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Author Topic: realism  (Read 4243 times)

BigBrainEnergy

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Re: realism
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2022, 02:12:14 PM »

For realism we have ships coming in, firing off Anime levels of missiles, shooting down enemy missiles, shooting lasers at each other, and massed hangar units dominating the skies. Between the fleets is a no-man's land of hangar units and missiles crisscrossed with lasers. Offensive ballistics would be the god weapons at close range that pierce through entire ships and run down a column of ships dealing massive damage.

So, Starsector doesn't make realistic sense. It doesn't need to. It is a game. The design of how combat and trading works has evolved to be more fun to play.

Oddly enough, you can do something that is an approximation of realism with Mora mono-fleets. They're insanely deadly. I've tried them with massed reapers. I just tested them with massed Pila, and they're taking down 5 star remnant fleets more easily than with torpedoes.
Gonna disagree on one thing here, fighters are not at all realistic without pulling some shenanigans in the rules of your setting. To quote tv tropes:

Spoiler
While there are advantages as well as disadvantages to space fighters when directly compared to larger ships, a good look at the concept from the very base upwards is necessary. The first question shouldn't be "What advantage does a fighter have over a big ship?" but "What can a space fighter do?" Because we're talking about military ships here, the answer is generally to bring some sort of weapon payload (bullets, lasers, blaster bolts, missiles, bombs) in contact with a target. But the conditions of combat in space make fighters pointless for that. On planet, fighters are needed to extend the range of whatever deploys them (an airforce base or a carrier). If the base were to shoot the guns or the missiles that a fighter carries directly, it wouldn't have nearly the range that a fighter can achieve. The horizon on planet prevents direct targeting beyond a limited range. The friction of the air slows down bullets and missiles so they drop to the ground short of the target when they have been slowed down enough or their fuel has run out respectively. The engines and shape of an fighter allow far more efficient travel in atmosphere than those of a missile (or bomb or bullet).

Not so in space. There is no horizon, so everything can be targeted directly. There is no friction, so ranges are not limited. There is no need for aerodynamic design, so missiles are far more effective than fighters. For comparison: if one were to use a missile that is the same size as the fighter i.e. using the same engine and same amount of fuel, it would have four times the range of a fighter, because the fighters needs a lot of fuel to brake and return to base again (and this is before you take into account the fact that using a missile instead of a fighter also frees up space that would be otherwise taken by the pilot and whatever equipment he needs to both stay alive and control his craft). So, unlike in an atmosphere, where mounting missiles on a fighter extends the effective range of the warheads, in space it would seriously limit it.

As for guns, those are even less effective. Unless there is some sort of magical technology at play that makes 5 tons of gun components, propellant and bullets somehow capable of more destruction than just 5 tons of warhead (not the case with real physics) then carrying a small gun close to a target to shoot it is a colossal waste of time.

Targeting is another thing that potentially looks like a reason for fighters to exist. But it is again not the case. Getting closer to the target does exactly the same thing as using a bigger lens (because there is no horizon) so the bigger lens wins. (It does not get closer to danger, doesn't need refuelling, etc.)

Intercepting incoming missiles works pretty much the same as launching attacking missiles, and attaching a space fighter makes it worse, not better. For that matter, anything that can destroy an incoming missile will probably be just as effective against a fighter, too.

In the end, while one can point out plenty of advantages that a space fighter has over a larger ship (in a universe with real physics), there just is no task that a space fighter is best suited to perform. Either a bigger ship will outperform several small fighters, or one or several missiles will outperform one fighter.
[close]

So if anything, the most realistic you can get in starsector is gryphon spam ;D
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 02:19:06 PM by BigBrainEnergy »
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Thaago

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Re: realism
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2022, 03:32:13 PM »

Same thing unfortunately with lasers: there are a ton of problems that make them impractical as main armaments.

The minimum dispersion of gaussian beams means that the emitting lenses need to be big (think tens of meters) in order to focus energy onto a target. This not only takes lots of mass and surface area, but lenses are almost by definition fragile and every scratch/pit/nick on them degrades the weapon effectiveness severely. If the lens were slightly damaged and its absorption increased, it would explode.

