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[Gris]

Good day Alex and Devs can you atleast give the Salvaging skill In the industry tree some little bit of love by giving an increased 5% chance to find Rare items like colony items, rare blueprints etc.( to ease a bit of pain of finding a pristine nanoforge)? and will the next update answer who really the player is and the continuation of the storyline? is he/she really even a human? Is the update almost finished? Thank you.

[intrinsic_parity]

My thoughts:
Before commenting on individual changes, this post leaves me a bit concerned about power creep. Feels like base unofficered ships are becoming more and more just pure fodder. Which also makes the early game balance tricker. Feels like you kind of have to run support doctrine for unofficered ships to even be useful unless they are missile spam boats or something.

Thoughts on individual changes:
Ballistic mastery seems really good with that bonus. Feels like it's on the strong side, but hopefully not too crazy.

Target analysis: I really can't see ever picking an elite skill that says do a little extra damage to frigates and destroyers. Those ships already have low HP, and die very quickly, so spending an elite skill to make you better at something that is already easy seems a bit of a waste. I think maybe something like just an extra 5% damage to all ships could work for elite. It's boring but way more appealing to me. You could also do something fancy like 5% or 10% damage to ships the same class or larger than your current ship as the elite skill, the idea being to make it a 'punch up' kind of elite skill to further enable frigates and destroyers.

Systems expertise giving damage reduction, is ... interesting? It's definitely good, just feels a bit strange. I will certainly be taking it more regularly though. Some high tech ships will be getting real tanky

Helmsmanship and combat endurance might be better now, but I'm not sure they've kept up with the other elite skill buffs. Kinda curious to see how impactful this actually feels though.

An idea for damage control/impact mitigation/field modulation:
Instead of bonus damage (which I think feels very out of place on a defensive skill), what if they reduced damage from certain damage types. For instance, impact mitigation is 5 or 10% less damage from HE type weapons, field modulation is less damage from kinetics, damage control is less energy/frag damage, or something like that? Feels a bit more thematic to me, although maybe not straightforward to implement?

Ordinance expertise nerf is leaving me with mixed feelings. I totally get that it was a bit too strong, but I really love how it opens up new builds that aren't otherwise feasible, and it's kinda sad to see that neutered. I almost wish it was just a tier 5 skill to justify its old power level. Not sure how that could happen though.

I think EWM could really just use adjustments to the range penalties. Partially because pretty much every ship has range bonuses (between ITU and skills), so while 600 range might be reasonable in terms of the base range of weapons, it's not really cutting it when your opponent is a capital ship with (60% ITU + 15% GI) bonus range on 900 range weapons. You have to get inside their PD range to get the full bonus. Alternatively, you could flip the elite/base effects (and rebalance numbers). Reduced flux cost is much more universally useful, while the bonus damage is only situationally good on certain ships, so it kinda makes sense that the universally useful effect would be the base effect. Maybe slightly buff it to 15% flux reduction, and nerf the damage effect a bit to be in line with other elite effects.
Ninja Edit: I forget the exact mechanism also, but I think have two sources of bonus reduction (range and flux level) really hurts EWM too. Most of the time you don't want to have high flux on the ships that can use EWM because they need capacity to tank damage, so you end up with half or less of the bonus from that, plus the range limit, meaning you are probably getting barely anything out of it most of the time. Especially the AI that loves to hang around max weapon range.

I think elite PD is really cool, but I don't like the base skill much at all. Not really sure how I would buff it though, maybe some buff to frag damage to make those weapons have more utility vs ships or something?

I also think elite missile spec may still need some adjustment, but that might be a symptom of other problems (the amount of extra missile ammo you can get, and the ease that officers can get tier 5 combat skills). Maybe you could split the bonus ammo from elite missile spec (50% base, +50% elite), and then move one of the elite effects to the base skill, or add something else to the base skill. The idea being to make the base skill a little worse for officers, but keep the elite skills strong for the player who will almost certainly make it elite. It would also be cool to see some bonus for missile weapons that use charges instead of ammo, since I think the ROF and ammo bonuses don't really matter much for them.

