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[Dri]

Buff Storm Needler. Buff Heph Assault. Buff Gauss Cannon. Don't let the Invictus prevent Mjolnir Cannon from getting buffs either.

When was the last time you seriously and regularly mounted Gauss Cannons and Storm Needlers? They really do need some help.

[BigBrainEnergy]

I spent some time testing things and thinking about it, because often the gut reaction to an underpowered weapon is to just lower the flux cost, but for the hephy I think it really does make sense. Bring it to 0.9 efficiency so that low tech ships can use it more easily. The baseline hellbore vs hephy is an interesting choice, or at least it should be, but without skills the flux cost of the hephy is too high and with skills you can grab elite ballistic mastery and suddenly the hellbore is able to hit smaller targets which eliminates a lot of the reason to choose the hephy in the first place.

[Amazigh]

Buff Storm Needler. Buff Heph Assault. Buff Gauss Cannon. Don't let the Invictus prevent Mjolnir Cannon from getting buffs either.

When was the last time you seriously and regularly mounted Gauss Cannons and Storm Needlers? They really do need some help.

Storm Needler, yeah i can't remember the last time i used it, i guess the (best) use case for it is a close range ship with multiple large ballistics, and few smaller ballistic mounts (to stuff kinetics into) but there's not really a vanilla ship that fits that niche. I'm not 100% sure if it's a case of there just not being a ship that can use it to its strengths, or it actually needs a buff.

Hephaestus, i don't use much either, largely because if i want large to deal HE damage then the hellbore is right there (with more per-shot and lower flux/OP), a small buff might be worth it, but from how some people get it working for them as-is i don't think a big buff would be a great idea.

Mjolnir, is a great gun on ships that can handle it, i use it occasionally even on stuff other than invictus and i feel that buffs would make it too good.

Gauss is my go-to when building a conquest, it's a very good weapon albeit specialised in role, but definitely doesn't need buffs. The combo of 1200 range, high velocity, perfect accuracy and high per-hit damage can not be underestimated.

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And going to BRF:
IMO the core thing that makes it feel problematic is the LDAC, the flux efficiency buff it got in 0.96 is... too much, the fact that it makes it compete favourably with medium weapons, purely because it's more flux efficient? not a good thing imo.

Railgun competing with mediums is fine, as it is really a sidegrade to the arbalest when you really look at it.
Some comparisons for the Arbalest vs Railgun:
+ Arbalest is 1 OP more, for 25 less flux/sec so if you were spending that OP on vents then this is a net gain (and you get a slightly better OrdEx bonus if you're using it)
+ Arbalest has higher hitstrength, so can perform better against armour
- Arbalest has lower velocity, turn rate and has notable spread, this makes it worse against lighter/faster targets, but this is not really an issue when dealing with larger/slower targets.
- Arbalest is a medium, so loses 100 range if you're running BRF (this could either be a massive issue, or a relatively minor drawback, depending on the specific ship you are mounting it on, and early game if you lack BRF it would be a non-issue)
~ Arbalest is a medium, so more weapon HP, but slower repairs (a swings/roundabouts consideration)

Then again if you're proposing BRF'd LDACs on an enforcer, then just 5x arbalest is an interesting counter-proposal:
+ Arbalests have higher DPS
+ Arbalest is more accurate than LDAC
+ Arbalest has more hitstrength than LDAC
- LDACs turn faster than Arbalest
- LDACs have better flux efficiency
~ 5xArbalest costs 15 OP more than 5x LDAC, but you no longer need BRF that saves you either 10 OP, or an s-mod slot, and you get +30flux/sec from Ordnance Expertise.


----

Typing this out (re: the arbalest losing out to the railgun when BRF enters the equation) and i'm almost thinking that BRF could be reworked to something like:
Depending on the largest ballistic slot on the ship:
- Gives small and medium ballistic weapons up to +100/100/200 base range up to a maximum of 800/800/900
This would change how it works on arbalest/heavy mortar/thumper/heavy needler (making them match whatever range your smalls can go to)

And though it would make ACG get something out of it if you don't have a large.. Which might sound OP at first, but then you have to consider the OP/flux costs combined, and i don't think many (if any) ships could make good use of it if you take that into consideration. (you might think SO + ACG + BRF would be the "best" situation for this change but then you'd realise that it'd be a mere 25 range gain as the BRF bonus would be eaten into by SO)

But i guess the core issue with this change is that this would make BRF more of a no-brainer pick.

