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Author Topic: Storm Needler needs a rebalance  (Read 1426 times)

Trensicourt

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Storm Needler needs a rebalance
« on: May 17, 2023, 10:50:56 AM »

From the wiki it says:
"The Storm Needler is an incredibly efficient shield killer, boasting roughly the same flux cost as a Mark IX Autocannon while offering superior DPS. However, it fares worse against armor due to lower per-hit damage while having less range and the highest OP cost of any ballistic weapon."

True but it also costs 10 OP more. 10 OP is a big difference. Not only that, the range is a whopping 300 less and it tickles armor. I can't seem to get this weapon to be worth its weight. Furthermore, if I needed to, I could just get two heavy needlers and buff them with Expanded Magazines, which mind you now also gives 50% recharge reduction when built-in as a S-mod.

So am I crazy or is this weapon oddly tuned?
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Storm Needler needs a rebalance
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2023, 11:13:04 AM »

You can't "just" get two medium mounts in place of one large. Expanded Magazines does not apply to Needlers as they do not regenerate ammo. Storm Needler has 43% more DPS than the Mark IX. 10 more OP is usually irrelevant on ships with large ballistic mounts.
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Wyvern

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Re: Storm Needler needs a rebalance
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2023, 11:36:57 AM »

So am I crazy or is this weapon oddly tuned?
Yes.

Yes, it's oddly tuned. Very niche; incredibly good if you can get it to work, but you often can't. I've seen it work well on one-sided Conquest builds and SO Dominators.

Yes, you're crazy*; see previous answer about heavy needlers and expanded magazines.

* Footnote: Since tone does not come across in text, the intended tone here is good-natured poking fun. If you find this insulting rather than entertaining, let me know and I'll happily edit it out.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Draba

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Re: Storm Needler needs a rebalance
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2023, 12:30:23 PM »

True but it also costs 10 OP more. 10 OP is a big difference. Not only that, the range is a whopping 300 less and it tickles armor. I can't seem to get this weapon to be worth its weight. Furthermore, if I needed to, I could just get two heavy needlers and buff them with Expanded Magazines, which mind you now also gives 50% recharge reduction when built-in as a S-mod.
Storm needler is 700 range, mark IX 900 so only 200 difference.
As mentioned you can't just use 2 M weapons instead of 1 L, and heavy needler isn't charge based so doesn't benefit from expanded mags.
Storm needler is not as universally useful as a mark IX, but on the ships that like it it's really strong. Cramming 500 kinetic DPS at 0.7 efficiency into a single slot is nice.
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xenoargh

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Re: Storm Needler needs a rebalance
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2023, 03:45:10 PM »

Storm Needler is awful, always has been.

For 10 OPs more than competitors that do more real damage to armor, plus using up a Large Ballistic slot, it should be considerably more effective.
Spoiler
Current stat-line for the weapon in Rebal:
Storm Needler,multineedler,3,,15000,800,,750,,20,15,28,,,,KINETIC,250,,0,3,3,0.05,6.8,6.8,,,,800,,,20,,,,kinetic19, remnant, base_bp,,,,Anti Shield,,,,,,,,,,50,####,,1.014675531      

Note: this weapon fires a burst of shotgun-type projectiles that do equivalent total damage (i.e., 750 total Kinetic, but each small shot actually does 50, and the pattern spreads quite a lot). So its armor-killing potential is quite a lot lower than other things, and it's somewhat lousy against small, fast targets, but it does what it says on the tin against big things, rather than being too weak for most uses, let alone letting the AI use one.

The long windup, uninterruptable burst fire, mediocre accuracy and relatively-slow turning speed largely balance with the high Flux-to-DPS ratio.

At 800 range, users must generally get closer than is safe, which has always been one of the reasons why the current version is balanced incorrectly; it can't kite and stay even moderately efficient, even mounted on a Conquest that's doing a broadside while using Maneuvering Jets, unless the opponent is equipped very poorly for range, so the Conquest is taking return fire.

At the very least, Vanilla's version should have a much better efficiency, since it misses quite a lot, or be bumped to 1000 range, where it'd make a credible kiting weapon but be relatively inefficient because of misses- probably not a whole lot better than a Beam, vs. an opponent with Shield Mastery. For everybody who's going to go "1500 vs. shields for 250 Flux is OP"... nah, this thing's still not great at anything but its job, which is shield-killing. 50 Kinetic barely polishes the surface of anything with real armor, but it makes the weapon capable of bursting down a Paragon if the opponent is lucky enough to survive long enough to get into range.

