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Author Topic: Does combat XP gain need adjustments?  (Read 3346 times)

BCS

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Does combat XP gain need adjustments?
« on: August 22, 2022, 08:12:11 AM »

Once you reach the endgame the only limited resource is Story Points. The best way to generate SP is with combat XP. The amount of XP you get from combat is based on relative strengths of your and enemy fleets, officers included.

This leads to a situation where the most optimal way to farm XP is by not having any officers at all since they increase relative fleet strength and therefore significantly lower your XP gain, and the more and better officers you have the worse it gets. Instead you should just spam Brawler LPs(and/or carriers, since without officers the Leadership skill line will naturally push you towards them) with Support Doctrine.

Personally I wouldn't mind if the whole "more XP based on relative fleet strength" mechanic was completely removed since IMO it does more harm than good. I'd rather race to the top than to the bottom.
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FooF

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Re: Does combat XP gain need adjustments?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2022, 08:54:46 AM »

Does having officers (but not assigned to ships) affect your fleet strength? I.e. I could just remove officers to increase the challenge but not get rid of them. Likewise, if I have a stronger fleet but only deploy a few ships, do I get relatively more XP?

I guess the game is trying to incentivize challenge rather than face rolling the keyboard to victory.
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Alex

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Re: Does combat XP gain need adjustments?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2022, 08:57:58 AM »

FWIW, I do have a todo item to reduce the impact of player-side officers on this calculation. Other than that, though, I think it should be producing generally desirable results - unless I'm missing something?
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Does combat XP gain need adjustments?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2022, 09:17:37 AM »

Does having officers (but not assigned to ships) affect your fleet strength? I.e. I could just remove officers to increase the challenge but not get rid of them. Likewise, if I have a stronger fleet but only deploy a few ships, do I get relatively more XP?

I guess the game is trying to incentivize challenge rather than face rolling the keyboard to victory.
Fleet strength is based on what is in your fleet, not what you deploy, so there is no benefit to deploying less or taking officers out of ships. To cheese it, you have to completely fire the officers.
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robepriority

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Re: Does combat XP gain need adjustments?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2022, 09:29:45 AM »

IMO there should be further xp gain multipliers as you stack up bonus xp - having to burn through bonus xp once you hit cap is pretty daunting.

Megas

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Re: Does combat XP gain need adjustments?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2022, 09:39:19 AM »

Once you reach the endgame the only limited resource is Story Points. The best way to generate SP is with combat XP. The amount of XP you get from combat is based on relative strengths of your and enemy fleets, officers included.

This leads to a situation where the most optimal way to farm XP is by not having any officers at all since they increase relative fleet strength and therefore significantly lower your XP gain, and the more and better officers you have the worse it gets. Instead you should just spam Brawler LPs(and/or carriers, since without officers the Leadership skill line will naturally push you towards them) with Support Doctrine.

Personally I wouldn't mind if the whole "more XP based on relative fleet strength" mechanic was completely removed since IMO it does more harm than good. I'd rather race to the top than to the bottom.
Unless I fight double+ Ordos, eventually, my fleet eventually ends up being solo Ziggurat (plus few civvies up to 100 DP fleet) to maximize bonus xp.  I would like to use other fleet configurations, but the bonus xp is not high enough unless the fight is double Ordos.

I prefer bonus XP removed entirely and base xp gain say... quadrupled (or xp required to level quartered).
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Does combat XP gain need adjustments?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2022, 09:45:18 AM »

IMO the bonus is way too large. 400-500% is way too painful to ignore so you are overly incentivized into a small subset of cheesy strategies that can achieve that.
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Megas

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Re: Does combat XP gain need adjustments?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2022, 09:53:04 AM »

While I have considered Support Doctrine, getting that skill means giving up Hull Restoration and I really do not want to give up Hull Restoration because it is a massive QoL skill that removes a lot of frustration from casualties.

I guess I could get rid of Combat instead of Industry, but if I did that, I would never want to pilot my flagship because it is too sluggish without some Combat skills, and I would go play another space game with better responsive ship.
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Megas

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Re: Does combat XP gain need adjustments?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2022, 10:03:17 AM »

IMO the bonus is way too large. 400-500% is way too painful to ignore so you are overly incentivized into a small subset of cheesy strategies that can achieve that.
It does not help that xp gain (for story points) at max level is only acceptable when the bonus is that high.  Anything less is way too slow for working off accumulated bonus xp debt (or getting more story points to feed 2^n costs of colony development or at least s-mods for more than a hundred ships in storage).
« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 10:05:38 AM by Megas »
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Sly

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Re: Does combat XP gain need adjustments?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2022, 10:28:59 AM »

Unless I fight double+ Ordos, eventually, my fleet eventually ends up being solo Ziggurat (plus few civvies up to 100 DP fleet) to maximize bonus xp.  I would like to use other fleet configurations, but the bonus xp is not high enough unless the fight is double Ordos.

