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Author Topic: Starsector 0.96a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 323049 times)

Lawrence Master-blaster

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #570 on: May 03, 2023, 04:29:42 AM »

Astral has a massive OP issue, so you're actually better off with two herons/moras sometimes. At least these two can be filled with good fighters and some PD to support them (not to mention that they can actually equip good PD, unlike Astral, which doesn't have OP or any ballistic slots).

5 Heavy Burst Lasers and 8 PD Lasers is bad PD?

The thing about Astral is that it can actually do something other than launch fighter wings since it has two large missile slots. It's also easily the best carrier to flagship.

That said I wouldn't cry if it was 40 DP instead of 50 simply because anything over 40 DP is hard to fit in a typical BotB fleet.
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PotatoFarmer1

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #571 on: May 03, 2023, 04:55:35 AM »

I strongly disagree, the Heron (as) you mentioned is excellent, I can effectively use it with bombers, fighters or a mix of 'em, probably my favourite carrier.
I found that mixing bombers with fighters (outside of the [marginal] utility of a single flare launcher armed Lux or something) to be completely pointless. Ideally you would have all your fighters as either interceptors (I'm calling them that for ease of explanation) or bombers so that your carriers can immediately swap to fighter recall once ordinance has been expended so that they can be replaced/re-armed faster. Even in the ideal circumstance of hypothetically your interceptors remaining combat effective after your bombers have gone live, keeping the interceptors on engage command will ruin your bomber replacement; plus you are splitting you're effectiveness when enemy PD highly encourages you to perform coordinated alpha-strikes to punch through the PD coverage, rather than trickle in interceptors/bombers one at a time to be shot down.

Astral has a massive OP issue, so you're actually better off with two herons/moras sometimes. At least these two can be filled with good fighters and some PD to support them (not to mention that they can actually equip good PD, unlike Astral, which doesn't have OP or any ballistic slots).
I literally couldn't disagree more. Astral is pound-for-pound one of if not the best ship in the game. 2 Astrals can duo the very-redacted Doritos. Yes OP is a little tight but if you aren't building in S-mod's on this ship then on what ship are you gonna do it? I have tried every permutation on the Astral loadout and settled on 2xLongbow 2xPerdition 2xCobra as the best. the Hammer torpedo highly encourage enemies to keep their shield up and despite the Longbow having a faster flight time, the sabot pods themselves are quite slow, and the Hammers quite fast so at reasonable engagement ranges the Hammer launched from the perdition will actually catch up to the sabot and both with land at about the same time. This overloads most enemies or at least pushes so much pressure on them that the 2 Reapers that arrive moments later secure a kill on virtually everything.
On top of this the Astral has 2(!) large missile mounts that allow you to either pressure shields like crazy or send Hurricane MIRV's down range which in combination with the constant pressure from the bombers is overwhelming. I am a derelict operations + support doctrine enjoyer myself so with a bit of spamming D-mods and repairing I can frequently make 2 or 3 "perfectly D-modded" Astral's with no fighter related D-mods so my Astrals cost ~36DP. Getting the +10% fighter refit time from max CR and some more from the support skills I've found them to be quite nice ships even without officers.
If Alex makes Astral 40DP I would cry tears of joy but I would also abuse DP reducing skills even harder than I am currently doing so I hope he doesn't.

Out of curiosity what is the best interceptor loadout to use? I've experimented with seemingly everything and all the interceptors suck. Outside of the utility of EMP damage the fighters just can't kill anything, or take so bloody long to do so that it would have just been better to use bombers/torpedo-bombers. I know there are a lot of good interceptors/gunships from mods but in vanilla we don't have anything good. I thought the Warthog was supposed to be the vanilla gunship archetype but it sucks so bad that it frequently out-ranges it's own mortar shots while it is circling larger enemy ships. Please tell me what fighters you are using for the Heron? I just go with 3xCobra or Lux + 2xFlash/2xPiranha. I haven't found any vanilla interceptor to be worth using against enemy ships.