Anyhow, that's my take. It's one of those weapons where it's so obviously bad I'm always kind of amused when I see attempts to make it work anywhere but very selective Sim runs, lol.
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Trensicourt

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Re: Storm Needler needs a rebalance
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2023, 04:02:08 PM »

If Alex really wants this weapon to stay as an upsized Heavy Needler, then reduce its OP cost to something more competitive, like 24 OP. Even then, I would guarantee most people would still pick the Gauss Cannon over this. As Xenoargh as said, this weapon is basically a paint scraper for how inaccurate and weak the alpha damage is. Too small of a target? No damage. A tiny bit of armor? No damage. Too far away? No damage. On a slow capital ship, this weapon is in most cases, useless, even against fighters. Heck,  certain fighters have enough armor to waste a Gauss Cannon time for dozens of seconds depend on how far away you place the fighter.
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Draba

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Re: Storm Needler needs a rebalance
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2023, 05:41:08 PM »

At the very least, Vanilla's version should have a much better efficiency, since it misses quite a lot, or be bumped to 1000 range, where it'd make a credible kiting weapon but be relatively inefficient because of misses- probably not a whole lot better than a Beam, vs. an opponent with Shield Mastery.
But gauss is 1200 range and does much more damage to armor.
I think storm needler needs to be at least 1250, will still take forever to kill a XIV Onslaught.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2023, 05:56:10 PM by Draba »
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xenoargh

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Re: Storm Needler needs a rebalance
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2023, 06:45:21 PM »

That'd be an interesting solution; it'd be vaguely able to kite Paragons without committing suicide, sometimes.

Note: I'm not advocating for the precise stat-line above; Rebal's ships have a lot more tools for dealing with Flux than Vanilla, and ships in general are tougher, so a 3:1 ratio's probably too high. But it should be net-positive on Flux trades, even after taking miss-rates into account, or have enough range to actually pose a kiting threat, etc.
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Thaago

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Re: Storm Needler needs a rebalance
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2023, 06:55:47 PM »

Storm Needlers are incredibly good if you need high efficiency, high damage kinetic pressure at a short range. Like say for fighting an enemy that is a shield tank that loves to get into energy range (700 for the hard flux large energy weapons). There are a few enemies like that in the game...
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Realm

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Re: Storm Needler needs a rebalance
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2023, 09:03:04 PM »

I personally love these things, often get good mileage out of them. Currently running an Invictus with 2 Storm Needlers at the front paired with 2 Hellbores, and a pair of Alpha Ramparts w/ a Storm Needler each in the turret slot.
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mortache

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Re: Storm Needler needs a rebalance
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2023, 03:21:38 AM »

At the very least, Vanilla's version should have a much better efficiency, since it misses quite a lot, or be bumped to 1000 range, where it'd make a credible kiting weapon but be relatively inefficient because of misses- probably not a whole lot better than a Beam, vs. an opponent with Shield Mastery.
But gauss is 1200 range and does much more damage to armor.
I think storm needler needs to be at least 1250, will still take forever to kill a XIV Onslaught.
Gauss also deals pathetic damage, has horrible flux exchange rate and since its longest range, you can't follow up with anything meaningful once they lower their shields. Maybe the only plausible use for it is on nimble "light" cruisers and capitals like Conquest and kiting the enemy for 20 minutes. I prefer to get stuck in with burn drive, make them lower their shields and use reaper torpedos point blank like a shotgun. The only use for Gauss canon is when you just want to give some anti-shield to a mindless AI ship so that it's not completely useless, but even then I think there are better options.

But genuine question: does "rate of fire" do anything to the refire delay of Heavy Needlers? Like the 10% from Armored Weapon Mounts?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2023, 03:30:25 AM by mortache »
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Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Storm Needler needs a rebalance
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2023, 03:57:11 AM »

But genuine question: does "rate of fire" do anything to the refire delay of Heavy Needlers? Like the 10% from Armored Weapon Mounts?

AFAIK the ceiling for fire rate is 20/second, and Storm Needlers fire 10 times per second - so yes, they should benefit from it.
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Pratapon51

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Re: Storm Needler needs a rebalance
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2023, 04:03:49 AM »

Storm Needlers are great for in-your-face ships with large ballistics. There's a two-pronged, heavily armored capital that happens to have burn drive as well as a lot of slots for heavy mortars, HMGs, and medium missiles....
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Draba

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Re: Storm Needler needs a rebalance
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2023, 04:08:53 AM »

At the very least, Vanilla's version should have a much better efficiency, since it misses quite a lot, or be bumped to 1000 range, where it'd make a credible kiting weapon but be relatively inefficient because of misses- probably not a whole lot better than a Beam, vs. an opponent with Shield Mastery.
But gauss is 1200 range and does much more damage to armor.
I think storm needler needs to be at least 1250, will still take forever to kill a XIV Onslaught.
Gauss also deals pathetic damage, has horrible flux exchange rate and since its longest range, you can't follow up with anything meaningful once they lower their shields.
To clarify: I  wasn't serious.
Suggesting a storm needler range increase to 1000 is just so completely bonkers might as well play along :)


Storm Needlers are great for in-your-face ships with large ballistics. There's a two-pronged, heavily armored capital that happens to have burn drive as well as a lot of slots for heavy mortars, HMGs, and medium missiles....
Yeah, big favorite for me in the Onslaught center slot.
Really ties the ship together.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2023, 04:11:43 AM by Draba »
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mortache

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Re: Storm Needler needs a rebalance
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2023, 04:30:22 AM »

But genuine question: does "rate of fire" do anything to the refire delay of Heavy Needlers? Like the 10% from Armored Weapon Mounts?

AFAIK the ceiling for fire rate is 20/second, and Storm Needlers fire 10 times per second - so yes, they should benefit from it.

Ok so I just ended up doing 10 bursts with a stopwatch and it took 55 seconds instead of 60 with the 10% bonus from AWM, so I guess it does work. I was just confused if the rate of fire only works during the "burst" and not the whole duration of the refire delay.
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