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[CapnHector]

Aka "focus on large targets" order. The dream of many players and one I've been thinking about, since ever after I switched to a fleet consisting only of 13 Ramparts and 9 Shades, I can lose fights to Remnant Ordos if half of my fleet decides to chase a Lumen as there is no comeback for a shieldless fleet. What's worse, even if they kill the Lumen, they will pursue other frigates after that are closer, even if there is a much stronger enemy force of larger ships that has built up, leading to defeat in detail unless micromanaged. Not exactly a new issue but rather a well known part of the Starsector experience.

Suggestion: add a focus on large targets order that causes the ships with the order to no longer use any frigate sized ships as reference points for maneuvering (alt: no longer choose frigate sized ships as targets, unless no other size targets are visible).

[Cruacious]

A ship priority focus would be grand, but would need fine-tuning as frigates are DANGEROUS flankers. Normally I get around it using rally points and escort commands, but that can be cumbersome as you have implied.

Frankly, I think some tuning of the fleet command structure to allow more structured management and Target Priorities would be a solid way to fix this issue.

[Jackundor]

hm, i'd generally think more of changing the ai so that ships bigger than frigates don't chase after them when there are bigger enemy units on the field. you can order my ships back when they are chasing frigates but you'll probably get screwed in the meantime, and even with this extra order you are still liable to forget. A change to the base AI could be tricky for alex but it wouldn't be something that you forget and get screwed over. perhaps it should take into account if the enemy frigate is attacking you or retreating and what the relative speeds are

[CapnHector]

I mean I would love for the AI to be naturally smarter about it, but improving the AI takes a lot of time. As we can see this has been on the table since at least 2017. I don't mean that as a criticism - Alex is doing a wonderful job and I'm a big fan - but it is not likely that that is the type of change that it might happen fast if we ask to change AI fleet strategy in a general way.

So in the meantime I would like to have this order, so I can give it manually to my big ships that are too slow to chase frigates without ruining the fleet's strategy.

Edit to add: being able to give such an order at the start of battle would be a big improvement over having to monitor the ships and try to guess what they are going to do and issue pre-emptive orders to stop them, even though it's still something that you must remember and might forget. If you wanted to automatize it then you could have it on by default for cruisers and capital ships, whose chasing frigates around the map is usually more of an issue than an asset since they are too slow to do it properly, so the player can tell them to chase frigates instead if the player wants to.

[Megas]

Frigates are cowardly gnats that may be impossible for slower ships to catch, and I do not want my slowpokes to chase a ship they cannot catch halfway across the map and leave their assigned target behind.

[SafariJohn]

Would be funny to see the "get enemy to chase zippy frigate" cheese tactic get nuked.

[Alex]

Oddly enough, from the 0.95.1a patch notes:

Removed code responsible for making the AI try not to waste a large ship's time chasing down a small one and regroup with nearby allies instead
   It was causing behavior that looked like refusal to engage
   On consideration, a decision like this should be up to the player, via commands

Basically, as it turns out: the AI trying to be "smart" on a strategic level often just looks like a bug. (Though I suppose that aspect of it *could* be improved with something like "barks", which of course necessitates a good mechanism for those, etc.)

And it's pretty hard to make this specific thing work well, too, since there are plenty of frigates that are extremely dangerous for a larger ship to ignore...

[CapnHector]

Alex, if it's okay, I'd like to suggest what is said in those notes, that is, leave the choice to the player and include this as an optional order.

Admittedly the Rampart fleet is an extreme example since these are slow ships that move about mainly with a burn drive, so burning in the wrong direction can be fatal; but that just makes it more pointed, the issue is still there eg. your Conquest fleet losing because 2 of the Conquests go chasing a Lumen; Radiant spinning around trying to catch a Lumen with its frontal guns, etc.

It would be great to have it as an optional order for when the player feels it is right, for example then you could give it on slow ships that are not meant to chase frigates while still having your frigates chase frigates. While ignoring frigates can be bad, missing a slow capital from the line of battle because it is distracted is not just disastrous (turns clean victory into potential straight up loss or Pyrrhic slog of death waiting for it to come back while taking losses. What is worse, it is a loss that feels very unfair and frustrating to the player.

If it were an optional order that existed, the responsibility if a dangerous frigate is ignored rests on the player. You could title the order "Hold the Line' or something.

[basileus]

And it's pretty hard to make this specific thing work well, too, since there are plenty of frigates that are extremely dangerous for a larger ship to ignore...

I disagree.  Players shouldn't be able to get away with fielding only Capitals and Battlecruisers.