Personally i don't see the drover change as a nerf considering they would just nuke their redeployment into nothingness so they would have zero staying power
4 Reaper torpedoes would beg to differ (15 second replacement time btw).
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Iceforce

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #572 on: May 03, 2023, 05:51:27 AM »

What PotatoFarmer1 writes is true.  My current playthrough is based on a mainly Astral fleet. I intentionally tried to play only with high-tech fighters, but ran into serious problems vs tough armor, so I had to add a few bombers.
 
Fleet compostion (see attachment for skills, officers and ships) - 240DP:
  • 4 Astrals
  • 6 Shrikes (2 with officers)
  • 8 Wolves (all with officers)
In short:
  • You can do the Hypershunt fight, with minimal losses (it's hard to prevent a Wolf from dying).
  • The Ziggurat is doable with moderate losses (few Wolves and Shrikes). If you replace an Astral and some Shrikes with a Paragon to take the blunt of the damage and disable the Ziggurat with tachyon lances then you suffer no losses.
  • Single Ordos (even with multiple Radiants) are trivial.
  • Things get tricky when you run out of missiles so double Ordos are doable, but take awhile, and usually a Wolf or two die.
  • The hardest fights are 4+ Onslaughts with 6+ Dominators. In this case you have to retreat after running out of missiles, disengage, and then engage again.
  • The most annoying part is your Wolves occasionally going suicidal and dying.
  • It also sucks that if the Astral has more then one bomber, it will spam recall, which kinda of sucks if you use fighters. This doesn't happen with only one bomber though.
If Astral goes down to 40 points its gonna be really broken. I would probably go for 6 of them, which is a lot of missiles and a lot of fighters, and I suspect that this will trivialize all of the game's content.

Edit: Tried to improve the language a bit and fixed a few typos.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2023, 06:16:07 AM by Iceforce »
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Dadada

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #573 on: May 03, 2023, 05:57:31 AM »

Well, vanilla I mostly use Herons with Daggers and Longbows, but pure fighters and mixed seemed to work too, although I also, as you mentioned, find mixing bomber+fighter on carriers to be somewhat meh except for the one occasional "flare runner" or on bigger carriers with more bays, and some battle carriers are a thing of their own obviously. And you are right: the large rocket slots, ship system, large amount of bays makes the Astral excellent, put I prefer Herons as simple Dagger/Longbow carriers.

E:
If Astral goes down to 40 points its gonna be really broken
I agree, I think the ship is fine the way it is.
E2: I kinda like my carriers as in pure carriers fast so (mostly so they can avoid trouble) that's why I also gravitate to Herons. I love them.

E3: I love how everyone plays differently, I'd never install logistics mods on my warships or recovery shuttles on carriers, I like the converted hangar beam shrike with rocket oomp and the wolf, I tend to build them with much closer range in mind, cool stuff. :o ;D 8)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2023, 06:10:15 AM by Dadada »
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Princess_of_Evil

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #574 on: May 03, 2023, 06:10:36 AM »

5 Heavy Burst Lasers and 8 PD Lasers is bad PD?
Yes, five overcosted Burst PD lasers is bad PD. It actually works really well on the Astral, since it has a very good reactor and can take most missiles on its shield, and only care about fighters; but on a ship as OP-starved as Astral, i would much rather just have normal BPD in oversized slots.

To be perfectly honest, if Astral had same OP as Legion, it would be almost as good of a battlecarrier, just high tech. It could broadside with Heavy Blasters.