I'm not 100% sold on the ECM changes. I always though it would be nice to have a total pool of range penalties, and then divide that between the two fleet based on the ratio of ECM points, so if the total range penalty pool is 20% and one side has 50 ECM and the other has 10, then the side with 10 gets 50/(10+50)*20% = 16.6% reduce range and the side with 50 ECM gets 10/(10 + 50)*20 = 3.33% reduced range. That way there is always a benefit to ECM no matter what.

Cybernetic Augmentation changes feel a bit odd to me. In the past, it wasn't strong enough because getting the full benefit required too much of a SP investment, so the solution is to reduce the full benefit? I get that the elite skill buff will make it stronger, but the bonus damage isn't THAT inspiring either, and IDK if it's really tier 5 worthy. But maybe I am underestimating it.

I really like moving neural integrator down a tier, it has a much more clear use case now. Will be interesting to try that combo. I'm curious, does the increased DP from the hull mod count against the automated ships cap?

Hull restorations problem is just all the non-combat skills you have to take to get it. Polarized armor is a bit niche, so if you're not flying a ship that wants that, you're basically taking 3 non-combat skills, just to get it, which makes it clearly much worse than pure combat tier 5s. Might be interesting to try and stack the new DP reductions with support doctrine though, that seems like it could get kinda silly in a fun way.

The support doctrine changes are also pretty interesting. ordnance expertise is a quite strong skill, and I am very interested to see how effective this can be.

[Wyvern]

One counter-point, re: what you're saying about a correct action becoming incorrect when you acquire the skill: isn't this *good*, actually? Doesn't that mean that the skill's elite effect succeeds in changing up the mechanics? I mean, there's other arguments you can make, for sure, but I feel like that one isn't necessarily convincing to me.

In this particular context? No, I don't think it is good. A change in mechanics for a qualitative benefit - something like the old keep-shields-up-at-zero-flux bonus - is good and interesting. A change in mechanics for a small quantitative benefit - remember to not hit this button, get where you were going a second or two faster - is not; what's the point of the mechanics change in that context, when you could've gotten the same result with, oh, +10 to zero-flux speed-boost? All it accomplishes, for me, is an occasional "Dang it, I shouldn't have hit that button" which is annoying, but not actually really meaningful, and definitely not interesting.

Honestly? The main reason I didn't give that a try is because it's way more involved; this is all in the context of "things I can do real fast that are unlikely to break". If I start touching the AI, adding new mechanics (such as that shield upkeep reduction), etc, that kinda goes out the window.

I'm not convinced it's the way to go, necessarily, but it IS an interesting idea.

...That's fair, actually. Though really, the AI change it needs (some sort of tag for "keep shields up if you're at zero flux and doing so won't lose your zero flux boost") is one that the game ought to have anyway, because SO ships should do the same thing. Still, in the absence of that tag existing, I can see not wanting to go this particular route.

(Though, okay, we didn't have that tag back when the ability to keep shields up on approach was the elite effect, so I guess there's also an argument to be made for "just bring that back and if the AI doesn't use it right, oh well".)


Edit: Though, hm. We do have a tag for "Just keep your shield on all the time no matter what". I bet I can mod in a hullmod that does both the shield upkeep cost reduction and the relevant AI change, by turning that always-shield tag on when appropriate. I'll give that a shot tomorrow.

[Propietario]

I would really prefer to have a big overhaul of the skill system, as it currently forces player to optimize fun out of the game.
Generally speaking player want to interact with every aspect of the game, pilot flagship, lead the fleet, explore and finance all of this. They are not different playstyles to pick one or two.

[Grievous69]

Oh boy am I mixed on this one.

Many have already voiced their opinions on things I'm not too happy about or just confused, so I'll start with parts that weren't mentioned yet.

I still have zero clue why Containment Procedures needed a nerf even with that explanation. You mean to tell me a tier 3 industry skill that's pure QoL was too strong? Come on now there's like 20 ways to break the game, it's not like everything crumbles together if someone dislikes buying fuel non stop. Why hurt the players who just want to chill and explore. To me this feels entirely pointless.

