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[Doctorhealsgood]

They don't generally speaking; the only thing that comes to mind if it flamed out just then.

It sorta looked like it exploded so it didn't looked like a flameout. It specifically hitted the shield from the inside (as in it hitting the part that faces the ship instead of the part that faces the projectiles) so maybe that affected things?
Or maybe i am imagining things.

[Brainwright]

I think he meant if the Dominator was flamed out.

[Clockwork Owl]

Missile flameout causes the projectile to become neutral and a friendly fire hazard.

Shouldn't the Dragonfire OP be in line with other torpedoes, however, if we're paying the premium with low ammo count? Total damage inflicted is also a factor when choosing missiles, though I will note that Dragonfire has an unrivalled armor hit strength.

On that note - does Dragonfire bypass elite Damage Control?

[Doctorhealsgood]

Missile flameout causes the projectile to become neutral and a friendly fire hazard.

Shouldn't the Dragonfire OP be in line with other torpedoes, however, if we're paying the premium with low ammo count? Total damage inflicted is also a factor when choosing missiles, though I will note that Dragonfire has an unrivalled armor hit strength.

On that note - does Dragonfire bypass elite Damage Control?

I think dragonfire damage is not all at once so it should partially bypass it

[BigBrainEnergy]

Total damage inflicted is also a factor when choosing missiles, though I will note that Dragonfire has an unrivalled armor hit strength.

I don't know about that, it's pretty hard to beat the reaper at 8000. What is the hit strength of the dragonfire?

[BaBosa]

Total damage inflicted is also a factor when choosing missiles, though I will note that Dragonfire has an unrivalled armor hit strength.

I don't know about that, it's pretty hard to beat the reaper at 8000. What is the hit strength of the dragonfire?

4000 so half of a reaper, making it third best after the large omega missile.

[Grievous69]

The question was specifically about hit strength, we all know Reaper deals 8000 damage (since it's HE), but Dragonfire doesn't give away exact numbers, just that it deals 4000 energy damage in a short amount of time. Is that time long enough to dilute the 4k energy burst is the question here.

[CapnHector]

The dragon_payload weapon has a DPS of 8000 in weapons.csv so if it works like other beams it will have a hit strength of 4000 vs armor.

So assuming it's 5 beam ticks at 8000 DPS, we'd get that a Reaper is expected to deal 6564 armor damage to an Onslaught, out of which of course we'll get damage to overflow to hull so it should actually deal 2407 hull damage with no armor skills.

For the Dragonfire, we'd get that the first tick will deal 556 armor damage, the second tick will deal 616 armor damage, the third tick will deal 699 armor damage so that's actually 1750 armor damage and then 121 hull damage, and then the fourth and fifth ticks will hit hull so those will deal 783 each for a total of 1687 hull damage with no armor skills. So pretty closely matched. Assuming the target is not rotating during the Dragonfire's fire so all ticks hit the same armor cell.

[Doctorhealsgood]

gonna leave this here this thing from another thread

Weapon_Data.csv
For the "missile" weapon:
- the damage/shot value represents the damage the missile will do if it hits something in-flight, not the beam damage. (beam damage is handled by a mix of the payload weapon and the DEM script)
- proj speed is the maximum speed the missile can accelerate to (see the "engineSpec" in the .proj file for acceleration/turning stats)
- launch speed is the initial speed the missile is fired from the launcher at.

For the "Payload" weapon:
It's a beam weapon, so:
- burst size is time in seconds the beam fires at full power
- chargeup/chargedown, are times before/after the full power portion that the beam will fire, but dealing ~1/3 damage during this time
- burst delay is time between bursts.


For data\weapons\proj\dragon.proj
- "firingTime" is how long the assigned weapon will fire for

In summary (for the dragons base stats):
Once triggered, the weapon, (which in this case is the beam weapon "dragon_payload") has a 1 second "firingTime"
- It starts with "burst size - 0.25" so 0.25 seconds of 8000 damage/second, giving 2000 damage
- Then you have "chargedown - 0.75" so 0.75 seconds of 2666.666 damage/second (1/3 of 8000 damage/second), giving another 2000 damage
we have now reached the full firingTime (0.25+0.75=1) so the weapon stops firing and the DEM is despawned.
And with the values combined this totals in at the expected 4000 damage

[Alex]

Just from a quick test, both the Reaper and the DF break the Onslaught's armor, dealing around 2600 armor damage. The reaper then deals ~1800 hull damage, while the DF deals ~600.

For the interaction with Damage Control - beam damage ticks happen 10 times a second, but the hull damage happens during the tail end of the beam when damage/second is lower, so chances are for the initial DF shot, Damage Control would not get triggered at all.

For a hit vs completely bare hull, the first tick would deal 800 damage, which gets reduced to 600 by Damage Control to begin with (and possibly further by e.g. high CR or Solar Shielding or anything else, such as residual armor), and subsequent ticks would not be affected if one of the ticks triggered it, so *at most* we're talking about the full hit losing 60 points of damage, and less than that in any sort of real scenario; basically negligible.