The thing about Astral is that it can actually do something other than launch fighter wings since it has two large missile slots. It's also easily the best carrier to flagship.
Two large missile slots are almost enough to make a pile of rusty scrap that is Atlas mk.II into a very good ship.
I'm not arguing Astral is bad, it isn't, but it's very... restricted.
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Embolism

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #575 on: May 03, 2023, 06:22:09 AM »

AstrL should lose advanced optics and gain some OP in compensation. Having it built in feels out of place and is clearly just there to be an OP tax and trap you into putting subpar beams into its slots.
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Iceforce

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #576 on: May 03, 2023, 06:30:28 AM »

E3: I love how everyone plays differently, I'd never install logistics mods on my warships or recovery shuttles on carriers, I like the converted hangar beam shrike with rocket oomp and the wolf, I tend to build them with much closer range in mind, cool stuff. :o ;D 8)

Well, currently a playthrough for me usually goes like this: make some money, get a colony ASAP, make the fleet you want, complete the story quests, test your build vs the tough encounters, survey every planet in the sector. The last part is annoying if you don't have logistics (having to go back for supplies, fuel or crew before you find the next gate).

As to Recovery shuttles, it's just another logistics mod (disguised as a combat mod).  One of the main problems that I encountered with carrier heavy fleets with a lot of fighters is that you bleed crew like crazy, thus the Fighter uplink skill and Recovery shuttles. This makes your life so much easier.

But yeah, you are right, cool stuff!  :)
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PotatoFarmer1

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #577 on: May 03, 2023, 07:16:28 AM »

What PotatoFarmer1 writes is true.  My current playthrough is based on a mainly Astral fleet. I intentionally tried to play only with high-tech fighters, but ran into serious problems vs tough armor, so I had to add a few bombers.
 
Fleet compostion (see attachment for skills, officers and ships) - 240DP:
Wow @Iceforce I love your build! Fellow Converted hanger enjoying Chad detected! Shame it's also getting nerfed in the upcoming update.
Thank you for supporting my idea! I hope you won't mind if just shoot the *** about what I would do differently with your build ;D

Firstly for your skills I would drop ordinance expertise, helmsmanship, and gunnery implants right away! I'm not sure what ship your captain is piloting but I think it should be a frigate (Wolf). I say this because really the only reason for you to pilot something as a non-combat skill build would be for the ops centre hullmod for the command point regen but you already have coordinated manoeuvres and it looks like you have more than enough officer'd frigates and destroyers to never run out of command points in battle. Your frigate would benefit from both coordinated manoeuvres and wolfpack tactics, and your buffed up officers would be far more effective in an important ship like an Astral than you would be!

Secondly I would drop electronic warfare without even thinking about it. Fighters don't benefit at all and the hardest fight in the game (the Dorito) will be so far up your a** that the +-10% range wouldn't even matter, plus I don't think EWAR has any effect on missile ranges! The other hardest enemy in vanilla is the "Wolf-like" REDACTED and that thing will also attempt to close in to like 400-700 range so ECM doesn't matter.

With the skillpoints you save I would 100% pick up sensors for it's campaign-level utility and with the remaining points I would either finish the industry tree until you get hull restoration, which tbh you don't really need since it looks like you already have max 100% CR on your ships but I would still consider it just to get rid of any D-mods you passively pick up on your suicidal frigs/destroyers; or I would go down the tech tree and pick up flux regulation to help with tanking when the REDACTED/very-REDACTED/very-very-REDACTED jump up your a** to nest for winter, and the cybernetic augmentation tree to buff up your officers even harder with 2 more elite skills each, thus making them 1 elite + 1 elite from officer training + 2 elite from cybenetics so you would have Lvl 6 max officers with 4 of 6 skills elite which is actually super powerful. In your endgame situation you should be swimming in SP so this is the best way to spend it I think!

In terms of build I like that you chose to put the Flash on the Astral since I noticed it behaves almost like a fighter by sticking around and going for multiple passes on target until it expends its ammo but in general I think the recall system is wasted on fighters, I think you could make virtually the same build but with Herons and have a much more logical build.
Also your Wolf build baffles me! Why put turret gyros on when you already have integrated point defence? Isn't it a little overkill for 3 small lasers to benefit (since the front laser is on a hardpoint not a turret mount?)
I'm not sure about the Shrike since they really suck with derelict ops but that build should actually be getting better with the next update buffing the graviton beams! I would personally go for some sort of tank ship like a Monitor which can become an absolute unkillable tank with an officer, or a Fury or Apogee or even an Aurora that you can build for max caps plus hardened shields so that it can survive the DPS of the Dorito at point-blank range. I would drop at least some of the more fragile Wolfs/Shrikes for something with tank.

