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Author Topic: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs  (Read 14258 times)

Alex

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2023, 02:02:18 PM »

Great idea, made a note!
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Wyvern

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2023, 02:07:43 PM »

If it's not already in the dev build, giving Dedicated Targeting Core's an s-mod bonus of +5/10% range (so it matches ITU) is a great QoL boon for if you get cruisers earlier on before you find ITU, since it lets you smod in a range bonus without it potentially being a permanent downgrade
I'd almost rather see it get some other small bonus for being s-modded - maybe 15% reduced recoil or 10% increased projectile speed - just so that it's not a complete clone of ITU (and so that finding that rare ITU modspec is still exciting.)

But you're right that it should definitely get something.
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Pratapon51

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2023, 02:50:43 PM »

If it's not already in the dev build, giving Dedicated Targeting Core's an s-mod bonus of +5/10% range (so it matches ITU) is a great QoL boon for if you get cruisers earlier on before you find ITU, since it lets you smod in a range bonus without it potentially being a permanent downgrade
I'd almost rather see it get some other small bonus for being s-modded - maybe 15% reduced recoil or 10% increased projectile speed - just so that it's not a complete clone of ITU (and so that finding that rare ITU modspec is still exciting.)

But you're right that it should definitely get something.

It would be, if you weren't able to take Ballistic Mastery to immediately get it! And you can refund the pick immediately, too, for SP.  ;D
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Amazigh

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2023, 03:05:21 PM »

If it's not already in the dev build, giving Dedicated Targeting Core's an s-mod bonus of +5/10% range (so it matches ITU) is a great QoL boon for if you get cruisers earlier on before you find ITU, since it lets you smod in a range bonus without it potentially being a permanent downgrade
I'd almost rather see it get some other small bonus for being s-modded - maybe 15% reduced recoil or 10% increased projectile speed - just so that it's not a complete clone of ITU (and so that finding that rare ITU modspec is still exciting.)

But you're right that it should definitely get something.

Yeah, if DTC gave something different to ITU when s-modded that would be neat, and would save the annoyance of salvaging a ship with s-mods, and then "oh no it has DTC s-modded, what a waste"
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SonnaBanana

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2023, 05:51:20 PM »

Thanks for replying Alex, now fix EWM CA NI!  :P
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braciszek

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2023, 11:23:19 PM »

My only annoyance with smod EMR RoF nerf is that it is terribly biased. Missiles with long base cooldowns will likely run out of ppt first before some ships can reasonably fire off all of the ammo. The cyclone reaper is not really an impressive weapon, especially in AI hands, and it takes a long time to shoot between barrages. Taking even longer to shoot is criminal, and it's a weapon that needs greater incentive to be used compared to alternatives, not fewer. Sucks to be a bad weapon, I suppose.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 02:15:19 PM by braciszek »
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Jackundor

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #66 on: January 07, 2023, 02:57:54 AM »

The penalty is a bit higher (25%) and moved entirely to the s-mod effect :)
rn heavy armor penalty is 10%, right? increasing that to 2.5 times of the original is more than "a bit higher"... and the ships that benefit from HA thr most already struggle with manouverability... it feels liable to making Aux thrusters a mandatory bundle with HA, lest you be unable to turn at all...

and about the rof debuff for EMR... it feels entirely wrong... i am of the opinion that for the rof debuff to be acceptable, it would have either have go be made completely insignificant -thus removing the point of introducing it in the first place- or be replaced by a completely different debuff.

in feels entirely counterintuitive in two ways:

firstly it makes it so that the mod that makes your missile weapons have ammo for mote of the fight will now last even longer at the cost of dps, risking that the fight is over (or the ship runs out of ppt) before being able to make use of the missiles

and secondly, it makes it so that on the ships where you'd intuitively want to build it in the most, it would be a very bad choice. Smods are for the most important and impactful hullmods in a build, right? now let's say we have a ship that relies on missiles as it's primary armament but doesn't come with EMR built in as stock, like a gryphon with no emr and 20 more OP.