The solution here isn't for a capital to pay attention to a frigate.  It's for the player fleet to have frigates or destroyers to deal with them, either as pickets or escorts.  There are 3 different escort commands.  (Does anyone use them regularly?)  There are also carriers and strike craft.  Some of which are extremely lethal to frigates.

If players don't want to use proper fleet mixes, then their big guns should get flanked and chewed up.

[Alex]

Admittedly the Rampart fleet is an extreme example since these are slow ships that move about mainly with a burn drive, so burning in the wrong direction can be fatal; but that just makes it more pointed, the issue is still there eg. your Conquest fleet losing because 2 of the Conquests go chasing a Lumen; Radiant spinning around trying to catch a Lumen with its frontal guns, etc.

Capital ships IIRC will not target/go after frigates if there's anything nearby (within 2500-3000 units, something like), so I don't think the issues the Rampart fleet faces generalize to capitals in the same way.

If it were an optional order that existed, the responsibility if a dangerous frigate is ignored rests on the player. You could title the order "Hold the Line' or something.

Hmm. I could see - at some point, not for the next release - adding an "Ignore" command that works much like "Avoid" without the actual avoidance. And then you could assign something to it that you did want to engage it. (Right now, this is what I'd often do with a stray enemy frigate - put an "Avoid" on it and then set a Medusa after it, or something. Though a "Defend" will often work just as well if it's a question of making sure your fleet moves as a whole, more or less.)

[Princess_of_Evil]

I use the escort command very often, since otherwise ships tend to split apart too much. You can ignore the armchair layer if your fleet steamrolls or if the foe is too top-heavy, since splitting apart enemy cruisers and capitals is often better for you than for them, though.
Honestly, the game just needs general "tactics" buttons on the armchair layer. Like the "full retreat" buttons, but more of them.

[CapnHector]

Admittedly the Rampart fleet is an extreme example since these are slow ships that move about mainly with a burn drive, so burning in the wrong direction can be fatal; but that just makes it more pointed, the issue is still there eg. your Conquest fleet losing because 2 of the Conquests go chasing a Lumen; Radiant spinning around trying to catch a Lumen with its frontal guns, etc.

Capital ships IIRC will not target/go after frigates if there's anything nearby (within 2500-3000 units, something like), so I don't think the issues the Rampart fleet faces generalize to capitals in the same way.

Oh, that's nice! I in fact just noticed it now that you mentioned. However, that does not in fact eliminate the issue for capitals. Let me illustrate with some images of ship movement. This took 2 tries to record, the first time the ships in fact righted their course, I suppose due to heavier ships entering that range. This is using my same old multi-Ordo hunting fleet which you were interested in earlier. It is significantly stronger than the Rampart fleet and can handle stuff like this, but it certainly is not uncommon.

Fleet and opponent

[close]

Fleet movement, capitals chasing frigate, full AI control, no orders

[close]

I suppose you could just increase the range at which capitals do not go after frigates if there is something else within?

The Ignore command would be great too, although I would prefer having "Ignore small targets" applicable to my ships too so as to not have to click on frigates individually.

Mods: Nexerelin and Starship Legends

[Alex]

Thank you for the screenshots! Right, yes; I should've been more clear, but that's more or less what I meant by "not in the same way". For capitals, the getting sidetracked happens before they engage, when they're on their way. That, I think, is more or less resolved by sticking a defend order somewhere - on one of the capitals, or around a point where you want them to go fight - and then cancelling it when/if desired. Or, heck, even right-clicking them on a "rally task force" can do the job, too.

[Brainwright]

As far as fleet commands go, one thing I’ve found helpful has been in a mod, Secrets of the Frontier.  It reconfigures how objectives are spawned, making them generally more clustered in the middle.

This has been very helpful in fine-tuning how my fleets function, as defending two points gives my fleet more coverage, and assaulting an objective behind the main enemy mass is more reliable than a search and destroy order.

In normal fights, I just make more waypoints of my own to direct my fleet.

One thing I will say for the tactical map in general is that it focuses to much on directing ships toward a point in space, whereas I would want my ships constantly moving.  Something like faster ships orbiting the slower ships.

[Farya]

Could AI simply be modified to account for hull/burn difference? If the ship can't reasonably keep up with enemy chased - it will not, unless it has nothing else to do. Also might be interesting to has toggle/command to specifically chase down or ignore retreating enemies, so your fleet would either let retreating ships escape and focus on those that keep fighting OR specifically focus on pursuing damaged/out of PPT ships.