The heat buildup of firing lasers that could cut through/blow up a ship would almost by definition be extremely hard to manage. Using disposable lasers where the heat is ejected in the disposable part very shortly after firing is a possible solution, but if you have a portable laser system such as a bomb pumped xray laser, that could most likely be mounted on a missile.

Finally, powerful lasers are somewhat easy to defeat: a cloud of absorptive gas and/or a wipple shield, not to mention armor designed to turn into a cloud of absorptive plasma on superheating, would all severely degrade energy transfer.

That said, lasers have the extreme benefit of speed of light travel, so they would be good in close range, lower powered applications: point defense vs incoming missiles.

For realism we have ships coming in, firing off Anime levels of missiles, shooting down enemy missiles, shooting lasers at each other, and massed hangar units dominating the skies. Between the fleets is a no-man's land of hangar units and missiles crisscrossed with lasers. Offensive ballistics would be the god weapons at close range that pierce through entire ships and run down a column of ships dealing massive damage.

So, Starsector doesn't make realistic sense. It doesn't need to. It is a game. The design of how combat and trading works has evolved to be more fun to play.

Oddly enough, you can do something that is an approximation of realism with Mora mono-fleets. They're insanely deadly. I've tried them with massed reapers. I just tested them with massed Pila, and they're taking down 5 star remnant fleets more easily than with torpedoes.
Gonna disagree on one thing here, fighters are not at all realistic without pulling some shenanigans in the rules of your setting. To quote tv tropes:

Spoiler
While there are advantages as well as disadvantages to space fighters when directly compared to larger ships, a good look at the concept from the very base upwards is necessary. The first question shouldn't be "What advantage does a fighter have over a big ship?" but "What can a space fighter do?" Because we're talking about military ships here, the answer is generally to bring some sort of weapon payload (bullets, lasers, blaster bolts, missiles, bombs) in contact with a target. But the conditions of combat in space make fighters pointless for that. On planet, fighters are needed to extend the range of whatever deploys them (an airforce base or a carrier). If the base were to shoot the guns or the missiles that a fighter carries directly, it wouldn't have nearly the range that a fighter can achieve. The horizon on planet prevents direct targeting beyond a limited range. The friction of the air slows down bullets and missiles so they drop to the ground short of the target when they have been slowed down enough or their fuel has run out respectively. The engines and shape of an fighter allow far more efficient travel in atmosphere than those of a missile (or bomb or bullet).

Not so in space. There is no horizon, so everything can be targeted directly. There is no friction, so ranges are not limited. There is no need for aerodynamic design, so missiles are far more effective than fighters. For comparison: if one were to use a missile that is the same size as the fighter i.e. using the same engine and same amount of fuel, it would have four times the range of a fighter, because the fighters needs a lot of fuel to brake and return to base again (and this is before you take into account the fact that using a missile instead of a fighter also frees up space that would be otherwise taken by the pilot and whatever equipment he needs to both stay alive and control his craft). So, unlike in an atmosphere, where mounting missiles on a fighter extends the effective range of the warheads, in space it would seriously limit it.

As for guns, those are even less effective. Unless there is some sort of magical technology at play that makes 5 tons of gun components, propellant and bullets somehow capable of more destruction than just 5 tons of warhead (not the case with real physics) then carrying a small gun close to a target to shoot it is a colossal waste of time.

Targeting is another thing that potentially looks like a reason for fighters to exist. But it is again not the case. Getting closer to the target does exactly the same thing as using a bigger lens (because there is no horizon) so the bigger lens wins. (It does not get closer to danger, doesn't need refuelling, etc.)

Intercepting incoming missiles works pretty much the same as launching attacking missiles, and attaching a space fighter makes it worse, not better. For that matter, anything that can destroy an incoming missile will probably be just as effective against a fighter, too.

