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Author Topic: Colony building that gives SP  (Read 777 times)

SafariJohn

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Re: Colony building that gives SP
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2024, 05:41:18 PM »

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Megas

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Re: Colony building that gives SP
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2024, 05:52:13 PM »

If it was skill based then you would presumably lose them (in the same way you lose them if you install them in a ship and then remove the 3 story point install skill) which would be… an issue.

And if you don’t remove them then spending time in the industry tree would be pretty much too optimal.
We do not lose the credits we gain (as a byproduct) from Industry.  Player gets more credits from IP as a result of more commodities exported, and we do not lose the money after we remove IP from our skill set (though we lose the boosted production that produce more money).  Ships do not lose hull or armor if we respec away from Field Repairs because we got free repairs after a fight before a respec.

I guess it would be too optimal for passive SP gain early in the game when player would not have that many any other way.  I doubt it would be a problem late in the game when other skills support more powerful fleets that can farm more SP than an Industry build missing some of the critical meta skills.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2024, 06:07:05 PM by Megas »
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Mishrak

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Re: Colony building that gives SP
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2024, 08:50:14 AM »

Yeah the entire point of a system like this is to add some small QoL in the end game where the player would otherwise resort to mods to make things less tedious to grind.


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SCC

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Re: Colony building that gives SP
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2024, 10:53:06 AM »

I don't think the time when you're beating crises can be called "early game", so I think it's fair to get some passive SP generation at that point.

landryraccoon

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Re: Colony building that gives SP
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2024, 11:46:35 AM »

This is probably a minority viewpoint but I would go in the opposite direction. Story points shouldn't become just another depreciating currency.

After a certain number of total S-mods in your fleet, additional s-mods should cost 2 SP and then 4 SP, with no limit. Like colony improvements have scaling SP cost.Let the player have soft cap of S-mods for the entire fleet, but no single-ship limit.

If you could spend all of your story points to mod one super ship that your player pilots, that sounds like a "Story". It would be super cool to trick out one single combat freighter so it can fight off cruisers Han Solo style, or an Eagle until it can bully a Paragon. They aren't "Galactic Khan Empire Logistics Points". How does the "Story" even matter if you're churning out stories at one of the metropolises of your burgeoning interstellar polity?

SP stands for "Story Points". I don't like the idea of them becoming another min-max currency for your absurdly-large-armada. I like the fact that they can be used to get slightly better rewards for missions, and quality of life improvements like ignoring patrols, and generally pulling off legendary hero ***. IMHO that is where their usage should be centered.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2024, 01:24:42 PM by landryraccoon »
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Vanshilar

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Re: Colony building that gives SP
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2024, 07:13:31 PM »

No. By and large SP is based on XP which is based on the player actively doing something, the vast majority of which comes from fighting battles (and a small amount from trading, quests, etc.). In other words, the reward is based on the player actively playing the game. Not coincidentally, the biggest use of SP is on improving the player fleet, which allows the player to fight battles more effectively.

The player being able to gain SP passively from sitting in some corner somewhere and sticking a heavy paperweight on the shift button is bad game design. The player should have to actually *do* something within the game to gain SP that is then used to improve the player's fleet. The player shouldn't be able to wait things out and then suddenly have a fleet of fully smodded ships and fully elited officers.

The obvious counterargument is credits, which colonies can passively generate. But credits are a totally different animal. Credits help the player get an initial, "starter" fleet (ships, weapons, etc.), which the player then improves over time via SP (s-mods, officer skills, etc.). So credits should be more abundant in case the player has a fleet wipe or would rather not get involved in heavy fighting just yet (i.e. spends their time trading), i.e. as they're learning the game. So in some sense credits are the "starter" currency while SP are the "later" currency". So it's fine for the player to passively generate credits, and credits are pretty worthless later on anyway because it becomes so easy to get. But SP is totally different in how it works within the game.
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Megas

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Re: Colony building that gives SP
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2024, 06:50:12 AM »

I fail to see how passive SP gain is anymore "bad design" than passive credit gain when SP is used primarily for tangible upgrades.

