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[Megas]

Played around with Invictus more, sicced it against a 300+k Hegemony bounty, and things went easier for me than without it.  Invictus just chews through cruisers and battleships with its four main guns.  I brought Pegasus as a backup, with the rest of my fleet with spare random clunkers for Hull Restoration to fix while I travel.  Invictus took some damage, but was in no danger of dying.  I only swapped to Pegasus once mainly because it got isolated from the fleet and wanted to move it back closer to the fleet before it got picked off.

Next time, I probably will replace one of the Xyphos with a Sarissa.  I found more Gauss cannons, but I discovered none of the turrets fire while the Lidar is on, and I rely primarily on Lidar boosted guns.

So far, my use of Invictus is generally turn on Lidar, fire the hardpoint guns, vent, repeat.

[crvt]

Apex certainly feels weakest of the Ordo ships now, even weaker than a Nova. A Nova may at least focus fire and kill an occasional frigate.

It is just too slow to kill anything mobile, and doesn't have the firepower/sustainability/burst/mobility of a Radiant.
So they're easy to avoid until they can be ganged up on, and they won't kill anything meanwhile, effectively becoming wasted DP that isn't participating in combat much.

Maybe against fleets where the core of the firepower is a line of slow-moving long-range high DPS ships they do better, but I imagine by the time they close in they're already losing on flux.

It is just a top speed 50 medium energy ship, it is dangerous close but doesn't have the speed or the range to pick the fights it wants; even if it had a better shield that wouldn't change.
The mod helps with the range issue a bit, but it still isn't a capital with large mounts, while it moves at the speed of one.

Give it 90 base speed and then it's fine-ish with its current range. Ok maybe 90 is too much, but at least 70.

You probably could come up with some fleet compositions in which Apex performs very well, but it just isn't effective in the average Ordo composition.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

Built in automated repair unit and armored weapon mounts are a waste. They should be replaced, and just about anything would be better.

Converted hanger alongside two Xyphos is way too expensive (46 OP). Not sure what to replace it with, maybe some missiles should be added alongside built in expanded missile racks.

I think ARU is fine to pick, (especially with the s-mod bonus) because the repair time on larges is... painfully long, and you losing your guns on an invictus would be a bad time.

For AWM, remember the s-mod bonus: increased fire rate. That extra damage output could easily make the difference between killing something in one volley or not, and "insta-killing" something in one volley before it can start shooting at you? that's truly valuable.

And CH xyphos? sure you could go for missiles instead, but as much as i hate to see empty missile mounts, i feel like they might be worth it on the invictus.

But would ARU be required with damage control? That is the question. If not then something else should be chosen.

AWM would be ideal if the ship was flux neutral, it's not, so all AWM is achieving is decreasing the time before venting is required. While this still results in a net dps increase, it's less than the 10% given by ARU due to needing to vent sooner.

Xyphos are good for anti frigate duties, but thunders are better. The xyphos need replacing either with more useful fighters, missiles, or rear weapons.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

@Originem

In previous discussions about Converted Hangar, Alex seemed determined to propose a plan to increase deployment points. This plan once caused an outcry in community, with many predicting a bleak future for the Converted Hangar. However, even back then, we sensed something was off.

Now, I can conclude that not only has the Converted Hangar not been nerfed, it has become incredibly buffed—more so than ever before—replacing targeting unit as a must-have hullmod in the game. Any ship with deployment points greater than or equal to 7 should install a Converted Hangar unconditionally unless there are serious principle issues.

The Converted Hangar has removed all substantial debuffs, merely extending the preparation time, which surprisingly doesn't lead to additional readiness degradation.

For most Converted Hangar options, the DP increase usually does not exceed 3, and if you only need a set of Wasp as an external mine launcher, this number is negligible at 1. But for regular carrier, it could be thought as 5dp per bay. An exceptionally fragile and slow destroyer may appear in the top left corner when not intentionally protected. But now, it could be a ship equipped with kinetic blasters, mines, and Burst PD Lasers with an equivalent shield capacity of 20k while only paying 1DP for the hangar.

Based on the actual update content, Alex's original decision might not have been to nerf the Converted Hangar but rather to completely eliminate all non-combat carriers.

The cheapest converted hanger ship is the buffalo mkII, at 5 deployment points per 1 hanger. What this rework has achieved is making ships that just need a bit of additional fighter support viable, while nerfing fleets that made use of converted hanger ships as their main carrier force. If your fleet is a couple DP away from max with no room for more ships, you can give a few ships converted hanger to fill in the gap. However, if your playstyle lacks carriers, (pure high tech), converted hanger shrike spam is no longer viable as hanger cost per DP is more costly than an Astral.