In the end, while one can point out plenty of advantages that a space fighter has over a larger ship (in a universe with real physics), there just is no task that a space fighter is best suited to perform. Either a bigger ship will outperform several small fighters, or one or several missiles will outperform one fighter.
[close]

So if anything, the most realistic you can get in starsector is gryphon spam ;D

This is somewhat true, but the person writing that quote was unimaginative in terms of useful things for a drone to do and also got their physics wrong on a few things. Here are a few uses for drones/loitering missiles/reusable stages:

1) in mid flight (as opposed to terminal approach) evasive action a missile takes is wasted dV, so wasted range and less velocity when getting into firing range (so more time available for PD to shoot it down). So it would be beneficial to have small craft between the place where humans are mothership is and the place where the missiles are coming from, both to shoot the missiles down early but also to force them to evade and/or use countermeasures (defense in depth). The small craft does not need extreme dV itself: it just wants to get in the line of fire and stop, so it makes sense to have a reusable high efficiency engine and powerful/expensive targeting system rather than a throwaway system, if possible (though it wouldn't be manned). The armament of the small craft/drone could be anti-missile missiles, lasers, or something else, but it all benefits from a closer launcher/targeter.

2) active sensors. While undetectable stealth is impossible in space, obscurement via ECM or other means is not: fooling the targeting sensors of missiles via various approaches would be critical to warfare! However, its really hard to obscure your ships when its blasting out radar waves (or whatever other active sensor emission). So put them on drones! But they are all expensive, so you want them to be recoverable if possible. Getting those drones to be spread out also helps.

3) passive sensors. The maximum resolution of a telescope/antenna is dictated by its diameter; however, that doesn't have to be filled diameter when multiple detectors are combined interferometrically. So launch drones with detectors on them and network it all together.

4) This one is more setting dependent: if different levels of engine tech have different delta V/thrust capabilities but are also different levels of expensive/size, then a recoverable 1st stage for primary missile armaments would be desirable.

For example, what if practical fusion torch engines are big and expensive? To me that would imply that a "missile" would be best built as a 2 stage device: a first stage fusion torch drone that accelerates the warheads, and then a second (multistage potentially) chemical rocket for each warhead that does final homing and approach, and then either does a contact detonation of fires a one use bomb pumped laser. The first stage fusion torch would have 2 modes of operation: long range, where it accelerates all the way to maximum speed before firing off the second stage: this would sacrifice the expensive fusion drive, but give better range and velocity. Or a mode where it releases the second stage at ~45% velocity, then come back to the mothership at ~10% velocity (with 45% spent stopping): this is lower performance but saves the first stage for later launches.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: realism
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2022, 03:51:51 PM »

Oh yeah, the quote was pulled from a very large post concerning all the challenges space fighters in the real world, as well as some potential uses for them depending on the rules of your setting. The points you listed are good reasons for drones to exist, but they would still be limited to detection and pd based roles. In the real world, attack craft don't make much sense, especially not with a human pilot.

Unless electronic warfare gets so advanced that drones become unreliable, human pilots are a god awful idea. Even then the role of the fighter has to be so important that it's worth the extra cost and degraded performance that comes with designing them for human operation. And even then humans today are pretty reliant on their computers to run spacecraft so you would have to design something that can't be interfered with in the same way as the drones.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: realism
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2022, 05:13:56 PM »

Another thought about range in space:

Pointing requirements are still very different at different ranges. At super long range, you need to be insanely precise to hit something with an unguided projectile or laser (and if your orbital dynamics and perturbation modeling isn't perfect, you might miss anyway), while at closer range, that would be much easier to achieve. There's a reason why we do a bunch of correction burns on most missions in space.
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Thaago

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Re: realism
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2022, 10:46:30 PM »

Thats very true! Any kind of direct fire weapon (like a laser or unguided slug) at those ranges would need such accuracy that weapon mounts would need insanely precise rotation control. Its not impossible but it would be very difficult thats for sure.

Personally I think there would be a spectrum of "missiles", from what we recognize today as a missile with a long burn time all the way to a railgun round that mostly coasts has a terminal guidance burn of a few seconds to get it on target. No matter what at long range there needs to be some type of guidance (and guidance can get fooled!).
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Igncom1

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Re: realism
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2022, 11:27:13 PM »

When it comes to fighters, unlike down here on earth where you have boats in water, submarines under, and aircraft in the air rather then water above.

