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Author Topic: Expanding upon ship crewmen  (Read 3855 times)

Drazan

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Re: Expanding upon ship crewmen
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2022, 01:09:42 AM »

I would love to see some crew mechanics. Any crew mechanics. Even if it is tedious. Even if its bad. Just make crew important.
It just feels so bad that we live in a sector with less than a billion people overall and yet you can just kill and buy tens of thousands of crew no problem. I mean a level 4 colony supposedly have this many people and if you kill them (satbomb) that will have some seroius consequenses. But if you lose 10k crew then nobody even cares.

CREW LIFE MATTERS
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Grievous69

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Re: Expanding upon ship crewmen
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2022, 01:17:45 AM »

Even if it is tedious. Even if its bad.
Thankfully some people are not developers  ::)
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Expanding upon ship crewmen
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2022, 03:54:26 AM »

I would love to see some crew mechanics. Any crew mechanics. Even if it is tedious. Even if its bad. Just make crew important.
It just feels so bad that we live in a sector with less than a billion people overall and yet you can just kill and buy tens of thousands of crew no problem. I mean a level 4 colony supposedly have this many people and if you kill them (satbomb) that will have some seroius consequenses. But if you lose 10k crew then nobody even cares.

CREW LIFE MATTERS

Just increase monthly pay by % of crew loss.
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Schwartz

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Re: Expanding upon ship crewmen
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2022, 07:33:02 AM »

Morale would be a terrible addition because CR is already a big abstraction of various fitness-related things. Having two separate ones is more than pointless. We had crew experience in older releases, and it amounted to higher CR.

Assuming we go all-out and have a certain amount of crew assigned and dedicated per-ship, to be given traits, to be trained and re-trained in case of death - what's the difference to officer skills? Just another, possibly different, skill pool? That will just push the power ceiling yet again, and officer skills were nerfed for that reason.

The sim gamer in me enjoys complexity, but with CR and officers already in the game, I can't think of a way to make crew more meaningful without it mostly being overlap with systems already in the game. The Starship Legends mod is one very neat way to do this without changing crew, and I like it a whole lot. However, is it balanced? No. If you're a bad player and have your ships blow up more often, you get more bad traits on top of the d-mods. If you're a good player, your get mostly good traits. Very enjoyable and I play with it most of the time, but I would not want to see it added to the base game.
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robepriority

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Re: Expanding upon ship crewmen
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2022, 08:38:17 AM »

Yeah, unfortunately the mechanics that would make it narratively meaningful would just make loss cycles more painful than they already are.
Which makes me tempted to suggest abstracting it out entirely

Daynen

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Re: Expanding upon ship crewmen
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2022, 09:28:59 AM »

I honestly don't find the crew mechanics to be all that tedious currently; they're actually a mostly solved problem for me.  I simply keep enough crew to fill my ships, plus a few hundred extra for losses or mothballing salvage.  Essentially, I just keep the crew bar mostly filled and I'm pretty much good to go.  Your mileage may of course vary.

That said, I get the complaints that it's either too tedious or not meaningful enough.  It DOES seem odd how quickly we can lose crew and no one bats an eye, given the size of the sector's population.  Then again, I get why satbombing is a warcrime, because you're not blowing up ships, which can be produced; you're leveling CITIES, which are not only NOT all willing military personnel but the places where those ships are MADE.  Abstractions I know, but I can kinda see why one would *** off the sector more than the other.  Then again, when you do blow up thousands of enemy crew, their faction and friends tend to frown upon you anyway so...I dunno?  Maybe we're not seeing the forest for the trees?

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Aethelric

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Re: Expanding upon ship crewmen
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2022, 10:26:43 AM »

Crew is in an awkward place where it's just not that interesting right now, but also most of the potential additions are going to step on the toes of existing mechanics. As others have mentioned, CR basically already covers morale and crew competency in an abstracted way. Breaking those out into additional meters doesn't seem like it would add too much to the actual experience of Space Admiral Simulator.

There's basically three real "crew moments": you salvage a larger ship than your fleet currently has, you lose a lot of ships/fighters in a battle or series of battles, or you need to found a colony. The latter only happens at a point where there's no economic challenge, so basically the only thing crew does currently is force you to mothball ships or have low CR on rare occasions while you return to quickly load up on crew. . And neither of the remainder add any gameplay, really; if you're losing that many ships or need to put a large ship into service, supplies are more frequently your limiting factor and a much more impactful limiter at that.