DP increase on Automated ships with Neural Integrator: Can we stop overbalancing this playstyle already please? You have to jump through a dozen hoops just to pilot one ship AND then you give it an OP nerf AND DP nerf. Why? You could save all those precious points and fly Zigg, Afflictor, Gryphon bunch of other strong player ships instead, and you won't be limited by arbitrary nerfs. And now it requires, not 2 tech skills, but 3... This went too far even before, now it's in clown teritory. I seriously urge you reconsider this approach as you're not balacing a competitive MOBA where every single number has to be perfect. Starsector is a single player sandbox game, and as I said already, there's numerous ways to break the game. Let people have fun in Radiants and Novas. You went on a tangent how piloted ships should feel genuinely powerful based on skill and then contradicted yourself with this. Oh boy I can't wait to pilot a 72 DP Radiant /s.

And I'm surprised how many elite effects just have random bonuses now, is no one else scared of upcoming Ordos? I honestly hope AI cores won't have full elite skills because almost everything has either a damage buff or damage mitigation buff now. I'm fine with a challenge but it's not fun fighting bullet sponges with 10 different buffs to damage.

Ordnance Expertise nerf was kinda expected, but I'm also sad same like intrinsic_parity because that allowed for some cool builds.

It's truly weird how many skills got changed because their bonuses were too complicated or just unfitting, and then there's Energy Weapon Mastery being unchanged because screw everything not a high tech frigate and Medusa.

Also not a fan of "here's a defensive skill, but if you order right now you get a nice damage bonus for some reason". You tried to explain it with logic, but I just can't see it. If I'm going out of my way to make a ship more tanky, the last thing I want is a bonus that has nothing to do with that.

Systems Expertise went from "bunch of boring buffs to things you don't care about" to "a single boring buff you don't care about". Doesn't fit the theme of the skill at all.

Same with Cybernetic Augmentation, wild that that's now a tier 5 skill. Maybe it is great, but oh boy another generic boring buff.

Only things I really am content with are changes to ECM and Support Doctrine buff (never used it before, now I might try it). I feel pretty neutral about Hull Restoration, it's definitely more interesting, I just share the sentiment of having to go through a QoL tree just to get a neat bonus. We'll see how potent it will be.

Sorry I was so overwhelming negative. This whole blog post to me feels like when devs aren't sure what to do next, and so they try reinventing the wheel while thinking they'll make 2 steps forwards, when in reality it's 2 steps sideways. Many little changes but game will function the same pretty much.

P.S. Can't believe it's wasn't an SO rework blog post, you're killing me man.

EDIT: To further explain my passionate part about piloting Automated ships. It's a general pet peeve of mine when the game lets you experience a super cool unique playstyle that's only possible through a set of specific triggers/sacrifices, and then you realize instead of getting a brand new toy, you've been given a toy that can't leave one room, you can play with it only at certain parts of the day, and it drains your bank account every day. Wild analogy I know but I wanted to ilustrate how some games make those limitations truly absurd. At times like that, it makes me wonder what was even the point of introducing a brand new cool thing if it's going to be so limited it barely feels worth it all those sacrifices.

It's like when shooter or rpgs give you a cool weapon but there's a caveat where you can only use it against a specific enemy, or it has only one charge and then it's gone, that's just missed opportunities to me. Of course I'm still talking about single player games where it's a shame to tone down the fun of fun playstyles.

[Nimiety]

Oh boy I can't wait to fight remnant stacked with even more satanic +damage done and -damage taken modifiers, they weren't full of those already. At least the robots haven't figured out augmentations, I guess, +6/-6 to all of them on top would have been great fun. Most of em will be doing +15% damage done, -10% damage taken or so over the current patch, right?

Shame to see the quirkier elite effects swapped for flat damage modifiers. I thought old syatems expert and damage control were both great to take while learning how to fly. Insurance against *** up shield flickering or forgetting to check if an enemy ship is carrying reapers, that kinda thing.