High passive credit gain requires building colonies and either 1) wait about ten years for your five colonies to grow to size 6 and kill enemies to defend them and/or raise the cash to grow them or 2) grind Ordos for all the alpha cores player needs to build hundreds of size 3 colonies for stacked Pop&Inf. income.  By the time the player can get high passive credit gain, he may already be farming Ordos or at the endgame, crises events aside.  Sure, there may be credit exploits, but the player is doing something, even if it is not fighting.

Improving ships is exactly the sort of thing I expect credits to be used for (take to the refit screen and spend money like other services).  Maybe buffing officers and player too (pay them to go to an academy or something).  Leave Story Points for story events or meta things that would not make sense to spend credits on (like fleeing from an encounter).  That would also help reduce clutter in the History tag where accomplishment-worthy events get drowned out by too many upgrade messages.

Having two currencies when one of them is supposed to act as universal currency for anything tangible is more complicated than it needs to be.

If the two currencies stay as they are, the Story Points ought to be renamed to something more apt like "Action Points" or "Upgrade Points".  Do not record every use of SP on History, only those that are accomplishment worthy and not mundane stuff like character or fleet upgrades.
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Vanshilar

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Re: Colony building that gives SP
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2024, 12:58:41 AM »

High passive credit gain requires building colonies

Once a player reaches level 15, if they have a commission then they gain over 1 million credits every cycle just for sitting around. They could go out exploring for a while and come back rich even if they don't find anything.

Having two currencies when one of them is supposed to act as universal currency for anything tangible is more complicated than it needs to be.

Again, one of them is starter currency so the player can always get going even after a wipe, while the other is gated behind actually doing something within the game. This is not that different from RPGs where you can buy some weapons/armor from the shoppies, but to get the best weapons/armors you have to go out and kill some difficult monster or boss or otherwise actively fulfill some mission. This is a pretty common approach in games and is not at all unique to Starsector. In fact in many such games, money becomes essentially worthless later on because it's so plentiful.

If the two currencies stay as they are, the Story Points ought to be renamed to something more apt like "Action Points" or "Upgrade Points".  Do not record every use of SP on History, only those that are accomplishment worthy and not mundane stuff like character or fleet upgrades.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this many times before. Oh yes I did, here for example. Regardless of their name, the main source of gaining Story Points is via XP which is mostly from fighting, and their main use is upgrading your fleet (through smods and through elite skills). So they're basically just another way to level up or improve your fleet, but gives bonuses that you can't really get any other way. Thus, passive SP gain is a bad idea. They should be from actively doing something within the game.
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Megas

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Re: Colony building that gives SP
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2024, 08:51:15 AM »

Once a player reaches level 15, if they have a commission then they gain over 1 million credits every cycle just for sitting around. They could go out exploring for a while and come back rich even if they don't find anything.
That is about 100k a month.  If they have colonies, the hostilities cut into accessibility (and colony income and growth) some, though probably not enough to lose more than they gain from commission.  (I do not want to take time out to check numbers now.)

Waiting a year in-game in a Dram for a million is lame though.  I do not want to be away from keyboard waiting that long to get that much.

Again, one of them is starter currency so the player can always get going even after a wipe, while the other is gated behind actually doing something within the game. This is not that different from RPGs where you can buy some weapons/armor from the shoppies, but to get the best weapons/armors you have to go out and kill some difficult monster or boss or otherwise actively fulfill some mission. This is a pretty common approach in games and is not at all unique to Starsector. In fact in many such games, money becomes essentially worthless later on because it's so plentiful.
I do not like "Money for Nothing" in other games either.  No reason Starsector should make the same mistake other games do.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this many times before. Oh yes I did, here for example. Regardless of their name, the main source of gaining Story Points is via XP which is mostly from fighting, and their main use is upgrading your fleet (through smods and through elite skills). So they're basically just another way to level up or improve your fleet, but gives bonuses that you can't really get any other way. Thus, passive SP gain is a bad idea. They should be from actively doing something within the game.
As long as SP is used mostly as currency for upgrades, and Starsector has no problem with money for nothing, then passive SP is not necessarily a bad idea late in the game, after player exhausts non-combat sources of SP.  (Too early cheapens the non-combat sources of SP.)  Slow passive gain, after player obtains that power somehow, can alleviate the grinding for more SP if player is not interested in dedicating his game at farming for them.
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