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Author Topic: Safety Overrides Builds  (Read 2256 times)

CapnHector

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Safety Overrides Builds
« on: February 24, 2023, 03:20:07 AM »

All right, it seems like the last Safety Overrides builds thread was in 2015 according to Google. In memory of how great the recent optimal builds thread was, let's have a Safety Overrides builds thread.

Rules:

- The ship must have Safety Overrides
- The ship must win vs sim Onslaught, that prince of Starsector build testing, prefarably under AI control but player control is acceptable

You are allowed to use any weapons available in the vanilla game and the ship is allowed to require a particular officer and S-mods.

I'll start:

Dram

killing Onslaught (player control)


[close]

Buffalo MkII

killing Onslaught (Player control)


unfortunately I died in the explosion
[close]

Condor

killing Onslaught (Player control)


[close]

Eagle

killing Onslaught (AI control)

[close]

Drover
Okay, anything with 4 missile slots is too easy to turn into an Onslaught killer, seems like I even forgot to use all of my OP and it didn't matter



[close]
« Last Edit: February 24, 2023, 05:46:07 AM by CapnHector »
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IonDragonX

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Re: Safety Overrides Builds
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2023, 10:45:15 AM »

- The ship must win vs sim Onslaught
For the sake of standards, you have to name the Variant and the core build. (I assume 0.95.1a?)
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CapnHector

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Re: Safety Overrides Builds
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2023, 10:59:43 AM »

True! 0.95.1a, vs. Standard Variant (are others even available in the sim without adjusting that one file?) Although come to think of it, please share any cool non-conforming SO builds too.
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CapnHector

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Re: Safety Overrides Builds
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2023, 07:38:35 AM »

Alright here is a mule that does it under AI control. Just ignore the EMR. I originally made it to use the Reaper but then I figured it's going to look lame if all the designs are just SO+Missiles. The Mudskipper MkII is a WIP. I think it might be doable with SO and a HVD but haven't done it yet.

Mule (P)

Killing Onslaught (AI control)


[close]

That was easy, but doing this build challenge with Colossus MkII is kicking my ass like it's that Airman ga taosenai video. This is my best one:


Beating the Onslaught with this under player control is quite easy so I thought I could make the AI do it but no - it seems absolutely impossible. I tried giving it a mass of LMGs with an officer with ePD, I tried different fighters, tried Minipulsers, tried putting in small ballistics at different angles to guide AI behavior but the AI just seems to drive this ship in a weird way like it's almost trying for a head to head fight instead of properly circling to the back. It typically just burn drives in then starts circling around as desired but stops before it gets there, backs off and positions itself to charge the Onslaught's front again.

Anybody got a Colossus MkII build that works?


Okay, here's a fun one

Tarsus

Killing Onslaught (Player control)



[close]
« Last Edit: February 25, 2023, 10:55:00 AM by CapnHector »
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CapnHector

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Re: Safety Overrides Builds
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2023, 07:13:52 AM »

Well, it seems that this thread didn't really catch on, but as a swan song here are some more "carrier" builds".

These are relatively stronger combat ships than say, Dram or Tarsus, so fight under AI control. The first two had aggressive officers (likewise all other ships in this thread by the way). The last had a reckless officer. I also gave the Gemini and Heron a Search & Destroy order at the start because those ships are really cowardly and tended to pull defeat from the jaws of victory by fleeing, so I was getting desperate - don't know if it even does anything. The sad part is, you should disable the system on these ships if you use them as battlecarriers, but there is no option to. However, I think these builds might actually be fine in real fleet combat as they are. No particular skills are needed, just reasonable ones for the officers, so won't detail them.

Gemini

killing Onslaught (AI control)

[close]

Heron

killing Onslaught (AI control)
[close]

Mora

killing Onslaught (AI control)
[close]
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WhisperDSP

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Re: Safety Overrides Builds
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2023, 10:02:00 AM »

Perhaps the proposed nerfs on SO are making this thread a touch less-likely for posts.

I’m glad to see options for AI ships - useful for new players like myself to learn from. One thing that I’ve yet to really dig into is ships, so starter tips are appreciated.

CapnHector

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Re: Safety Overrides Builds
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2023, 08:18:27 PM »

Well, first of all you should use actual warships for SO builds. I was having a little fun here and giving others an opportunity to post say an Aurora build which might be more optimized. Second, as you can see, S-modding in Heavy Armor and Xyphos fighters are really, really strong. The Xyphos have burst PDs and hang near your ship, so they will take care of PD too, but in addition deal crippling EMP damage and the range is not limited by SO. Paired with SO this leads to the main strategy for the AI controlled ships: circle to the rear, let the Xyphos cripple the engines (and also often the cannons so return fire is reduced), kill. The other broken combo is SO + missiles (especially PCL). But SO is strong enough that a Tarsus can win the Onslaught under player control without either.

Even if building capitals that are not SO it is usually enough to give it a Xyphos and install 2 extra PD guns at most. This is mostly OP equal to installing lots of PD, gives you Ion Beams and makes your PD flux free and work even when overloaded. Not doing so is usually inferior imho.

