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Author Topic: Pre-Made Officer Loadouts  (Read 2793 times)

Mishrak

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Pre-Made Officer Loadouts
« on: January 04, 2024, 12:52:59 PM »

Would it be possible for us to know these preset skills ahead of time?  Will they always be the same or is there some randomness from playthrough to playthrough?

I'm really hoping these loadouts are good, because nothing feels worse than getting a 7 or a 5 skill bro in a pod and realize their skill allocations are not useful at all.

A quick example of one of the builds:
t.elite.add(Skills.DAMAGE_CONTROL);
t.elite.add(Skills.IMPACT_MITIGATION);
t.elite.add(Skills.POLARIZED_ARMOR);
t.elite.add(Skills.BALLISTIC_MASTERY);
t.elite.add(Skills.TARGET_ANALYSIS);
t.base.add(Skills.MISSILE_SPECIALIZATION);
t.base.add(Skills.GUNNERY_IMPLANTS);

There's also a version of that one minus damage control and plus ordnance expertise. I'd just as soon not get into all the details, especially not in this thread, though if someone wants to start a different thread, or continue in this one:
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=26964.0

Rather than necro the old post, I thought I'd post a new thread instead.  I will say I don't expect to have everything laid out in perfect detail before release, but getting some insight would be beneficial I think.

1. What is the approach when assigning a set of skills to the officers?

2. Can we expect a degree of RNG/variance with the skills, or are they going to be static across all playthroughs?

I do feel like it's not a massive deal to have one sub optimal skill in the list, but it should at least be useful even partially.  If there's two, or ones that conflict drastically (e.g. EWM + Ballistic Mastery), the officer starts to feel useless.

I'd really like to see the officers have an obvious slant towards a weapon system or defense type and maybe a ship class.  e.g. A capital officer would want most of the maneuverability skills.

What else would people like to see from this?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2024, 12:57:21 PM by Mishrak »
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Alex

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Re: Pre-Made Officer Loadouts
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2024, 01:28:03 PM »

1. What is the approach when assigning a set of skills to the officers?
...
I'd really like to see the officers have an obvious slant towards a weapon system or defense type and maybe a ship class.  e.g. A capital officer would want most of the maneuverability skills.

There's a bunch of sets - usually geared to something, such as "low tech tank" or "high tech frigate" or "phase ship" or "general purpose ok on anything" and one is picked for an officer.


2. Can we expect a degree of RNG/variance with the skills, or are they going to be static across all playthroughs?

There are more pre-defined sets for level 7s than there are level 7s in a given playthrough (4) so sort-of-yes, but there are no more fully-RNG-skill level 7s. For level 5s, it's half and half RNG vs picking a template.
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vladokapuh

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Re: Pre-Made Officer Loadouts
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2024, 01:49:32 PM »

so theres still just a big chance i get something useless instead of a reward
now it will just be a preset useless instead of random useless

there should either be a way to slowly change officers skills, or select the officer type
i wont mind spending story points or credits as long as i can do it at all
imo this could be a cool feature for a colony, or a small chance at a bar (but more expensive)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2024, 01:59:13 PM by vladokapuh »
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Nettle

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Re: Pre-Made Officer Loadouts
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2024, 02:09:50 PM »

Just saying, all (or some) officers could come with levels for you to distribute instead of already locked-in skills.
But since there is an entire system with thought out presets in place to handle this its probably ain't happening.
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Amoebka

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Re: Pre-Made Officer Loadouts
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2024, 02:18:25 PM »

There are more pre-defined sets for level 7s than there are level 7s in a given playthrough (4) so sort-of-yes, but there are no more fully-RNG-skill level 7s. For level 5s, it's half and half RNG vs picking a template.
Are the types of officers fixed, while specific loadouts are random, or is it completely random? Can a player get 4 low-tech officers and no phase/HT ones in a playthrough?
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PixiCode

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Re: Pre-Made Officer Loadouts
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2024, 02:32:27 PM »

Hmm I like the idea of these special officers being RNG but from a preset that clearly favors one playstyle. Might encourage the player to lean to a specific playstyle if they so desire.
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Alex

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Re: Pre-Made Officer Loadouts
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2024, 03:24:55 PM »

The idea for this is it's something strong you find that may or may not fit what you had in mind, and that you adapt and build around if you want to take advantage of it. Or maybe you get lucky and it fits. But in general - both in this, and in other aspects of the game - having an inflexible idea of what you're doing in mind when you start is going to make your life harder. That's totally fine, and restrictions like that can make things more fun, but that's just the breaks if you choose to do that.

