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[Grievous69]

It might be obvious to some but just to point out, it's very unfair to make calculations as if you're going to have 100% uptime on the bonuses. We all know how AI has a mind of its own. So depending on the willingness of destroyers to stick to bigger ships, and the formula for bonus falloffs, it can either be broken good, balanced, or very meh. It's impossible to estimate at this point.

[FooF]

We should probably test EP before coming to conclusions. It looks great on paper but will it hold up?

It might be obvious to some but just to point out, it's very unfair to make calculations as if you're going to have 100% uptime on the bonuses. We all know how AI has a mind of its own. So depending on the willingness of destroyers to stick to bigger ships, and the formula for bonus falloffs, it can either be broken good, balanced, or very meh. It's impossible to estimate at this point.

Don’t you know that the whole point of official forums is to knee-jerk react to everything? What’s this “wait-and-see” approach that is both moderate and reasonable? Only weeping and gnashing of teeth is allowed around here, bub. The nerve of some people… 

To meaningfully contribute, I think EP will be useful but will demand tighter control than normal to shine. My only fear is the meta turning into death balls.

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

If EP ends up not working just because the ships gets out of the 1000su radius, that... will be possibly the worst case scenario.

[Grievous69]

The real joke is that line came from me, someone who very often posts knee jerk feedback after a blog post drops. But yeah just wanted to remind people of the specific mechanics that will be introduced, so far we don't have anything like it.

Fair point about death ball strats, only downside there is ships blocking each other's line of fire.

If EP ends up not working just because the ships gets out of the 1000su radius, that... will be possibly the worst case scenario.

You still get the bonus after 1000su, but diminishing returns and all that. No idea what the max range is to get anything.

[Mishrak]

It might be obvious to some but just to point out, it's very unfair to make calculations as if you're going to have 100% uptime on the bonuses. We all know how AI has a mind of its own. So depending on the willingness of destroyers to stick to bigger ships, and the formula for bonus falloffs, it can either be broken good, balanced, or very meh. It's impossible to estimate at this point.

I think it's actually quite fair to make calculations based on 100% uptime.  When balancing stuff, it's important to consider the extreme case scenarios.  What if someone really min/maxes DO?  What if Safety Overrides is s-modded?  What if a player pilot uses four Hurricanes on a Pegasus?  A staple of game development is always assuming the player will do something if it's possible.  Even at 80 or 90% uptime, the fight will be won before things break down too much with a good fleet composition.

How reasonable is it to have destroyers in range of a capital all the time?  I think it's quite reasonable to develop a playstyle that keeps the destroyers in range of a capital all the time.  Range match + speed match + good officers + some micromanagement.  If you just set and forget, or plan to just field 6 destroyers and one capital in a blob, then it's less of a factor, but I think this does favor an RTS/squadron playstyle.   It's one reason I'm so excited about it.

While we definitely need to "wait and see" how it plays out, the numbers do look crazy and experienced players can use their imagination to get a good for feel for how things will play out.

[Alex]

I have some questions about the missions taken from contacts. It seems that the bounty missions are much easier than those which have similar reward from Intel.

The contact bounties get harder as you do them!

Another interesting thing is the deserters of Lion Gurad seem to have no giga cannons and kinetic blasters. Does it make sense?  I am a fan of these weapons, but without the help of mods, they do not appear in the markets. I tried to gain them by destroying deserters' fleets or by using the nanoforge of Diktat but failed as a result. It seems that I can only gain some by destroying Lion Guard's fleets. I wonder why the exclusive weapons of Diktat are so rare while the exclusive weapons of Persean League (DEM) can be gotten easily?

There's no such thing as a Lion's Guard deserter bounty, is there? It's just Diktat ones, and those don't have access to the shiny, exclusive Lion's Guard toys.

For rarity, it's something that makes sense story-wise. The KB/Gigacannon are also more "special", so I think it makes sense to make them harder to get gameplay-wise, too.

Wait... is that bonus also doubled near a cap and not just a cruiser? I hadn't thought of that. 40% shield would be way too much, I agree.

No, 20% is the near-capital bonus for shields. 40% would be... something, hah.

Open to the possibility that it ends up being overtuned, though! I think a certain amount of complexity in using this may be a mitigating factor, but will definitely keep an eye on it. It'd be interesting to see how it does on something like the Medusa, I didn't spend much time with that. Or, honestly, with massing a bunch of destroyers; I was mostly playing around with more balanced fleet comps here. Using Support Doctrine (and maybe DO) for a swarm of these, with some cheap caps for support, could end up quite scary, hmm. Well, it'll be fun to see, regardless

And, the thing is.. if this playstyle "works" - that'd still be a good thing, right? Unless it just completely dominated in terms of effectiveness, and that's pretty hard to do given the downsides in terms of officer slots, destroyer peak time, and so on. Plus, hopefully it's something that would not be too hard to fine-tune, since there are a bunch of numbers here to adjust.

It might be obvious to some but just to point out, it's very unfair to make calculations as if you're going to have 100% uptime on the bonuses. We all know how AI has a mind of its own. So depending on the willingness of destroyers to stick to bigger ships, and the formula for bonus falloffs, it can either be broken good, balanced, or very meh. It's impossible to estimate at this point.