[Clockwork Owl]

Hit Strength, the weapon's virtual damage for armor's damage reduction calculation is:
* for burst beam(not continuous), equivalent to single projectile with (DPS / duration) damage, accounting for damage type modifier. For the Dragonfire, it translates to 32,000 during its peak.

[BaBosa]

Hit Strength, the weapon's virtual damage for armor's damage reduction calculation is:
* for burst beam(not continuous), equivalent to single projectile with (DPS / duration) damage, accounting for damage type modifier. For the Dragonfire, it translates to 32,000 during its peak.

What? For all beams the hit strength is half the dps in the weapon_data file which for dragonfires is 8,000 as mentioned above so the hit strength is 4,000 during its full strength burst period and then 1/3 that during the cool down.

For the interaction with Damage Control - beam damage ticks happen 10 times a second, but the hull damage happens during the tail end of the beam when damage/second is lower, so chances are for the initial DF shot, Damage Control would not get triggered at all.

For a hit vs completely bare hull, the first tick would deal 800 damage, which gets reduced to 600 by Damage Control to begin with (and possibly further by e.g. high CR or Solar Shielding or anything else, such as residual armor), and subsequent ticks would not be affected if one of the ticks triggered it, so *at most* we're talking about the full hit losing 60 points of damage, and less than that in any sort of real scenario; basically negligible.

So damage controls elite effect is useless against all beams since it’ll only apply to one tick of damage.

[Alex]

What? For all beams the hit strength is half the dps in the weapon_data file which for dragonfires is 8,000 as mentioned above so the hit strength is 4,000 during its full strength burst period and then 1/3 that during the cool down.

Correct, though to clarify, the 1/3rd is an approximation. Beam damage is iirc based on the square of its brightness, and an integral of x^2 over [0, 1] is 1/3rd. The actual damage during that period will depend on how the damage ticks line up and will be different for each tick, depending on the brightness of the beam at that time.

So damage controls elite effect is useless against all beams since it’ll only apply to one tick of damage.

Unless the beam DPS is extremely high and the duration extremely short, yes!

[Clockwork Owl]

Just from a quick test, both the Reaper and the DF break the Onslaught's armor, dealing around 2600 armor damage. The reaper then deals ~1800 hull damage, while the DF deals ~600.

Then I'm left with 1 / 4 Dragonfires versus 5 / 19 Reapers, while the latter also saves me 2 OP. It's just, doesn't feel too worthwile. I concur the difference between each unit ordnances themselves are, despite almost double on-paper anti-armor power, not drastic enough and can be considered an exchange for Elite Damage Control bypass.

I get the reasoning behind the low ammo count but also feel like you should pull some other balancing levers. Either some other role a Reaper cannot fill at all(go all-on with dual anti-shield anti-armor pressure and add some extra shield damage?), reduce OP to be in line with one size lower(potential risk of feeling like waste of the slot), or give slow ammo regen?

For all beams the hit strength is half the dps in the weapon_data file

Guess the wiki page I've referenced for this is either incorrect or outdated then.

[BaBosa]

What? For all beams the hit strength is half the dps in the weapon_data file which for dragonfires is 8,000 as mentioned above so the hit strength is 4,000 during its full strength burst period and then 1/3 that during the cool down.

Correct, though to clarify, the 1/3rd is an approximation. Beam damage is iirc based on the square of its brightness, and an integral of x^2 over [0, 1] is 1/3rd. The actual damage during that period will depend on how the damage ticks line up and will be different for each tick, depending on the brightness of the beam at that time.

That's really cool but also why? It seems like a convoluted way to do it.
This does mean though that it maintains good armor pierce which is nice.

Just from a quick test, both the Reaper and the DF break the Onslaught's armor, dealing around 2600 armor damage. The reaper then deals ~1800 hull damage, while the DF deals ~600.

Then I'm left with 1 / 4 Dragonfires versus 5 / 19 Reapers, while the latter also saves me 2 OP. It's just, doesn't feel too worthwile. I concur the difference between each unit ordnances themselves are, despite almost double on-paper anti-armor power, not drastic enough and can be considered an exchange for Elite Damage Control bypass.

I get the reasoning behind the low ammo count but also feel like you should pull some other balancing levers. Either some other role a Reaper cannot fill at all(go all-on with dual anti-shield anti-armor pressure and add some extra shield damage?), reduce OP to be in line with one size lower(potential risk of feeling like waste of the slot), or give slow ammo regen?

For all beams the hit strength is half the dps in the weapon_data file

Guess the wiki page I've referenced for this is either incorrect or outdated then.

The idea is supposed to be that dragonfires are homing and are also good against shields and if they overload a shield, any leftover damage will go through and strike the hull, unlike a reaper. They're also supposed to be better against PD. So they're a more useful and general missiles than the reaper and there is supposed to be no real counter to them unlike the reaper. That is pretty valuable and a good reason for them to have less ammo. The only problem with them currently is ships can run away from them and PD still gets them. Alex mentioned adding a bit more range to their laser payload which will help but I'm thinking of making a tiny mod to buff their health and speed if I can figure out how to make them faster, the proj speed variable isn't doing anything for some reason.

Algood. The wiki's details on the game systems aren't great unfortunately.