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Author Topic: Pure(ish) Luddic run  (Read 1256 times)

woodsmoke

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Pure(ish) Luddic run
« on: July 16, 2023, 10:39:30 PM »

As per the title, I'm playing a campaign in which I'm trying to stick more or less exclusively to Luddic ships and weapons. The former isn't proving particularly difficult; eradicator + venture seems to make for a pretty effective hammer + anvil fleet, to the point I struggle to figure out where manticores fit in and I've all but given up on frigates, which is certainly a change from the wolfpack fleet I ran in my last game. I haven't gotten to play with the retribution or invictus yet but I'm very much looking forward to both.

What I need help with is weapons and loadouts. Weapon selection for LC seems really limited; near as I can tell their offensive kinetic weaponry (beyond the stuff available on open markets) effectively begins and ends with autocannons, which is... not ideal in a sector where railguns, needlers and HVDs exist. Explosives ain't much better; missile selection seems decent enough but, again, no heavy mauler or light/heavy assault gun (and probably other goodies I'm forgetting). I've been making do with heavy mortars but I know anything more threatening than a pirate junker fleet is going to eat me for breakfast with the loadouts I have.

The thought has occurred I'm just playing them wrong. Given the weapon selection available it kinda' seems like they're built for an aggressive, overwhelming force style of combat: come in hard with kinetics, overload target, launch missiles and call it a day. Except, at least in the case of eradicator (non P, obviously) and venture, they really don't have the mobility to make that happen against most ships.

So yeah. Please to share your best builds for LC ships, perhaps keeping to LC weaponry where reasonable but I'm not strictly married to that idea.
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Pure(ish) Luddic run
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2023, 10:59:09 PM »

Venture is a joke but as for Eradicator, even if fit with all 700-range weapons(which it seems to have been designed around anyway) once you slap DTC on it the range goes beyond 1000 which is good enough. You can also use Moras in a fighter spam fleet.
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CapnHector

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Re: Pure(ish) Luddic run
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2023, 12:27:37 AM »

According to luddic_church.faction here are your weapon options in-faction.

Spoiler
   "knownWeapons":{
      "tags":["luddic_church"],
      "weapons":[
         "lightmg",
         "lightdualmg",
         "lightmortar",
         "vulcan",
         "lightac",
         "lightdualac",
         
         "shredder",
         "heavymortar",
         "flak",
         "arbalest",
         
         "mark9",
         "hellbore",
         "devastator",
         
         "hammer",
         "hammer_single",
         "swarmer",
         "annihilator",
         "harpoon",
         "harpoon_single",
         "breach",
         "sabot",
         "sabot_single",
         
         "jackhammer",
         "harpoonpod",
         "sabotpod",
         "breachpod",
         "salamanderpod",
         "annihilatorpod",
         "pilum",
         
         "pilum_large",
         "hurricane",
         "hammerrack",
         
         "mininglaser",
         "miningblaster",
      ],
[close]

Now the good news is the bigger LC ships are very strong and these weapons are in fact quite strong. Light dual AC is arguably the best kinetic in the game.

I made some strong builds for Retribution (AI control) and Invictus, you can find them here:
Spoiler


[close]

Retribution is in fact entirely LC tech, up to the fighters which should be swapped to Broadsword which the LC does know if you want to keep it. The Invictus has Gauss which should be swapped to 2x Mark IX 2x Devastator and you could install Pilum Catapults with the spare OP.

I tried messing around with the Eradicator a little and it seems just filling all the slots except the rear with Light Dual AC and giving it S-modded IPDAI and Elite PD on the officer as well as 5x Breach linked with the LDAC, it seems like it would beat sim Strike Radiant because it can defend against its 4x Typhoon just fine and also give it enough flux to cause it to vent which is when it gets peppered with breaches, but for some reason this build instead of dropping its shields and continuing the assault keeps them up, overloading and dying to Reapers as a result. I wonder if the AI is bugged somehow. However it would probably be a monster against human fleets and Breaches are ample enough to last through even a larger fleet combat.

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BaBosa

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Re: Pure(ish) Luddic run
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2023, 01:39:06 AM »

Low tech frigates in general are a lost cause beyond early game especially without elite ballistic weapons.
Invictus is really really good especially in player hands for maximum venting and focusing your battery on big targets. It doesn't matter that it is slow when it can have 2025 range.
Retribution should help you deal with the fast movers and jumping on weakened targets.

When you say luddic run, does that include luddic path ships? The venture mkII has the speed you need to charge in and then they can face tank damage.
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Igncom1

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Re: Pure(ish) Luddic run
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2023, 01:48:22 AM »

I've done a luddite game where every ship that can fit an extra fighter bay gets one. You end up with hilarious swarms of fighters.