Space is just space. So a space fighter is more like a skiff with a naval gun attached then a F-35.

And we certainly have had success with torpedo boats for shore defence, but largely ship battles don't have lots of torpedo boat carriers but involve gun battles between ships due to the ranges involved. With larger ships like destroyers or cruisers packing torpedoes of their own to do the job of torpedo boats.

So in that essence space fighters don't make a lot of sense to be the main stay of your space fleets.

Of course that is before we get into the issues that space travel is more like being in a plane then a ship so if anything we should ONLY have space fighters and not battleships. But perhaps I am digging too far into stuff that I already wasn't qualified to discuss  ;D
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: realism
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2022, 11:36:21 PM »

To be honest it would be pretty cool to have a space combat game where ships are firing long range guided weapons at each other while trying to dodge/fool incoming projectiles and deploying drones to track the enemy ship with greater precision and relay that information for more accurate shots. The drones themselves only need to operate for a short time so heat trapping could be an option for letting them approach relatively close before getting detected, which would then mean you also need drones searching the space around your ship to find and counter their drones.

Of course that is before we get into the issues that space travel is more like being in a plane then a ship so if anything we should ONLY have space fighters and not battleships. But perhaps I am digging too far into stuff that I already wasn't qualified to discuss  ;D
That's certainly another feasible future, if it only takes a couple crew to operate a ship and it only takes 1 or 2 shots to disable a ship regardless of size or armour then there would only be fighters. Even today battleships have been phased out because armour can't sufficiently protect them from bombers or missiles, so instead we have a "real world meta" of carriers, missile boats, and point defense. Well that and naval guns have far too limited range to compete with missiles, but anyways the point is that bigger space ships are no good if a single hull breach is a big deal.
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keckles

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Re: realism
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2022, 12:35:44 AM »

If we're talking realism, space combat would involve radar so using fighters which would have a much smaller cross section would make it a lot easier to deliver stealth torpedo strikes. There's also range and turret traverses: fighters would also enjoy greater range than within an atmosphere just as large vessels do, firing from closer than their host carriers but still from a great distance, meanwhile larger vessels would struggle to lock them up with fire control radars, let alone have fine enough turret traverses to hit something that small moving so quickly with such a weak radar return.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: realism
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2022, 07:00:27 AM »

If we're talking realism, space combat would involve radar so using fighters which would have a much smaller cross section would make it a lot easier to deliver stealth torpedo strikes. There's also range and turret traverses: fighters would also enjoy greater range than within an atmosphere just as large vessels do, firing from closer than their host carriers but still from a great distance, meanwhile larger vessels would struggle to lock them up with fire control radars, let alone have fine enough turret traverses to hit something that small moving so quickly with such a weak radar return.
Stealth in space is a lot different from on a planet. The main thing you need to hide isn't your radar cross section, it's thermal emissions, which as it turns out is really hard to do in space.
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Thaago

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Re: realism
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2022, 09:17:24 AM »

Basically anything with an active engine cannot hide (except for cold gas thrusters but their thrust levels and dV are really low with current or near future technology). Any missile that is burning for example is effectively transmitting its location and velocity at all times (and if the engine is understood, its also transmitting its mass).

It's part of the reason I mentioned railgun rounds with just terminal guidance as a practical weapon system: while the thermal bloom of them firing would be easily seen (especially if the launching craft is using something like ablative regenerating rails to expel the waste heat of each shot) it might not be enough to determine trajectory with any accuracy and so the rounds would be "stealthy" on approach. Not impossible to see: even though the things are relatively small radar could potentially see them (enter electronic warfare/radar jamming/spoofing etc). Once the rounds do a correction burn their trajectory will be locked in, but at that point they are on final approach so there isn't much time left to intercept them.
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SafariJohn

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Re: realism
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2022, 09:44:25 AM »

I recall building ships in Aurora one time that were basically just flying pinecones of tiny quad gauss turrets. Hilariously bad hit rates, but it didn't matter because there were so many that they could blow down missiles and rip through primitive laser-armed ships. Stopped playing that spreadsheet simulator before I ever saw how they did later in the game, though.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: realism
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2022, 10:12:09 AM »

I think theoretically, you could have an insanely long nozzle that expands the exhaust and decreases the temperature a ton.
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Goumindong

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Re: realism
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2022, 11:02:58 AM »

No. Since you will see it in net.