Now, for a missile specialized ship building in missile hullmods should make a lot of sense, right? but if you build in EMR, you would give a giant gut punch to the primary offensive capabilities of your ship, so that would be a dumb decision and you'd always just pay for EMR with OP. you'd only build in EMR on ships where missiles aren't your primary weapons system, which is rather counterintuitive

also, the "middle ground" for hullmod op cost this system is intended to balance around is 25 OP (at capital size), right? EMR is 30 OP. Why is a 33% debuff to such an important stat as rof for a hullmod that is 5 OP over the middle ground even remotely acceptable? like, other people have said, "building in a 25 op hullmod instead of EMR is equivalent to a 15 OP hullmod that boosts missile rof by 50%" which "might be more interesting" but 1. i disagree that that wouldn't be a no brainer in most circumstances but more importanly 2. is wrong bc it would be the equivalent of a 5 op hullmod

overall a debuff this severe to a stat this important feels just completely out of whack
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 03:00:36 AM by Jackundor »
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BaBosa

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #67 on: January 07, 2023, 04:05:02 AM »

I find all the people complaining bitterly about the nerfs for a few s-mod funny. As was just pointed out, it’s basically just a small OP nerf if you have another hullmod to build in so why are you guys getting so worked up. If I remember correctly, Alex just threw in s-mods spontaneously when he introduced story points, so it’s not surprising it needed some balancing.

As for the few complaining about this taking up dev time, it wasn’t much time but I also suspect that this might be the clean up update before Alex tackles the command tab and allowing some multi fleet action. I don’t see any other big things for the next update.
This would also likely give some competitive options for story points so they’re not mostly just for s-mods.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 04:10:38 AM by BaBosa »
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vladokapuh

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2023, 04:57:04 AM »

problem we see is that it might mostly hurt the ships that already require a lot of stuff (hullmods, officers) to work, but not touch many others that dont
eg dominator is getting a noticeable nerf, but gryphon is not
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Cabbage

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #69 on: January 07, 2023, 05:04:38 AM »

Suggestion:  Apply the s-mod penalty to Heavy Armor only if the ship has shields (or maybe phase cloak).  Ships without shields or phase cloak need Heavy Armor (and every armor booster skill) to last long enough in a fight.
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Schwartz

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2023, 05:54:56 AM »

S-Mods may have been a spontaneous addition, but they also almost entirely replaced the OP bonuses that we used to get through player fleet skills before. As such they were a required addition to give the player some breathing room in loadouts, and any tinkering with them will impact the power of the player fleet - not so much that of enemy fleets. Player fleet power is already reduced vs. previous game versions. I am not against nerfs - but I am against nerfs to player enjoyment where the gain to me is not immediately obvious. "Less fun but more flavor" is not a gain, to me. And as someone who likes to use high-ammo missiles like Locusts and Annihilators the most, and uses them in conjunction with ammo bonuses so they can last through or close to your average big fleet engagement, this S-Mod malus lands exactly in a spot where I wouldn't want it to land.

It's not a "well, now that this S-Mod is worse you can spend your OP elsewhere so why cry", it's a devaluing of a hullmod that did not need it. Here's another quick take: Make Extended Missile Racks just cost less OP and remove the S-Mod nerf.

Do I think it should cost less OP? No, it's fine where it is. This is just a silly take on "Everyone S-Mods this because of its OP cost".
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 06:25:08 AM by Schwartz »
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McTrigger

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2023, 09:18:29 AM »

I like the idea and hope Alex sticks to his guns. Otherwise its just a boring non-choice on which smod to use.

