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[BigBrainEnergy]

Missile Autoloader

[close]

Firstly - lets say you have a tempest with a reaper and an officer with missile spec. Does this reaper now reload 2 missiles for 2 points?

Secondly, I know this screenshot is just for demonstration purposes and the actual tooltip will be limited to whatever size class you're looking at, but wouldn't it be simpler to just give a fixed total for reload points regardless of the number of mounts? It'll still make ships like the eagle much friendlier to missiles, but ships with a large number of mounts like the eradicator will still prefer EMR. If you're worried about stacking both hullmods and getting approximately *checks calculator* one million missiles, then make them mutually exclusive. There won't be much room for more missile racks when that space is taken up by an autoloader (or vice verca).

[IonDragonX]

Missile Autoloader

[close]

Firstly - lets say you have a tempest with a reaper and an officer with missile spec. Does this reaper now reload 2 missiles for 2 points?

No. Tempest is a Frigate with 1 small missile slot. MA gives it 6 reload capacity, which is separate from ammo count, so it reloads 3 Reapers. The MS skill only adds 1 missile because that's the ammo count. Total is 5, putting it on par with a Medium Typhoon Reaper Launcher. That said, Missile Spec is wasted for 1 missile.

[Alex]

... but ships with a large number of mounts like the eradicator will still prefer EMR.

Hmm, I'm not really seeing how this could be the case. E.G. for the Eradicator with Reapers, EMR gives it 5 reapers, while Missile Autoloader - with the current maximum values - would it 7.5 (so, 8, actually).

If you toned it down to 8 reload capacity, then yeah, EMR would beat it on the Eradicator (by 1 ammo), but this would also severely tone down its impact on the Eagle - by half! Which probably means it should cost less OP - in which case, while still barely losing out to EMR on the Eradicator on pure ammo count, it would start to win out on ammo per OP spent. Etc etc.

[BigBrainEnergy]

Hmm, I'm not really seeing how this could be the case. E.G. for the Eradicator with Reapers, EMR gives it 5 reapers, while Missile Autoloader - with the current maximum values - would it 7.5 (so, 8, actually).

...maybe I need to get my "calculator" checked. Yeah, it only breaks even at 3 points per reload. Nevermind then.

[BaBosa]

Just checking, so the reload cost is the cost to reload the base amount of ammo? So for reapers it’s 1 and sabots it’s 3. EMR, missile specialisation and mod stuff that increases ammo capacity does not affect the cost or the amount reloaded?

[Alex]

It does not; the tooltip mentions this specifically It'd be a pretty busted combination if it did!

[Draba]

Hmm, I'm not really seeing how this could be the case. E.G. for the Eradicator with Reapers, EMR gives it 5 reapers, while Missile Autoloader - with the current maximum values - would it 7.5 (so, 8, actually).

If you toned it down to 8 reload capacity, then yeah, EMR would beat it on the Eradicator (by 1 ammo), but this would also severely tone down its impact on the Eagle - by half! Which probably means it should cost less OP - in which case, while still barely losing out to EMR on the Eradicator on pure ammo count, it would start to win out on ammo per OP spent. Etc etc.

Does it really need the scaling?
The absolute best case on a cruiser is getting 5 sabot or harpoon reloads, that's 15 shots with a base value of 5x4 OP, and the hullmod also costs 20 OP in the screenshot.
Expanded missile racks on a dominator can give up to 36 OP worth of medium missiles (harpoon pods), or 30 with basically anything else for the same 20 OP. On Doom/Aurora racks can go up to ~40.
In general racks on cruisers almost never give less than 20 OP equivalent.

Ofc a direct comparison is not possible: for racks you also have to buy the base missiles themselves, autoloader only gives S missiles, ...
Still, to me autoloader looks quite a bit weaker than racks so it might not need the extra constraints.

[Alex]

Does it really need the scaling?

Yes! E.G: putting a bunch of Hammers or Reapers on an Eradicator, with EMR, it still very worthwhile. 15 points of reload capacity would be substantially better than EMR in this case, and it's not a case that needs any buffs. And if you balance around that case (i.e. with a higher OP cost, or a lower reload capacity), then it goes right back to being not that useful on an Eagle/Falcon etc.

[Draba]

Does it really need the scaling?

Yes! E.G: putting a bunch of Hammers or Reapers on an Eradicator, with EMR, it still very worthwhile. 15 points of reload capacity would be substantially better than EMR in this case, and it's not a case that needs any buffs. And if you balance around that case (i.e. with a higher OP cost, or a lower reload capacity), then it goes right back to being not that useful on an Eagle/Falcon etc.

Dunno, that's basically the only cruiser case popping into mind where it can compete with racks, and 12 reapers instead of 10 on an Eradicator doesn't look that hot to me.
For destroyers with lower missile counts it's a bit more competitive ofc, but if 2xM or 1xL Manticore with racks is a thing don't think autoloader can break anything
Don't really have a strong opinion about it, just thought the scaling is a bit odd. Might get laughed at but I usually just skip missiles and pump everything into buffing AAF on Eradicators.

[Alex]

The design intent for Missile Autoloader is so that it doesn't compete with EMR - ideally, at all. If it's in the ballpark, let alone better, in cases where EMR is already quite good, it's a balance problem.

(It's 13 reapers, btw, and I wouldn't just dismiss that much extra ammo.)

For destroyers with lower missile counts it's a bit more competitive ofc

I think it's actually less competitive, just going the other way A Hammerhead with 9 reload points would get 5 reapers out of MA and 2 out of EMR, so, MA would be 2.5x better in that case.

[SonnaBanana]

Please make MA cheaper, it's not that powerful or versatile compared to EMR even as it is still useful. It shouldn't cost more than Hardened Shields.

[BaBosa]

I think MA will be pretty good as long as you don’t put it on the bad options. I think tempest will really benefit from it. Sabot with MA plus two phase lances sounds really nice. Other ships especially smaller low tech ships could really benefit from extra torpedos to finish things off.

[Draba]

The design intent for Missile Autoloader is so that it doesn't compete with EMR - ideally, at all. If it's in the ballpark, let alone better, in cases where EMR is already quite good, it's a balance problem.

(It's 13 reapers, btw, and I wouldn't just dismiss that much extra ammo.)

Don't think even unrestricted version would be comparable to the stronger cases for EMR.
In the end it boils down to 8 reaper shots for 20 OP on the Eradicator, Dominator gets 21 or Fury 14 (with 7 shots on Typhoon).

Even if you could spend 12 OP on Hammerhead for 5 reapers, it's 12 OP for 5 reapers
Ofc you do not need a slot for it, but looks like a middling to bad deal to me even unrestricted.
Hammerhead is another one of those ships that can use all the OP on guns and not miss 2 S missiles too much.

No strong feelings about autoloader on the "bad" ships so my last post about it.
Consensus is generally to not leave missile slots empty and for some reason I thought harpoon pods are 12 OP, might not be the authority here anyway

[Alex]

Don't think even unrestricted version would be comparable to the stronger cases for EMR.
In the end it boils down to 8 reaper shots for 20 OP on the Eradicator, Dominator gets 21 or Fury 14 (with 7 shots on Typhoon).

Definitely not! But I don't think that has much bearing on what I said; the high end of EMR's usefulness is basically uncapped and they don't compete there anyway, just due to slot sizes.

[BaBosa]

Hammerheads have two small missile right so won’t they only get 4 points from MA which is 2 reapers, the same as EMR?
Looking at the chart, no vanilla destroyer significantly benefits from MA.
It seems like MA is really only for a few frigates and cruisers.