I prefer bonus XP removed entirely and base xp gain say... quadrupled (or xp required to level quartered).

I hate to reply with just "same", but this is exactly the same experience I have.

It's just so much more efficient.
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HUcast

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Re: Does combat XP gain need adjustments?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2022, 05:19:28 PM »

I don't think story points are meant to be grinded for and doled out easily especially at later levels. The intention is for them to be rare and to be used sparingly, just because you can use very powerful loadouts to circumvent this by getting massive exp bonuses doesn't mean it's the intended norm or at all necessary for a normal playthrough.
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Megas

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Re: Does combat XP gain need adjustments?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2022, 06:12:55 PM »

It does not matter if grinding for points was intended or not.  It is possible to grind for them if player has a cheese fleet and/or can reliably destroy double Ordos.

With geometric costs for colony improvements and other expensive uses of story points, not to mention being able to work off the green debt in the player's lifetime (instead of being a permanent stain on the xp bar), people want to get more story points quickly.

Story points could have been intended to "do cool plot or one-off stuff at a critical time like learning swordsmanship on the spot or creating new stable point", but it functions more like money.  Some of the stuff that use story points, namely anything upgrade related, should use credits instead.
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HollandOats

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Re: Does combat XP gain need adjustments?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2022, 11:14:32 PM »

Story points could have been intended to "do cool plot or one-off stuff at a critical time like learning swordsmanship on the spot or creating new stable point", but it functions more like money.  Some of the stuff that use story points, namely anything upgrade related, should use credits instead.


I've been doing something similar with console commands in my games where I just subtract credits from my character whenever I need to install an s-mod and add a story point. It's made the game more fun since I actually use story points for things other than s-mods now and I save scum less since if I lose a ship I can always just buy another one.

As for the original post I'd recommend just cheating the story points you need. If you're at the point in the game where you're grinding ordos for SP you've basically won and are just going for victory laps at that point. I think the best way to fix this problem is adding more difficult, repeatable late game content. The doritos and special late game bounty you get are nice challenges but because they're not repeatable you do them and go back farming trash fleets again right after.

I'd like to see more late game content like maybe an extreme danger system that spawns dorito fleets to fight or more boss fights similar to the ziggurat. Mods help with that but I'd like to see more base game content aimed at the end game.
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cytokine

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Re: Does combat XP gain need adjustments?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2022, 12:52:47 AM »

The way I see it, some of the bad incentives stem from not doing it the "Ruthless Sector" way, awarding XP for fleet composition and not for deployed ships in combat. The fleet strength calculations in the 'normal range' seem to overvalue big pirate groups slightly, and overvalue officers in low-DP ships. Yesterday the game gave me +57% for three conquerors versus some LEVEL 7 RUTHLESS pirates, in Geminis...turns out autopilot was enough. If a maxed-out ship hits for, say, 150% of its DP, then a maxed-out Gemini should cost 9 and hit for 15 DP, or what? Calculations for Ordos seem to be just about right from my POV, 20%+ meaning possibility of losing a ship, 40%+ meaning bad news. But piloting a Paragon is just about enough for me...

Other bad incentives come from encouraging SP farming. Like, I think I've only done colony improvements for fuel, orbitals, and light industry, and mostly to deal with in-faction shortages. Now, if you're more of the completionist type, you might consider colony improvements as "the end-game thing to do". Invasion/conquest mechanics could be a more engaging end-game activity.

This leads to a situation where the most optimal way to farm XP is by not having any officers at all since they increase relative fleet strength and therefore significantly lower your XP gain
Oh, sure, haven't we all been there... *Desperately hoards mercenary officers to gain a DP advantage*


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Vanshilar

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Re: Does combat XP gain need adjustments?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2022, 02:04:54 AM »

This leads to a situation where the most optimal way to farm XP is by not having any officers at all since they increase relative fleet strength and therefore significantly lower your XP gain, and the more and better officers you have the worse it gets. Instead you should just spam Brawler LPs(and/or carriers, since without officers the Leadership skill line will naturally push you towards them) with Support Doctrine.