Carrier officers on suicide watch as they are once again left with pd mastery and nothing else to express their fighter/bomber command experience for the 3rd patch in a row :p Not even a liiiitle LPC optimization bonus off of systems expert or anything? No? Poor bastards. Keep them away from the CIC pistols cabinet!

[warlord]

A couple of (I think) interesting suggestions: instead of making CA give +-1% damage per elite skill, why not make it something like, increase effect of elite skills by 25%. I think it both sounds a bit better and also is more interesting. And why not add a thing where each S-mod reduces the deployment cost of each ship by 5%. The main function being, that some ships just don't really need S-mods (I'm relatively new so might just be wrong about that). they already have all the weapons I could hope for max vents and capacitors and all the hullmods I need to make them work. Only things I can think of is to add hardened shields if it doesn't already have it and efficiency overhaul and some sort of utility upgrade, insulated engine assembly or something like that. They make ships better for sure, but for me don't really justify the SP cost, so I just don't do them until I'm up to my eyeballs in SP. It'd be nice if there's some other benefit to always max out s-mods making you more willing to risk SP on ships that might not be too good. And so I thought reduced DP cost. IDK which industry skill should get it tho. I think it might be worth it on the last industry skill (forget the name). The one that gives you reduced deployment cost for d-mods. I never take that cause I'm always going to end up with pristine fleets anyway. I love bounty hunting so I'm pretty much always flush on cash. I'm also very selective about the ships I add to my fleet so I don't recover enemy ships too often unless it's a special ship or one that I'm looking for. I remember the name of that skill being something along the lines of I drive junk ships. maybe it can be changed to I drive polished turds instead (lol). So S-modded and d-modded to all hell.

[Histidine]

Not sure how I feel about "yeah a bunch of defensive skills get offensive bonuses now" either.

DP increase on Automated ships with Neural Integrator: Can we stop overbalancing this playstyle already please? You have to jump through a dozen hoops just to pilot one ship AND then you give it an OP nerf AND DP nerf. Why? You could save all those precious points and fly Zigg, Afflictor, Gryphon bunch of other strong player ships instead, and you won't be limited by arbitrary nerfs. And now it requires, not 2 tech skills, but 3... This went too far even before, now it's in clown teritory. I seriously urge you reconsider this approach as you're not balacing a competitive MOBA where every single number has to be perfect. Starsector is a single player sandbox game, and as I said already, there's numerous ways to break the game. Let people have fun in Radiants and Novas. You went on a tangent how piloted ships should feel genuinely powerful based on skill and then contradicted yourself with this. Oh boy I can't wait to pilot a 72 DP Radiant /s.

I think you misread the blog post? Neural Integrator is getting an OP cut and Cybernetic Augmentation won't (for now) be needed for it (note the screenshot); so the net effect is that player-piloted Radiant will be 20% more costly to deploy but stronger (due to lower OP tax) and require less Tech skill points to unlock (as it only needs one capstone instead of both). In fact I suspect letting a mere alpha core drive the Radiant will now be considered passé.

[Hadza]

The general idea should still be “you can afford to lose ships”; that’s the overall flavor of Industry.

Which is also its greatest flaw. I can always buy more ships. I can't buy more levels.

[Grievous69]

Although you're right that OP cost doesn't exist anymore. I still stand by my post regardless.

Ok apparently even this isn't correct. From Twitter

Spoiler

[close]

I hate everything again.

EDIT: *** I edited this post instead of adding a new comment. Don't even remember what it was written here but oh well.

[Ripmorld]

To me , the CR buffs of hull restoration have been quite decently is every stage of the game , from midgame ( when you unlock the skill ) it is basically a 10% CR buff , decent for non officered ships , to late game when Crew training is being diluted to 7% buff. And remember , in vanilla , there isn't many choice to buff a ships CR , it was one of the 3 skills that are able to provide any CR bonus to your ships.
Also if you are running automated ships this CR buff can be also extremely valuable to push ships past the 40% CR baseline for malfunction risks.
It also have decent synergy with best of the best , where you get an extra 5% CR for the extra s mod.
It was the only reason to keep hull restoration lategame and arguably a very good reason. It is a shame to see it being taken away seemly without much consideration being put into it.