As for the frigates I just accepted that most of them will die in battle and to just not worry about it, went for derelict operations and rolled with my fleet of garbage.
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Nimiety

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Re: Pure(ish) Luddic run
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2023, 04:22:35 AM »

If you look at luddic church fleets you'll see they used converted hangars on just about everything
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Igncom1

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Re: Pure(ish) Luddic run
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2023, 04:43:41 AM »

It's really nice, especially with proper carriers in support.

As just the one isn't really worth doing on it's own. But the more ships that have one just turns thing up to eleven!
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Aeson

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Re: Pure(ish) Luddic run
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2023, 02:43:21 PM »

Except, at least in the case of eradicator (non P, obviously) and venture, they really don't have the mobility to make that happen against most ships.
I realize it's not exactly in vogue right now and that it's more of a Luddic Path than a Luddic Church build, but Safety Overrides will solve a lot of mobility issues for the Eradicator, and if you want to stick to Luddic Church weapons Thumpers, while not my first choice (I'd prefer Assault Chainguns, or maybe a mix of Assault Chainguns and HMGs, for an SO Eradicator build), have the raw DPS - especially in combination with Accelerated Ammo Feeder - to be a serious threat to many ships despite dealing Fragmentation damage; throw on your choice of missiles and some LDACs or LDMGs in at least the forward-facing small mounts (you might want to find the OP or a story point for Ballistic Rangefinder if you go with LDMGs), and you'll have a reasonably fast, hard-hitting hammer that can rip through most small ships, rapidly push many larger ships to the edge of their flux capacity, and throw enough missiles down range to mess a battleship up.

Another potential option for solving mobility issues is to load up your missile slots with Salamanders. It's probably not ideal since it's a lot of burst damage to give up and the small Salamanders are fairly expensive in OP as small missiles go (then again, they also don't benefit from Missile Autoloader or Expanded Missile Racks, and small Salamanders will usually be cheaper than other small missiles plus either of those hull mods), but on the other hand an Eradicator probably doesn't really need additional burst damage while punching down even if it is only armed with mortars and autocannons and you probably don't need to use every missile slot on every Eradicator for Salamanders to gain a mobility advantage.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2023, 02:46:28 PM by Aeson »
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woodsmoke

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Re: Pure(ish) Luddic run
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2023, 09:17:06 PM »

Venture is a joke

It's not a top-of-the-line warship but it's tanky as hell and seems to act as a pretty solid anvil to the hammer of my eradicators. Even with the pretty subpar loadouts I've been using up to now I've won a lot of fights I really shouldn't have building my fleet around the anchor of a couple ventures built for defense and support.

According to luddic_church.faction here are your weapon options in-faction. (snip)

That's a lot more in-depth than I generally get with my theorycrafting but damned good information all the same. Thank you sir!

Low tech frigates in general are a lost cause beyond early game especially without elite ballistic weapons.

When you say luddic run, does that include luddic path ships? The venture mkII has the speed you need to charge in and then they can face tank damage.

Right. I'll probably just clear the frigates out of my fleet once I have bigger ships with which to replace them, then.

I toyed with picking up some Pather ships early on but decided I want to stick with just Church hulls this time 'round. I'll embrace my inner space terrorist in a future run.

If you look at luddic church fleets you'll see they used converted hangars on just about everything

Good to know that's still part of faction doctrine for them. I know it was before the last update but wasn't sure if the new ships had changed that. Time to pick up those fighter/carrier leadership skills I've been debating.

I realize it's not exactly in vogue right now and that it's more of a Luddic Path than a Luddic Church build, but Safety Overrides will solve a lot of mobility issues for the Eradicator
I'm not generally a huge fan of SO builds. I don't like the range and PPT reductions and, frankly, I just don't generally play aggressively enough to make that work for me. Which isn't to say they can't be damned effective, just not my style.

Quote from: Aeson
Another potential option for solving mobility issues is to load up your missile slots with Salamanders. It's probably not ideal since it's a lot of burst damage to give up and the small Salamanders are fairly expensive in OP as small missiles go (then again, they also don't benefit from Missile Autoloader or Expanded Missile Racks, and small Salamanders will usually be cheaper than other small missiles plus either of those hull mods), but on the other hand an Eradicator probably doesn't really need additional burst damage while punching down even if it is only armed with mortars and autocannons and you probably don't need to use every missile slot on every Eradicator for Salamanders to gain a mobility advantage.

That may well be worth looking into. I generally have a fair few salamanders in play already as that's what I load my ventures with (as noted above, I build 'em for defense and support anchorage), so I've been building my eradicators for ballistic damage + missile finishers once the enemy ship is overloaded. Whole point o' posting this thread was to get ideas and shake things up, though.