[Dri]

Is Gauss Cannon really worth 600 flux/sec though? 600 flux/sec for 350 kinetic DPS? 600 flux/sec is the Onslaught's entire base flux dissipation lol

Ludd almighty, why are Gauss Cannon and Mjolnir such high flux/sec for ships that have bottom tier flux stats? The only weapon with more flux/sec than these two is the Plasma Cannon but at least you're getting 750 energy DPS out of it!

[Hiruma Kai]

CapnHector, I'd recommend trying something closer to what Pirates will actually throw at you when testing your Onlsaught build in the sim.

Say, Talon Interceptor + Salamander Condor (3rd one in the list), the Mule, and one Afflictor (P).  Thats something you might see relatively early game, before you have a full fleet.  From my admittedly very quick sim testing using the originally posted DLAC, PLC, and Devastator build plus ITU/Expanded Missile racks s-mods, and Auxilliary Thruster thrown on, a bog standard Onslaught (with same officer and s-mods of Expanded Missile Racks and ITU) has a lot more health left over at the end than your very forward focused build.  A single Sarissa wing is not much protection for your rear arc, even though the build turns well.  Still, phase frigates are going to be the biggest weakness of the build.  Admittedly, not a concern against Ordos.

You can also certainly make it work in a fleet context with escort ships and so forth, but if you're numerically outnumbered by a Pirate fleet that includes a few Afflictors or Shades, you might have some issues in the actual campaign.  Also, seems a bit silly to leave empty rear mounts when using elite Ordinance Expertise.  Seems like you're leaving flux dissipation on the table, unrealized.

Given you are running Ordinance Expertise, not filling weapon slots means leaving flux on the table you could have been taking to increase damage output further.

[BigBrainEnergy]

Is Gauss Cannon really worth 600 flux/sec though? 600 flux/sec for 350 kinetic DPS? 600 flux/sec is the Onslaught's entire base flux dissipation lol

You wouldn't put it on an onslaught. Gauss + harpoons works well on ships that don't necessarily want to get close like the manticore, some legion builds, or the conquest. Gauss is the longest range non-missile weapon in the game by a large margin while being strong against both shields and armour. I don't think it needs any buffs because it could quickly become the default choice.

example

[close]

[TauCetiRedGuard]

Is Gauss Cannon really worth 600 flux/sec though? 600 flux/sec for 350 kinetic DPS? 600 flux/sec is the Onslaught's entire base flux dissipation lol

Ludd almighty, why are Gauss Cannon and Mjolnir such high flux/sec for ships that have bottom tier flux stats? The only weapon with more flux/sec than these two is the Plasma Cannon but at least you're getting 750 energy DPS out of it!

I am under the impression the high flux is to balance out their outstanding states in comparison to other ballistic weapons with the Gauss Cannon having the biggest base range of any non-missile weapon in the game and the Mjolnir doing hardflux energy damage at 900 range compared to the 700 range other hardflux large energy weapons have. I do agree that it its rather ridicules that as a result of the flux cost the only ship that can make effective use out of either is the Conquest.

[Dri]

Yes, I don't think flux/sec is the best dial to turn up when balancing ballistic weapons. Reign them in some other way if necessary and avoid giving them outrageous flux costs since most ships that can mount them can't afford such high flux.

Ballistic weapons should be highly flux efficient and with superior range—balance them via OP cost, accuracy and projectile speed, imo.

So if we're purely talking buffs, then give Storm Needler longer range. Make Mjolnir and Gauss Cannon more flux efficient.

High Intensity Laser got a 100 flux/sec shaved off in this patch, come on guys, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. We want large ballistic weapons to be more attractive don't we? So stop saying they're fine when they aren't stacking up to how good large energy has gotten.

[Buggie]

In what other way would they reign them in? Flux cost and range are really the only real balance levers that can be adjusted. OP cost is a joke since the ships that want to mount large weapons don't care about it, and while i guess you could use accuracy a gun that just misses all the time would feel awful to use, damage per shot is another one but that is already taken well into account when the weapons are being made, making gauss have less damage per shot or increasing storm needlers would feel really weird.

And no, i don't really want the large ballistic slot to get some power creep buffs, that buff to the HIL was stupid imo as the weapon was already fine for what it was, the buffs to the other energy weapons were nice though as they were struggling. I don't  see why we're asking for buffs for the gauss and mjolnir, they both already have uses in the game, its not like they're some unviable weapon that you're hindering yourself by picking, they have the downside of requiring very specific ship builds to actually make them work, but when they do work they are good, which isn't the case for the weapons that actually need buffs.