Overall a decent change but makes that fact that high tech lacks decent general-purpose carriers an issue, with the only solution being to tech into Automated Ships to get five or so scintillas.

I know these aren't your opinions, I'm just leaving them here for those that think converted hangers will shift the meta away from normal carriers.

Also, before I forget, @Alex when are we getting high tech destroyer and cruiser carriers?

[Princess_of_Evil]

Suspicion matters very little, honestly. Even if you have maxed out, most of the time patrol ships want to steal your supplies rather than touch the actual contraband; also, buffalo (p) exists.

[Alex]

Also, before I forget, @Alex when are we getting high tech destroyer and cruiser carriers?

(I'm not a fan of adding a bunch of carriers just so the same "3 flight decks on a cruiser" exists in more or less just a different color; they'd need to bring something substantially new to the table!)

[SafariJohn]

When blue Heron?

[Princess_of_Evil]

What we really need is a high-tech cruiser carrier with four built-in wings of wasps.

[Thecrippler]

What we need is something new like Auxillary electronic warfare ships something like UFA made with the Auxillary Vessel (disco ball) would be good if other popular factions get soting new to the table

[TheLaughingDead]

Also, before I forget, @Alex when are we getting high tech destroyer and cruiser carriers?

Hmm, phase carrier? Phase fighters? Would love to see some fighters that cost as much as high-tier bombers, thinking phase fighters and/or antimatter blasters (probably on higher cooldown). How such a thing would be balanced, I'm not sure, but they would definitely be frickin' cool!

[PsychoThruster]

Also, before I forget, @Alex when are we getting high tech destroyer and cruiser carriers?

(I'm not a fan of adding a bunch of carriers just so the same "3 flight decks on a cruiser" exists in more or less just a different color; they'd need to bring something substantially new to the table!)

Why not introduce a shieldless defensive/support carrier with built in phase drones that each contain a fairly strong shield emitter that can project into real space, but no offensive armament. It can send it's drones to support allies by giving them what is essentially a second shield. Keeping with the high tech spirit the carrier is equipped with the recall system popularized by the astral so that it can rapidly recall it's shield drones when threatened. The added defensive layer the drones provide help high tech ships get in close enough to employ their heavy hitting short range weapons such as AM blasters. Can be balanced around number of drones in wing and recovery time of drones as well as the flux costs associated with remaining phased. When the drones are "regrouped" on their mother ship they nest in docking ports and don't phase. When recalled they have to take a second to dock.

Recommended name: Targe

[Doctorhealsgood]

>Phase fighters
Poor pilots.

[eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef]

Also, before I forget, @Alex when are we getting high tech destroyer and cruiser carriers?

(I'm not a fan of adding a bunch of carriers just so the same "3 flight decks on a cruiser" exists in more or less just a different color; they'd need to bring something substantially new to the table!)

Currently midline carriers slightly work, but are still a bit too slow for phase heavy, fast high tech, or safety overrides fleets. Scintilla work well due to their officers being free, which means there's no drawback to putting safety overrides on them.

So there's a niche that isn't being filled unless you add automated ships. My suggestion if you're feeling bored one day and want to experiment with something simple (at least in terms of sprite work) is to make a carrier conversion of the Shrike. Keep its speed, remove its medium energy mount, replace its plasma burn with flares or something like that, decrease its flux dissipation and add 1 hanger bay. Same DP costs of course. This makes it a worse scintilla, but remnants should be a bit overpowered.

If you do ever feel like adding some high tech carriers, my suggestion for interesting balance is they are very fast which allows them to keep up with faster fleets and avoid enemies far easier.  However, they typically have one less fighter wing than their competitors, resulting in poor fighter wing per DP costs. Systems for these ships should either be simple, be movement, or fighter movement fitting in line with the high tech doctrine.

I am sorry in advance if this discussion derails the thread.

[BigBrainEnergy]

A slow high-tech carrier with fortress shields would be interesting. Make it a 30dp cruiser with 4 bays and give it a single large energy slot, but light on missiles. You could even make the missile mounts universals to give players the option to ignore missiles in favor of ballistics (maybe 1 medium universal and 2 small missiles?). That would be pretty distinct from the other options but it's not like the game needs it.

[keckles]

Maybe something that has a system that's kind of the opposite of the Astral would work for a high-tech carrier, rather than recalling their fighters/bombers back to the vessel they can teleport them and allow their craft to attack from unexpected directions or completely change which part of the battlefield they can influence. IMO it would certainly make for a more aggressive carrier than the Astral as you'd have to have the carrier fairly close the frontlines to take best take advantage of the system.