I am not saying the new abilities are bad , or that they are not able to compensate for the loss. They are good , as a matter of fact they help with automated ships CR issue a lot due to the dp cost reduction (the -10% dp or -5 dp scales with the cores you put into a ship , so say if you have a radiant costing 55 dp , it would only account for 220 instead of 240 for automated ship skill). But it is definitely different from the original flat bonus given.

[Grievous69]

I'm pretty sure Alex just wanted to get rid of situations where ships have more than 100% CR which does nothing mechanically, and also isn't even shown in the UI I think.

[Histidine]

I think you misread the blog post? Neural Integrator is getting an OP cut and Cybernetic Augmentation won't (for now) be needed for it (note the screenshot); so the net effect is that player-piloted Radiant will be 20% more costly to deploy but stronger (due to lower OP tax) and require less Tech skill points to unlock (as it only needs one capstone instead of both). In fact I suspect letting a mere alpha core drive the Radiant will now be considered passé.

Well explain this part then

The way you’re able to pilot an automated ship is with the “Neural Integrator” hullmod. So if we say that it’s *not* ok, an easy solution is to make this hullmod be unlocked by Cybernetic Augmentation – the newly-minted top-tier tech skill – instead. It fits well enough thematically.

Alex was considering moving the NI hullmod to CA skill, but instead went with the OP+DP changes. The hullmod move might still get done later, but for now we're trying the 'mostly buffed' way.

To do that, though, you have to get both top-tier tech skills – Automated Ships (which lets you have those in your fleet in the first place) and Neural Link. This means a heavy skill investment in tech, leaving less points for personal-combat skills, so, there’s a tradeoff.

But if you can pick up Neural Link and Automated Ships right off the bat – without an extra investment in tech – this tradeoff is no longer there, and the balance shifts. The question is, is that ok?
[...]
With that change, I think it’s ok to have the option to manually pilot an automated ship be more readily available, without a full tech skill point investment. At least, that seems worth experimenting with – and the option to move the NI unlock up a tier is always there.

(I forget if hullmod unlocks from skills are unlearned when respeccing out of the skill; if not, everyone will just cheese that should it happen)

[ExtraRaven]

Hey Alex, really great changes! I like piloting my ships so these little buffs should be fun to use, and the ECM changes are well thought out and might make that system more fun to interact with than before.

One thing though, you mentioned enemy fleets having fleet skills in the EW section, I had no idea they could even have those. I asked around and apparently they've been in since 0.9.1, but they're not displayed in game in any way... I think they should be, no?

[Asherogar]

I'll be honest, while I like the changes to some individual skills and reasoning behind it, I'm very iffy on a slew of +% dmg dealt and -% dmg taken added all over the place. Not because it's boring, I would rather take small and boring bonus over a flowery one with no practical use ("Triple the radius and dmg from your ship explosion". Unless...). You said it yourself, 5% doesn't sound much, but can easily add-up. What it also does is snowballs out of control, because dmg in Starsector is not just dmg, it affects flux efficiency too and armor calculation, meaning in roundabout way it increases your survivability too. I still remember chewing throught armor with kinetic weapons, because old Target Analysis was beyond broken.

Making your flagship beyond OP is not even the worst part. I prefer making my flagship strong and skills that give unique effects, like dissipating some hard flux with shields up, or increasing projectile speed rather than unconditional effect like "You take 10% less dmg". The bigger problem is that all those +/-% bonuses work on enemies too. And [REDACTED] are a massive statsticks, meaning any % bonuses on them work miles better. Radiant with 95% dmg resistance on shields, full array of energy weapons with better flux efficiency than your kinetics, flux stats enough to make firing all it's weaponry with shields up flux neutral and on top of it mobility to dance around anything that can attempt to fight it. Sounds like a definition of anti-fun.