Thanks for the feedback, folks. Hopefully I can use it to good effect.
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Aeson

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Re: Pure(ish) Luddic run
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2023, 10:44:46 PM »

I realize it's not exactly in vogue right now and that it's more of a Luddic Path than a Luddic Church build, but Safety Overrides will solve a lot of mobility issues for the Eradicator
I'm not generally a huge fan of SO builds. I don't like the range and PPT reductions and, frankly, I just don't generally play aggressively enough to make that work for me. Which isn't to say they can't be damned effective, just not my style.
Fair enough; I have mixed feelings about SO, myself.

Quote from: Aeson
Another potential option for solving mobility issues is to load up your missile slots with Salamanders. It's probably not ideal since it's a lot of burst damage to give up and the small Salamanders are fairly expensive in OP as small missiles go (then again, they also don't benefit from Missile Autoloader or Expanded Missile Racks, and small Salamanders will usually be cheaper than other small missiles plus either of those hull mods), but on the other hand an Eradicator probably doesn't really need additional burst damage while punching down even if it is only armed with mortars and autocannons and you probably don't need to use every missile slot on every Eradicator for Salamanders to gain a mobility advantage.

That may well be worth looking into. I generally have a fair few salamanders in play already as that's what I load my ventures with (as noted above, I build 'em for defense and support anchorage), so I've been building my eradicators for ballistic damage + missile finishers once the enemy ship is overloaded. Whole point o' posting this thread was to get ideas and shake things up, though.
Be aware that that's just a thought, not something I've actually tried, so I can't speak to how well it'll actually work in practice.
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BaBosa

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Re: Pure(ish) Luddic run
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2023, 10:56:33 PM »

What cruisers and capitals does the luddic church have? Pretty sure they have onslaughts which are always solid choices. Mark9, autocannons with BRF, annihilators, and smod expanded magazines for TPCs with flux and defensive hullmods is a basic build.
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CapnHector

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Re: Pure(ish) Luddic run
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2023, 11:53:17 PM »

Everybody has their own style and they may work great, but I'd be very careful about sacrificing damage for Salamanders or range for SO. I have not had success with these approaches, although admittedly haven't tried spamming all SO lowtech ships other than Rampart (which was bad; the ships lose their ability to coordinate and focus fire which they have without SO) but in general at least Eradicator and Rampart seem to significantly underperform in a fleet if you SO them.

IMO lowtech ships do best when you keep it simple, keep the missile burst/finisher approach rather than make it complicated, and go for long range so your ships can focus fire and can fire on the enemy without needing to armor tank in return. Converted hangar is also great when you have surplus OP. For example just going by this method I could get an Enforcer monofleet to take out 3 Ordos relatively cleanly.

video
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Now needless to say if a fleet can take out 3 Ordos, then probably half of it could take on all the fleets you actually encounter during normal gameplay.
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Aeson

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Re: Pure(ish) Luddic run
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2023, 11:59:34 PM »

What cruisers and capitals does the luddic church have? Pretty sure they have onslaughts which are always solid choices. Mark9, autocannons with BRF, annihilators, and smod expanded magazines for TPCs with flux and defensive hullmods is a basic build.
According to the known ships list in luddic_church.faction: Eradicator, Mora, Retribution, and Invictus for dedicated combatants; Venture for hybrids; Starliner, Colossus, Atlas, and Prometheus for noncombatants.
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BaBosa

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Re: Pure(ish) Luddic run
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2023, 12:30:43 AM »

What cruisers and capitals does the luddic church have? Pretty sure they have onslaughts which are always solid choices. Mark9, autocannons with BRF, annihilators, and smod expanded magazines for TPCs with flux and defensive hullmods is a basic build.
According to the known ships list in luddic_church.faction: Eradicator, Mora, Retribution, and Invictus for dedicated combatants; Venture for hybrids; Starliner, Colossus, Atlas, and Prometheus for noncombatants.
Ahh that’s right, Alex removed onslaughts from them to be more unique.

A player controlled Invictus with 2x mark9s, hellbore and devastator hardpoints. Devastators back turrets and mark9s on front and middle turrets with hurricanes or Pluims and broadswords? With AWM, bulkheads and blast doors would be a decent build. Moras are also good bricks with fighters to add to the converted hangers.
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woodsmoke

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Re: Pure(ish) Luddic run
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2023, 09:01:31 PM »

IMO lowtech ships do best when you keep it simple, keep the missile burst/finisher approach rather than make it complicated, and go for long range so your ships can focus fire and can fire on the enemy without needing to armor tank in return. Converted hangar is also great when you have surplus OP.

Yeah, on further testing I think I'm going to stick with mixing salamanders and pilums on my carriers and keeping warship missile slots stocked with finishers. Maybe I'm just using them wrong (or not spamming them enough) or maybe they work better with midline/high tech hulls/fleets, but support warheads like that never seem to work as well for me as they do for the AI. Better to focus on maximizing fundamentals.
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