You buff them and they will become weapons that you use in every ship, i mean gauss cannon with a normal flux efficiency? Why would i EVER pick any other weapon than this thing if not for just roleplay purposes? The only stuff that should be getting buffed are horrendous weapons like the storm needler and dragonfires, and weapons that are kinda-ok-but-mostly-still-bad like the haphaestus. (and i'm gonna sneak my possibly hot take in here, the hellbore really shouldn't be as good as it is)

[BigBrainEnergy]

Actually, with the recent buff to HIL the hephy looks so much worse. It's got 2 advantages: much faster turn rate in a turret slot, and 240 hard flux dps (at x2 the flux cost). That's it.

Meanwhile the HIL has: over twice the hit strength with slightly higher dps, 80 lower flux/second, perfect accuracy, and 100 more base range. If you drop the hephy to 100 flux/shot it'll have the same flux/second as the current hil which will at least cancel out that advantage.

[CapnHector]

CapnHector, I'd recommend trying something closer to what Pirates will actually throw at you when testing your Onlsaught build in the sim.

Say, Talon Interceptor + Salamander Condor (3rd one in the list), the Mule, and one Afflictor (P).  Thats something you might see relatively early game, before you have a full fleet.  From my admittedly very quick sim testing using the originally posted DLAC, PLC, and Devastator build plus ITU/Expanded Missile racks s-mods, and Auxilliary Thruster thrown on, a bog standard Onslaught (with same officer and s-mods of Expanded Missile Racks and ITU) has a lot more health left over at the end than your very forward focused build.  A single Sarissa wing is not much protection for your rear arc, even though the build turns well.  Still, phase frigates are going to be the biggest weakness of the build.  Admittedly, not a concern against Ordos.

You can also certainly make it work in a fleet context with escort ships and so forth, but if you're numerically outnumbered by a Pirate fleet that includes a few Afflictors or Shades, you might have some issues in the actual campaign.  Also, seems a bit silly to leave empty rear mounts when using elite Ordinance Expertise.  Seems like you're leaving flux dissipation on the table, unrealized.

Given you are running Ordinance Expertise, not filling weapon slots means leaving flux on the table you could have been taking to increase damage output further.

Oh, you are correct. I suppose that serves me right for just trying to recreate something from memory, since I haven't used Onslaught this version and don't in fact run Ordnance Expertise on my officers, and I never used one early game anyway, so my memory build would have ever been used as part of a highly aggressive fleet.

So yes, given using Ordnance Expertise, you are correct, should probably put two of the small ballistics of your choice facing rear and also fill the side slots appropriately. That should also eliminate the Afflictor firing from the rear problem and is the right thing to do.

The fact I'm bad at designing an ad hoc Onslaught for every part of the game really doesn't matter for the argument about small ballistics though. The Radiant test I think fairly illustrates the potential dps even if I left some weaknesses due to poor design.

[Dri]

Alright let's focus then, from all that I've read in this thread and the thread I made we all more or less agree that Storm Needler and Heph AG are at the bottom of the barrel.

So Alex, what can we do for the Storm Needler at least to make it more worth mounting? The time has come to chime in!

[Lawrence Master-blaster]

What a bizarre thread. You want to buff large ballistics, which is the single best slot after large missiles? Well, be my guest, plenty of my ships have those(and none of the Remnants/Omegas do)

[BaBosa]

Heph AG isn't too bad. maybe it could be given a slightly higher hit strength with the same DPS and maybe a small OP cost reduction and it should be just fine.
Storm needle definitely needs a OP reduction or some boost. I wonder if a shield resonator effect that builds up over time could be good. Say each shot decreases shield efficiency by 0.2% and they stack on each other up to 20% but the effect decreases by 1% per second (so dropping shields is a counter). Then the storm needle becomes a big shield breaker to take down paragons and radiants. Maybe only apply the buff to storm needler damage and make the bonus uncapped so that the storm needler is really impactful and scary to big high tech ships.
Honestly, the other larges are fine. The problem is more about small ballistic power creep. HE damage isn't super critical unlike kinetic because of missiles and you only need to break armor once and then kinetics do fine on hull.

[CapnHector]

What a bizarre thread. You want to buff large ballistics, which is the single best slot after large missiles? Well, be my guest, plenty of my ships have those(and none of the Remnants/Omegas do)

I agree with you Lawrence, for example the bad solo vs cheap tricks but destroys Ordos Onslaught which I regret posting above or for an actual good ship the Retribution builds would not work without Large Ballistics. Small ballistics are the best kinetics available in the game and larges are best non-missile HE. In addition to Conquest ofc. Mostly Storm Needler is bad and mediums.

Edit: well HIL is up there too, probably beats Heph and Hellbore.