Super cool build that you shared anyways! I love it! It's a shame we don't have any good fighters tbh  :'(
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Iceforce

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #578 on: May 03, 2023, 09:23:56 AM »


I realize I should have given some context to it: the whole idea was to go with a high-tech only, as carrier heavy as possible fleet, using only fighters (although the last part proved to be a bad idea, so I added some bombers).

You do need something to keep the distance between your carriers and the enemy fleet and you can either:
  • pick something to directly tank the damage;
  • or something to keep them busy while avoiding the damage.
I wanted as many fighters as possible, and the best value for small high-tech ships per DP is the Shrike, since you can add a fighter to it.
Unfortunately, due to the way elite Gunnery Implants works you also want some frigates to get enough ECM rating to beat the ECM of some of the Ordos fleets (say 15+ Alpha cores), hence the Wolves (and all the ECM thingies you see). The idea is for the Shrikes (and Wolves if possible) to have at least as much range as a Radiant (you got to beat their ECM for that). That way a couple of Shrikes with 2-3 Wolves can keep a Radiant indefinitely (well, until they run out of CR, thus the Wolfpack Tactics and Hardened Subsystems on the Wolves). I will admit though, that in 95% of situations you don't need as much ECM (currently 70%), so its probably a good idea to replace some Wolves with more Shrikes. Also, ECM does affect missiles (although this is not of much consequence)!

You are 100% correct about Ordinance Expertise. I started the build with Hull Restoration, since it is the best way to acquire D-mod free ships early on, and I had nothing better then Ordinance Expertise to pick. I did keep the Hull Restoration until quite late (until 216, I believe, current year is 220). After respecing, I kept Ordinance Expertise because it is still useful on a Paragon, and to be honest, both Field Repairs and Salvaging are kind of bad. Note that I want to keep Containment Procedures - it's stupid how useful this skill is for sector exploration. If I remove that, then I would definitely go for Cybernetic Augmentation and Flux Regulations.

As I mentioned about the Wolves - their main purpose is the ECM from elite Gunnery Implants (and the nav rating from Coordinated Maneuvers). I had no idea what else to do with them (expect wanting them to not die), so long range PD-boats they are. Tactical Lasers have Fast turn rate (unlike PD's Excellent turn rate) and it kinda of shows. They can still shoot missiles but it doesn't feel as smooth as with PD lasers. The 75% turn rate improves that by a lot (and its only 2 OP). As I stated in my original post, the Wolves still do stupid ***, but it's a lot less frequent when they have as high range as possible, can shoot down missiles, and have omni-shields. For some reason, on occasion, the Wolves keep ramming into the Astrals (which obviously raise their shields) and without omni-shileds they just die.

I was pleasantly surprised by how rarely the Shrikes die! In fact, they only die if they get into a bad position (say picking up an Eliminate order from the other side of the map and passing through the entire enemy fleet) or they get their engines disabled (I should probably have picked Hardened Shields over Heavy Armor). In fact, if you keep an eye on them and correct their positioning from time to time (don't let them get surrounded and avoid tach lances), they do not die! The AI seems to be doing rather well with 1500+ range, high speed and 360 degree shields.

I disagree about Helmsmanship though. I don't pilot any particular ship, just try to actively correct the AI's positioning, and here this skill shines, especially on slow capital ships. The thing about Support Doctrine is that your ships get the skills as long as they are not being piloted, so without Helmsmanship your ships are slower when you pilot them.