Yes and no. The optimal way to farm XP, in terms of XP gained per minute of play, is actually triple Ordos using a full fleet of ships and officers. To max your XP gained per minute, you want to kill enemy ships as fast as possible, and to do that you want a bigger fleet which means more damage output which means more enemy ships killed per minute. Same with putting officers in those ships, since they add to your damage output. Triple Ordos is what's needed for the enemy fleet to be big enough to max out your XP bonus with max fleet and max officers, so you don't really need to fight anything bigger in vanilla.

However, what's easier to set up is a smaller fleet. Smaller battle size, less chaotic, less chance of something going wrong. Also, less need to worry about multiple Radiants at the end. So if you're just going for a single Ordos fleet, then yes you'll be very limited in the DP you can spend. But that's because the fight is so small in the first place that it's even harder to make an effective tiny fleet to max out the XP bonus. The enemy fleet simply isn't difficult enough. Also, the biggest limiting factor is the "constant" term of you the player character: for your fleet, you as a level 15 officer count as 63.75 DP for XP bonus purposes. Rounding up to 70 DP to account for some support ships, this means you have roughly 130 DP to spend on ships and officers if you're going for single Ordos, 330 DP to spend for double Ordos, and 530 DP to spend for triple Ordos. You essentially get to quadruple your fleet (ships + officers) if you go against triple Ordos, but only need to churn through triple the amount of ships.

From some of my past testing, putting my LP Brawler fleet up against double Ordos instead of single Ordos increased my XP/minute by around 30%. It faltered against triple Ordos however because it became too hard to manage them in a larger battle without at least one dying. A triple Ordos-oriented fleet such as Gryphon spam could kill triple Ordos in about the same time that my LP Brawler fleet could kill double Ordos (i.e. around 50% more XP/minute than double Ordos). However, those types of fleets were hard to scale down to single or double Ordos (although double Ordos was somewhat doable) because of the above problem on DP available to spend; they really rely on quantity as a quality all its own. Also they were complete overkill for other fleets, just because other fleets are too small in vanilla. The ships can be put in storage if you don't need to carry around a death fleet, but the officers can't. So I support being able to put officers in storage for when you don't need to carry them around.

For officers, a level 6 officer currently counts as 30 DP for XP bonus purposes. It's really a matter of whether or not the officer will increase the ship's power by that much for it to be worthwhile. Although keep in mind that while it affects the XP bonus, it does not affect the ship's DP to deploy. You get a much more powerful ship that still counts as the same DP to deploy, increasing your power density, which may make the fleet more effective. For example, putting an officer on a Gryphon increases its damage output by roughly 75% (compared with Support Doctrine, which gives Combat Endurance inherently as well as other skills, so the damage output increase was actually bigger). So you can think of it as a 35-DP ship that you get to deploy for 20 DP, but will count as 50 DP for XP bonus purposes. Putting enough 35-DP ships that count as 20 DP on the battlefield is going to allow you to steamroll content, so it may be worth the effect on the XP bonus. So whether or not an officer is worthwhile really depends on your particular fleet.

Personally I wouldn't mind if the whole "more XP based on relative fleet strength" mechanic was completely removed since IMO it does more harm than good. I'd rather race to the top than to the bottom.

It's an incentive for the player to make the battles more challenging. Otherwise the game would be too easy if players just marched death fleets of capital ships around all day. Many other mechanisms in the game (different DP for different ships, supplies upkeep, etc.) serve a similar purpose. The aim is for the player to use a "right size" fleet, not a huge fleet.

FWIW, I do have a todo item to reduce the impact of player-side officers on this calculation. Other than that, though, I think it should be producing generally desirable results - unless I'm missing something?

I feel like a level 6 officer changing from its current 30 DP to around 15 to 20 DP for the XP bonus feels about right. However, I also think that a small fleet for single Ordos, medium fleet for double Ordos, and large full-size fleet and officers for triple Ordos as endgame challenge also feels about right, depending on if the player is looking for "more quicker battles", or "fewer but more epic battles". (Triple Ordos is about what I personally care for in terms of how long the battle is, bigger than that and it becomes a drag. Although people have posted videos of going beyond that for vanilla.) I don't know where you feel is right for the hardest challenge that vanilla should offer, where the XP bonus should get maxed out. But since officers count for a lot more XP for enemy fleets (around 60% of the fleet DP for XP bonus purposes for deserter bounties, around 75% for Ordos fleets) than the player's fleet (around 20-60%, counting the player character as an officer) it might be tricky to balance toward what you feel is reasonable. There's that *0.67 multiplier in the code which might be revisited to get the desired results.
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