A big tell for when a ship is not optimized or is built by a more inexperienced player is overspending on PD. A recent extreme example  I saw is putting flak in the Conquest's medium ballistic slots, which is just... bad. Those are some of the best offensive slots in the game which could be used to pressure enemies at base 1000 range, and 2 burst PD on the enemy facing side +Xyphos to cover the rear is enough PD vs even a fighter heavy and Reaper spamming Remnant Ordo. If you do stuff like that you will only get a good response out of ships where spamming PD is okay due to a surplus of OP and slots, like Onslaught. I think it would be fine to install nothing but PD on that ship and it would still do fine. This is not the case for most ships where you must not waste OP or slots and should agonize over every PD gun about whether you need it or not, and if unsure should try it without and spending the OP on something to improve combat performance instead.

I'll add that of course you should agonize over guns as well and not install unnecessary ones. To use the Conquest example, if you put tac lasers in the small energies then that will just make your big guns worse by making your flux stats worse, while the tac lasers themselves do almost nothing by comparison to your big guns, so it is a waste of OP and you should spend it on vents or hullmods to improve your ship instead. It might seem like a bargain with the tac lasers because with 4 tacs vs 1 Mjolnir you get roughly 4/5th the base DPS for 45% of the flux cost at a longer range. But when you look at it closer you will find that this damage has 1/4th the hit strength vs armor and deals soft flux, so most dangerous opponents can just dissipate it with their shields up, and no EMP either. Adding tacs will help you kill weak opponents faster but make you weaker vs strong opponents and that is a bad way to build a loadout when you were winning against the weaker opponents anyway. Ditto Graviton in the front medium energy mount (Ion Beam otoh adds EMP arcs and should be fitted there), by the way. The Conquest does not have enough OP to install and support both the tacs and Mjolnirs without ending up short on OP needed for the good hullmods and flux stats. So just install the Mjolnir and not the tacs and spend the rest to support the Mjolnirs, and I will say I am certain that the ship works better this way because I've tried to make the tacs work, too.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2023, 09:49:19 PM by CapnHector »
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TaLaR

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Re: Safety Overrides Builds
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2023, 11:48:31 PM »

Eh, officer-ed ship beating a no-officer one is old hat. As is exploiting sim Onslaught's vulnerability to rear attacks.
Doesn't really say much about SO specifically - I can do the same with any decent non-SO frigate, without character/built-in advantages.
Now doing it with some crap like Buffalo, no-officer, no story-point mods, is actually hard and I'm not sure if even doable in current version (last time I saw it done, the trick was to slow the Onslaught with nebula).
« Last Edit: March 02, 2023, 11:53:39 PM by TaLaR »
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CapnHector

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Re: Safety Overrides Builds
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2023, 01:26:45 AM »

That Buffalo challenge is seriously hard. I think it might be doable if just one S-Mod is permitted since then you can install Xyphos (that same strategy will work for the better combat ships like Phaeton too) since then you will probably win if you get past the Onslaught's shield arc. Will require a clever strategy using a nebula or asteroids or some error in AI behavior though. It might be possible with Claw in theory. I don't see how you would do it without EMP because the Onslaught has enough rearward facing firepower to destroy the Buffalo rather fast and you cannot dodge with that ship. Whoever knows how to do it, show us the way.

Just to clarify I am not in any way claiming to be a good pilot, it's rather that the ship designs are good enough that even I can win in this hallowed form of loadout testing. I play with a touchpad on a laptop.



I've been working on this challenge and it's not easy. This is the best I've done yet, dealing at least a quantity of hull damage.



With this build:



I can maneuver behind the Onslaught with this build reliably which I'm not able to do with the unofficered un-S-modded one. Specifically you must wait until you are facing the Onslaught and it starts burn driving, and then you swerve past it taking some damage but fortunately it tries to fire the Devastator at the Xyphos and you don't take that much. Unfortunately even with max defensive stats the Buffalo simply can't hang in there long enough to win. Can't block the autocannons without overloading and can't tank it all on armor either. A Warthog wing would have better offense but unfortunately they insist on circling the Onslaught and die. I suppose could try some kind of bomber still.

So anyway, if anybody has really beaten the Onslaught with a Buffalo Mk.I then I want to know about it, I'd be glad to wager $10 that at least the version TaLaR proposed of not using S-mods or an officer simply can't be done in this version.



I have spent two days' of my gaming time on this and I have not come close to killing the Onslaught with a Buffalo at all. The best I have done is something like 1/5th of the hull damage with the Xyphos build. Khopesh doesn't get there because they do not distract the Onslaught on the pass. Flash are not strong enough.

Since I couldn't find anything in the rules that forbids this, in the interests of Starsector science I hereby declare I will pay $10 to a charity of your choice or alternatively buy another copy of Starsector if you prefer, if anyone can beat a Standard Variant (with rear facing HACs and Flak) Onslaught with a Buffalo Mk1 in the sim at all in unmodded 0.95.1a, with any smods and any officer and any strategy, provided the Buffalo and Onslaught are both deployed at the start and no other ships participate.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2023, 10:17:39 AM by CapnHector »
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