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Hiruma Kai

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #72 on: January 07, 2023, 10:01:22 AM »

Well, I know what the first s-mod I'm building in for the early game flagship is.  I'll take a +25% damage bonus against nearly the entire enemy fleet. :)

Anyways, the way I view this, and the better deserved s-mods, is not a change of the original hullmods, but rather introducing an entirely new set of hullmods that have a different resource cost (s-mod slots instead of OP).  Especially when you provide bonuses that you simply cannot duplicate with OP.  That are not allowed to stack in the same way Integrated Targeting Unit and Dedicated Targeting Core are not allowed to stack. Those unique bonuses are going to cause competition with hullmods that do not provide additional benefits, irregardless of the OP differences.

I also tend to like to look at how things impact the entire build, as opposed to taking things in isolation.  Which leads to me want to rephrase the penalties some of these new s-mod hullmods are getting as a bonus for the OP costing hullmods instead.

So I'm wondering, is a +100% or it sounds like potentially now just an increased +50% missile rate of fire worth 5 DP on a cruiser or capital?  That kind of DPS difference is like a capstone combat skill all in itself.  Those are some pretty big DPS increases for pretty cheap, for otherwise identically fit ships.  I mean, compare to the Graviton beam's +5% to shield effect.  For less than the price of a Graviton beam, I can get 50% more flux free missile pressure, as long as they last compared to the other ship.  Sounds like this more traditional OP costing hullmod is a much, much better deal than this new s-mod slot costing hullmod.  My question is, how much of a missile DPS buff should 5 OP buy you on a capital or cruiser.  Given most damage buffs are pretty small shifts, like the +10% for Scattered Amplifier, or +5-10% from the Graviton beams, or the +10% from Ballistic Mastery.  I feel like spending 5 OP should at most buy you that much on a capital, not 50%.  Even the 15 DP difference from the advanced turret gyro presented here is a mere 25% against certain targets.

Unless the ships have a small missile loadout (i.e. Paragon), I don't see how such large differences in DPS could be balanced between similar fits.  Personally, I think a 10% shift in DPS (so more like -10% instead of -33%) would be more in line with the what the rest of the game numbers typically look like for DPS differences between identical ships with different hull mods.  Assuming you keep the disadvantage at all.  Depending on the uniqueness of these new s-mod slot hullmod bonuses, it's possible the OP savings won't be worth it relative to some other benefits.

The +25% maneuverability buff for the traditional OP Heavy Armor compared to the s-mod slot Heavy Armor is at least in the ballpark, given 15 OP is about 60% of a the Auxilliary Thrusters hullmod OP cost on a capital, which is a +50% bonus.

On a side note, if you're looking to nerf missiles overall, then applying a rate of fire penalty to both the OP costing expanded missile racks and the s-mod slot version would make more sense than just the s-mod version, perhaps with an OP cost decrease.  At which point EMR becomes more of a tradeoff hullmod like Unstable Injector.  More speed and less range.  While EMR would be more sustain, less DPS (although more overall damage in the long run, but less good at bursting down shields/armor).
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SapphireSage

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2023, 10:05:48 AM »

Actually, as a quick thought. Would we be able to see the S-mod bonuses/penalties when hovering over the hullmods in the add/remove hullmods screen as part of their tooltip? Its typically where I'm thinking about hullmods in a S-modding sense and being able to see that info in the same screen as where I'm able to see their benefits and OP in the first place would be really helpful in decision making over whether or not I would want to S-mod it in for hullmods I don't have in my current build. Especially as we're getting into the territory of more complex hullmods, such that it took me a few rereads of Ballistic Rangefinder to discover that it was actually completely useless with my Legion build (mediums are composites and all my smalls were vulcans) and now with the new Missile Autoloader adding to that complexity as well.
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Shinr

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Re: I don't like the idea of build-in hull mods debuffs
« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2023, 10:15:48 AM »

Actually, as a quick thought. Would we be able to see the S-mod bonuses/penalties when hovering over the hullmods in the add/remove hullmods screen as part of their tooltip?

The twitter teaser picture shows that the hullmod tooltip description includes the s-mod changes, and I'm quite certain that you don't need to go into s-mod menu or s-mod the hullmod beforehand for that to show up, just like in the gamemod that inspired this mechanic.
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