Can a player get 4 low-tech officers and no phase/HT ones in a playthrough?

Yes, absolutely!

Just saying, all (or some) officers could come with levels for you to distribute instead of already locked-in skills.
But since there is an entire system with thought out presets in place to handle this its probably ain't happening.

I understand what you're saying, yeah. But that's just intentionally not how this works. I think "adapt to what you've got" can be more interesting than "make it fit exactly what you want". And then getting something that actually works well can be more exciting too, if it's not something you can reliably mold every time. The problem with the old implementation of level 7 cryopod officers is that they're all too often be no good for *anything*.
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Amoebka

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Re: Pre-Made Officer Loadouts
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2024, 03:44:00 PM »

"Taking what the dungeon gives you" is a cool design for games, but it only works well if the randomness is mostly frontloaded in the early game. Cryopod officers are something you will normally find quite late, after you've invested millions in your ships and s-modded them. At that point it would feel sucky to trash all that to take advantage of level 7s (which is a big enough power boost to bother).
Might also encourage unpleasant game patterns, where you scout the whole sector to get officers, and then build your fleet around them.
Not specifically talking about the officers here, it feels like Starsector in general makes switching playstyles in the late game rather painful. Yet the random drops are mostly lategame territory (colony items, cryopods, omega weapons).
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Nettle

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Re: Pre-Made Officer Loadouts
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2024, 03:49:32 PM »

I understand what you're saying, yeah. But that's just intentionally not how this works. I think "adapt to what you've got" can be more interesting than "make it fit exactly what you want". And then getting something that actually works well can be more exciting too, if it's not something you can reliably mold every time. The problem with the old implementation of level 7 cryopod officers is that they're all too often be no good for *anything*.

Got it. By the way something I want to know if you have time to answer - is it possible that we would get a finer control over leveling up hired officers in the future, like a skill tree of some sorts, or the somewhat randomized skill selection menu is also fundamentally a part of "make do with what you get" design for officers?

"Taking what the dungeon gives you" is a cool design for games, but it only works well if the randomness is mostly frontloaded in the early game. Cryopod officers are something you will normally find quite late, after you've invested millions in your ships and s-modded them.

Why is it specifically a late game thing? Is there a system to give you cryo officers more often the longer the save is running? Because I would often get almost full officer roster within the first cycle if I scavenge enough derelict ships, so this wasn't my experience.
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Mishrak

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Re: Pre-Made Officer Loadouts
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2024, 03:58:37 PM »


"Taking what the dungeon gives you" is a cool design for games, but it only works well if the randomness is mostly frontloaded in the early game. Cryopod officers are something you will normally find quite late, after you've invested millions in your ships and s-modded them.

Why is it specifically a late game thing? Is there a system to give you cryo officers more often the longer the save is running? Because I would often get almost full officer roster within the first cycle if I scavenge enough derelict ships, so this wasn't my experience.

Yeah I agree.  It's actually not late game at all that I find these.  I always find them early on when I'm doing the most exploration.

The idea for this is it's something strong you find that may or may not fit what you had in mind, and that you adapt and build around if you want to take advantage of it. Or maybe you get lucky and it fits. But in general - both in this, and in other aspects of the game - having an inflexible idea of what you're doing in mind when you start is going to make your life harder. That's totally fine, and restrictions like that can make things more fun, but that's just the breaks if you choose to do that.

Can a player get 4 low-tech officers and no phase/HT ones in a playthrough?

Yes, absolutely!

So in a sense, it's less that the skills specifically are random - although there is some variance among them - but more that it's the loadout types that are random.  I think this is fine as long as the skills allocated are all suitable for that role.  I would argue against being able to have a lot of the same style in a single play, but I can see the other side of that argument as well.

I personally would prefer a more specific choosing of skills, particularly since I can already obtain this via the savescum method (let the officer gain exp without leveling them until they're maxed, then save scum till I get the skill set that I want).   This is a way of life for me as an officer enjoyer.  Hopefully down the line there's a bit more of a better system in place, but I definitely respect the idea that you don't want players to have full control over this.
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Amoebka

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Re: Pre-Made Officer Loadouts
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2024, 04:05:40 PM »

I'm talking about level 7s, of which only 4 exist, not just "normal" cryopod level 5s (which are pointless in the long run). Maybe I don't explore dilligently enough, but in most playthroughs, I don't even find more than 2. Finding one early is pure luck.
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Alex

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Re: Pre-Made Officer Loadouts
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2024, 04:40:23 PM »

Yeah, it's luck when you find one. I've often found one early; this current playthrough I haven't found any (to the point where I want to make sure they're not bugged, hah).

