaughts spending several hours without hunting Ramnants.

[Sinigr]

In fact, you were given a cool fan, a crisis to solve, think about, play, but someone complains. Okay, I'm an old player, but when I started, my colonies were bombed as expected, i was wiped out to Corvus's Terraforming platform, and I didn't complain, just thought about how to counter this, and played. It was so exciting, those first runs, how many slaps I received then, it was awasome.