And since we are on the subject of Support Doctrine, the best strategy for carrier focused fleets seems to be to get as many squadrons as possible, which means no officers on the carriers so you can get the DP reduction. Carrier skills do offer a 1.5x multiplier for ships with officers, but they are kind of weak - none of them directly improve your fighters' damage, and you quickly reach squadron numbers that make the bonuses negligible. So the choice is between fewer fighters with no way of directly increasing their damage or more fighters (more carriers). Note that more carriers also means more fighter replacement, so the choice seems obvious. The situation sucks, but it is what it is, although I hope that something gets changed in the future.

You are also correct, that any ship that can tank (like say, 4 Monitors) makes your life a lot easier. Also, adding any frontal focused capital ship (say a Paragon or an Onslaught) will probably improve the build, but as I said in the beginning of this post, the idea was a bit different.

Anyway, thank you for the positive words, but I believe we might be getting slightly offtopic :)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2023, 09:49:15 AM by Iceforce »
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Brainwright

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #579 on: May 03, 2023, 02:10:37 PM »

Should be noted that Gremlin losing Delicate Machinery means it can now sanely fit Safety Overrides, which will be quite a lot of fun.
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Nanoelite001

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #580 on: May 03, 2023, 02:37:08 PM »

Quote
Modding:
  • Added ShipEngineAPI.repair()
  • Added "graphics" -> "fighterSkinsPlayerAndNPC" and "fighterSkinsPlayerOnly" sections to settings.json
    • Key format is: <fighter hull id>_<hull style ID>
    • For example: xyphos_LOW_TECH
    • If match for carrier's hull style is found, that sprite replaces the fighter's normal sprite
    • Otherwise, picks the one with the closest SpriteAPI.getAverageBrightColor() to the ship's sprite
    • Keys also added to "graphics" -> "fighterSkinsExcludeFromSharing" are excluded from this and only ever apply to that specific hull style

(hopefully I did the quote thing properly)
This is pretty cool, and I'm eager to see what shiny high tech mining drones might look like, but is there any chance we'll get a way to apply "faction" skins to them as well?
Like if they're launched from a diable avionics ship for example they could have the associated livery applied to it?
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #581 on: May 03, 2023, 03:12:34 PM »

This is pretty cool, and I'm eager to see what shiny high tech mining drones might look like, but is there any chance we'll get a way to apply "faction" skins to them as well?
Like if they're launched from a diable avionics ship for example they could have the associated livery applied to it?

A mod could do this, yeah!

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Big Bee

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #582 on: May 04, 2023, 01:58:03 AM »

Quote
Modding:
  • Added ShipEngineAPI.repair()
  • Added "graphics" -> "fighterSkinsPlayerAndNPC" and "fighterSkinsPlayerOnly" sections to settings.json
    • Key format is: <fighter hull id>_<hull style ID>
    • For example: xyphos_LOW_TECH
    • If match for carrier's hull style is found, that sprite replaces the fighter's normal sprite
    • Otherwise, picks the one with the closest SpriteAPI.getAverageBrightColor() to the ship's sprite
    • Keys also added to "graphics" -> "fighterSkinsExcludeFromSharing" are excluded from this and only ever apply to that specific hull style

(hopefully I did the quote thing properly)
This is pretty cool, and I'm eager to see what shiny high tech mining drones might look like, but is there any chance we'll get a way to apply "faction" skins to them as well?
Like if they're launched from a diable avionics ship for example they could have the associated livery applied to it?

oh this is so cool!
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Princess_of_Evil

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #583 on: May 04, 2023, 02:03:29 AM »

Like if they're launched from a diable avionics ship for example they could have the associated livery applied to it?
I assume it's as simple as drawing the sprites, putting them in the right place, and giving all diable ships the right tag.
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Doctorhealsgood

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Re: Starsector 0.96a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #584 on: May 04, 2023, 09:50:52 AM »

Should be noted that Gremlin losing Delicate Machinery means it can now sanely fit Safety Overrides, which will be quite a lot of fun.
Could you imagine if the LP gremlin came with SO built in? Scary.
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