I think a lot of it will come down to figuring out how to get the most out of it in terms of ship behavior, yeah. Most things generally do.

[Rain]

... It'd be interesting to see how it does on something like the Medusa, I didn't spend much time with that.

The Medusa has long been my favourite destroyer, mostly because the AI feels like it's pretty competent with the Phase Skimmer backed up with Accelerated Shields and don't get themselves killed all the time, especially when there's a bunch of them. Not sure how well that'll play out with Escort Package given the incentive to be close to bigger ships instead of (necessarily) doing their wolf packing thing, but it's high on my list of things to give a try. Of course, best case scenario they got a couple of Auroras or something to be doing their thing in reasonable proximity of... Though with their general (unmodded) availability massing Auroras and Medusas together isn't necessarily the most straightforward of things to do, either.

[Sts678]

The contact bounties get harder as you do them!

Of course, I know this point. I have taken the contact bounties which asked me to destroy a complete Remnants station or a Remnants fleet some of which contain Omega ships (I know this one is very difficult, even without Omega). It also asked me to kill some dangerous bounty hunters who have a few capital ships with s-mod (a little more difficult than hardest normal bounties, but double or triple reward), however, many contact bounties asked me only to destroy a pirate or pather's fleet still with good rewards (higher than those normal bounties ask me to destroy a pirate's fleet). Even in the latter part of a campaign, I think they are still easier than other military contacts' missions because they do not need me to lose the reputation with other factions. Maybe you can add some contact bounties which require players to destroy hostile factions' fleets just as what the current underworld contact bounties are doing.

There's no such thing as a Lion's Guard deserter bounty, is there? It's just Diktat ones, and those don't have access to the shiny, exclusive Lion's Guard toys.

For rarity, it's something that makes sense story-wise. The KB/Gigacannon are also more "special", so I think it makes sense to make them harder to get gameplay-wise, too.

Oh, maybe I get confused because there are Executor class ships and they can also appear in normal Diktat fleets. A new question arose when writing this reply. Can player become a member of Lion Guard and get those exclusive ships and weapons in the future? Now the way to gain Giga Cannon, Kinetic Blaster and LG ships is miserable for those players who want to act as an officer of Lion Guard and use a fleet of Lion Guard style. 

[Thaago]

...

The Medusa has long been my favourite destroyer, mostly because the AI feels like it's pretty competent with the Phase Skimmer backed up with Accelerated Shields and don't get themselves killed all the time, especially when there's a bunch of them. Not sure how well that'll play out with Escort Package given the incentive to be close to bigger ships instead of (necessarily) doing their wolf packing thing, but it's high on my list of things to give a try. Of course, best case scenario they got a couple of Auroras or something to be doing their thing in reasonable proximity of... Though with their general (unmodded) availability massing Auroras and Medusas together isn't necessarily the most straightforward of things to do, either.

I need to play more with Medusas because I think their ceiling is quite high! Like you said the AI does well with phase skimmer and that system gets a massive boost with Systems Expertise. I like getting them up to 360 shields to compensate for the low armor - I think Hiruma Kai has a build that does that and SO with a heavy blaster? In any case a high tech ship that can mount kinetics while having high mobility is a nice combo!

[Draba]

Related to enemies not using escort package:
I feel by the time the player fleet reaches 150-200 DP there are no "normal" enemies that can challenge it.
Player has smods and (probably) a coherent setup with no loadout limitations beyond availability, and now another exclusive boost on top.
Having extra options for more even fights would be nice for variety.

Current state feels like a "power fantasy" RPG, is that the goal?
Are there plans for throwing stronger individual fleets at the player?

[Grievous69]

Keep in mind forum users are mostly veteran mix maxers which know the game inside out. Don't think this place is a reflection of the general game's difficulty. I truly believe faction bounties can still be a challenge for an average player.

I'd actually like Escort Package to be used in npc fleets, but be careful about any talk of raising the difficulty of normal enemies.

[Draba]

Keep in mind forum users are mostly veteran mix maxers which know the game inside out. Don't think this place is a reflection of the general game's difficulty. I truly believe faction bounties can still be a challenge for an average player.

I'd actually like Escort Package to be used in npc fleets, but be careful about any talk of raising the difficulty of normal enemies.

Having powerful fleets to fight doesn't necessarily mean making the "standard" progression harder.
Just adding another tier for bounties would already be nice. Merging 2 expedition fleets into 1 strong one also works without going over the top, the station can be used as a crutch for fighting it anyway.

[Grievous69]

We already had huge fleet fights and it seems Alex wants to avoid that. Since fighting a 800 DP fleet isn't really a challenge, more of a hassle and DPS check.

[Draba]

We already had huge fleet fights and it seems Alex wants to avoid that. Since fighting a 800 DP fleet isn't really a challenge, more of a hassle and DPS check.

By "more even fights" I meant battles where the enemy has better quality ships (smods, better loadouts, ...), so it doesn't have to massively outnumber you to be a threat.
Same for stronger bounties and merging expedition fleets.

[Dadada]

Yeah, optional non unique bounties etc. with S-modded ships or stronger setups might be interesting and more challenging, heck, maybe a unique s-mod Ordo bounty on top...