1) in mid flight (as opposed to terminal approach) evasive action a missile takes is wasted dV, so wasted range and less velocity when getting into firing range (so more time available for PD to shoot it down). So it would be beneficial to have small craft between the place where humans are mothership is and the place where the missiles are coming from, both to shoot the missiles down early but also to force them to evade and/or use countermeasures (defense in depth)

Unfortunately any evasive action a fighter or drone takes also is wasted dV so wasted range and less velocity when getting into firing range.

There is no aspect of a fighter that makes sense in space. A missile is just more effective. It can carry all the sensors and use just as efficient a drive system.

You may have drones for point defense but you can probably use lasers for that.

——

Anyway. The size of ships in space is likely to be “medium” sized. The actual limitations are twofold

1) bigger is better always. In terms of weapon, mass, and defensive efficiency due to the square cube/law.

2) except for rotating. Unlike normal acceleration rotational velocity is constant acceleration and is magnified by the distance from the rotational point. So rotating a large object requires material strength proportional to the length of the ship. This will be true for any ship that isn’t so large it’s core collapses into a hunk of molten metal.

3) the primary drive is going to be axial so your maneuverability is defined by the speed at which you can rotate the ship. Additionally since you will almost always want to point the smallest cross section towards the enemy ships are likely to be tubes rather than spheres.

Thus the optimal ship size is “just small enough to have to maneuverability profile that we want given our material strength but otherwise as large as possible”

Small ships don’t make sense because you lose space to armor and other necessities.
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Draba

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Re: realism
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2022, 11:29:31 AM »

If any ship gets destroyed by a single hit of turbofusionantimatter projectiles or deathbeams then 10 small ships are better than 1 big one.
Being tiny might even help with getting hit less often.
Didn't see that mentioned, could be a reason for using smaller ships.
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Thaago

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Re: realism
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2022, 11:47:22 AM »

...

Errr you seem to have ignored/misunderstood my whole point there. The drones I'm talking about never attack an enemy major combatant/ship, nor do they want to, or even get close to them: they want to make the space between major combatants a more difficult place for the real weapons (missiles of some sort/terminal guidance projectiles) to exist in, either by wasting their fuel with evasive actions or preemptively locating and shooting them down. They don't need lots of dV to do that: just enough to loiter and keep up with the main ship maneuvers. With lasers being so short ranged (in space combat terms) and potential missile warheads like bomb pulsed xray lasers having quite a long range itself while not needing to worry about heat issues (as its 1 use/exploding), having active interdiction drones seems like a good idea! Not to mention all the other uses I pointed out.

---

Point 1 has a serious problem: heat. The practicality of cooling a ship goes down sharply as its size increases, especially if that ship is doing things that are hot like firing weapons and riding giant plumes of fire.

In terms of defense, surface area/volume ratio only matters if armor matters, which is highly dependent on how future technology develops, but it honestly isn't looking good for armor. Heavy armor is already obsolete in modern warfare when it comes to naval engagements; whether the analogy holds in space warfare is an open question depending on tech. I suspect yes: it is far easier to scale up a missile to penetrate a given amount of armor than it is to scale up armor, to the point where without some revolution in materials science I don't see how armor can compete. There might be some balance of light armor vs "shotgun" style weapons I'll admit.

Cross sectional area matters somewhat and in that case a larger ship has an advantage in terms of amount of equipment brought to bear vs exposed size. However, that in turn depends a lot on the guidance/accuracy of weapons. For unguided projectiles its critical; for missiles and terminal guidance projectiles? A lot less critical, depending on the ratio of weapon maneuverability vs ship maneuverability (which is heavily in favor of the weapon). I think that active countermeasures and ECM/spoofing are going to matter a lot more than putting the nose to the enemy.

Point 2 is accurate! But at the same time, the most efficient and strongest shape for rotating quickly would be a sphere.

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