Got it. By the way something I want to know if you have time to answer - is it possible that we would get a finer control over leveling up hired officers in the future, like a skill tree of some sorts, or the somewhat randomized skill selection menu is also fundamentally a part of "make do with what you get" design for officers?

It's a possibility, I can see both sides of it and am not 100% set either way. I could e.g. see mentoring unlocking an extra skill pick or two, or some such.

"Taking what the dungeon gives you" is a cool design for games, but it only works well if the randomness is mostly frontloaded in the early game. Cryopod officers are something you will normally find quite late, after you've invested millions in your ships and s-modded them. At that point it would feel sucky to trash all that to take advantage of level 7s (which is a big enough power boost to bother).
Might also encourage unpleasant game patterns, where you scout the whole sector to get officers, and then build your fleet around them.
Not specifically talking about the officers here, it feels like Starsector in general makes switching playstyles in the late game rather painful. Yet the random drops are mostly lategame territory (colony items, cryopods, omega weapons).

I get what you're saying, yeah. I think with level 7 officers specifically, if I got one I wanted to build a ship around, it'd be exciting rather than annoying (and you can always scuttle the ship you're discarding to get a bunch of bonus XP). And it's designing just one new ship, so for me it'd fall under "interesting" rather than "tedious". Where things definitely do get annoying is if you're trying to switch fleet comps wholesale, though.

So in a sense, it's less that the skills specifically are random - although there is some variance among them - but more that it's the loadout types that are random.  I think this is fine as long as the skills allocated are all suitable for that role.  I would argue against being able to have a lot of the same style in a single play, but I can see the other side of that argument as well.

*thumbs up*

I personally would prefer a more specific choosing of skills, particularly since I can already obtain this via the savescum method (let the officer gain exp without leveling them until they're maxed, then save scum till I get the skill set that I want).   This is a way of life for me as an officer enjoyer.  Hopefully down the line there's a bit more of a better system in place, but I definitely respect the idea that you don't want players to have full control over this.

Oh, that works? Interesting! <makes notes> (No, but this is a hard thing to make save-scumming not work for. If you e.g. fix an RNG seed, that could still be gamed by picking skills in a different order and thus changing to skill pool for the next pick, etc.)
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Mishrak

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Re: Pre-Made Officer Loadouts
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2024, 04:51:08 PM »

Oh, that works? Interesting! <makes notes> (No, but this is a hard thing to make save-scumming not work for. If you e.g. fix an RNG seed, that could still be gamed by picking skills in a different order and thus changing to skill pool for the next pick, etc.)

…you didn’t know this worked?  >.> It definitely doesn’t work haha I was just testing you it definitely doesn’t work.

In all seriousness, it’s not perfect because once you pick one the selection choices lock in. Ofc you can still edit the save if you really want to, but I would prefer an internal change than using a mod or external editing method.  It’s also very tedious because it means sitting at level 1 officers for a really long time.  If you ever want to broadly change fleet comps and remake all the officers, well then it’s even more undesirable.

The latter is why a lot of us would like extra officers we can keep in reserve or a passive (colony?) leveling mechanism.  Giving us the ability to flex fleet comps broadly without having to start all the way over.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2024, 04:53:14 PM by Mishrak »
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Nettle

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Re: Pre-Made Officer Loadouts
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2024, 04:54:01 PM »

It's a possibility, I can see both sides of it and am not 100% set either way. I could e.g. see mentoring unlocking an extra skill pick or two, or some such.

An idea of re-roll button with some currency attached to it (probably SPs?) stroke me here for some reason.
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Alex

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Re: Pre-Made Officer Loadouts
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2024, 05:39:12 PM »

…you didn’t know this worked?  >.> It definitely doesn’t work haha I was just testing you it definitely doesn’t work.

In all seriousness, it’s not perfect because once you pick one the selection choices lock in. Ofc you can still edit the save if you really want to, but I would prefer an internal change than using a mod or external editing method.  It’s also very tedious because it means sitting at level 1 officers for a really long time.  If you ever want to broadly change fleet comps and remake all the officers, well then it’s even more undesirable.

The latter is why a lot of us would like extra officers we can keep in reserve or a passive (colony?) leveling mechanism.  Giving us the ability to flex fleet comps broadly without having to start all the way over.

Haha! Gotcha, on all counts :)

An idea of re-roll button with some currency attached to it (probably SPs?) stroke me here for some reason.

Or heck, maybe even a 1SP/100% bonus XP "pick skill" option. Hmm. (Nothing I'd look at for this release, just thinking about it.)
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