I don't think that crew experience actually added much to the game, though, so I don't think that should make a return. Splitting off pilots from crew wouldn't add much of anything, either, besides some extra bookkeeping. Getting rid of crew altogether feels like an unwelcome abstraction. So I guess, unless Alex has some plans that will surprise us (entirely possible), we're stuck with crew As It Is. Small balance shifts like increasing price or changing availability might make it a little more interesting in the early game, alongside the previously-discussed change of Blast Doors and Recovery Shuttles into something that has more of an actual impact to make them separately more appealing.
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Megas

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Re: Expanding upon ship crewmen
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2022, 10:28:38 AM »

No crew for automated ships is either a ribbon at best or a downside because they cannot use most fighters.
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SCC

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Re: Expanding upon ship crewmen
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2022, 11:20:56 AM »

I never said morale would hard stop you from exploring if you were doing well
"Morale will only affect you if other in-game factors affect you" is not the best way to sell me this mechanic.


Similarly IMO finding research stations should be less "making the rounds" and more "learn about specific station, go on expedition to reach it". On the flip side, I think getting specific BPs, especially those your commission faction uses, should be easier.
Well there already is an alternative way of getting those BPs (raiding (which shares the disadvantage of being random)). I'm not sure whether it would be faster than exploration, though, especially considering you can't raid blueprint packages.
Exploration isn't as bad I make it out to be, but it's pretty much the best way to get blueprints and the only way to get colony items (unless you're looking specifically for a nanoforge, a synchrotron core or one fullerene spool).

The Starship Legends mod is one very neat way to do this without changing crew, and I like it a whole lot. However, is it balanced? No. If you're a bad player and have your ships blow up more often, you get more bad traits on top of the d-mods. If you're a good player, your get mostly good traits. Very enjoyable and I play with it most of the time, but I would not want to see it added to the base game.
SL has the issues of positive and negative traits being random (impossible to plan for) and it also "punishes" for acquiring new ships (though then again, the same can be said for s-mods).

BCS

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Re: Expanding upon ship crewmen
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2022, 11:25:16 PM »

Thankfully some people are not developers  ::)

Indeed. Nothing kills immersion and investment faster than excessive player convenience.
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Serenitis

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Re: Expanding upon ship crewmen
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2022, 12:05:57 AM »

Indeed. Nothing kills immersion and investment faster than excessive player convenience.
This is one of those statements where you can't tell if someone's joking or not, because there are people out there that genuinely believe that playing a game to escape the tedium of reality should be just as dull.

I honestly don't find the crew mechanics to be all that tedious currently; they're actually a mostly solved problem for me.  I simply keep enough crew to fill my ships, plus a few hundred extra for losses or mothballing salvage.  Essentially, I just keep the crew bar mostly filled and I'm pretty much good to go.  Your mileage may of course vary.
Sort of same. It's not overly burdensome. But it's not really doing anything "fun" either, it's just a minor chore that needs to be done.
It's managable.

It is however, significantly nicer than when we had multiple types of crew for the different experience levels which demanded that your fleet be arranged in a specific order to get the right crew on the right ship etc.
The extra inventory clutter, and the weird incentive to buy rookies, train them to elite then sell them. Just a ton of unescessary micro.
I'm glad it's dead.
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Schwartz

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Re: Expanding upon ship crewmen
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2022, 03:27:45 AM »

The old crew XP system was fine. It didn't make much of a difference, except you got to sell off elite crew bit by bit and just re-buy cheap rookies bit by bit. It was a way to make some money, while the crew XP (fairly quickly) amounted to maximum possible CR. I consider the removal good as well, because now we can determine CR along a few more solid variables and we pay for it with officer or player skills.

Would it still be fun to find and play with the "right" expanded crew mechanic? Yeah definitely. Anything immersive and cool. I just can't figure out what it could be without stepping on the toes of officer skills.
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SCC

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Re: Expanding upon ship crewmen
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2022, 04:33:56 AM »

I have a feeling more people say they trained crew for profit than actually did do that.

SonnaBanana

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Re: Expanding upon ship crewmen
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2022, 05:22:26 AM »

The old crew XP system was fine. It didn't make much of a difference, except you got to sell off elite crew bit by bit and just re-buy cheap rookies bit by bit. It was a way to make some money, while the crew XP (fairly quickly) amounted to maximum possible CR. I consider the removal good as well, because now we can determine CR along a few more solid variables and we pay for it with officer or player skills.

Would it still be fun to find and play with the "right" expanded crew mechanic? Yeah definitely. Anything immersive and cool. I just can't figure out what it could be without stepping on the toes of officer skills.
I have one! Or I think so  :P

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=22384.msg337054#msg337054
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Megas

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Re: Expanding upon ship crewmen
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2022, 05:36:16 AM »

I have a feeling more people say they trained crew for profit than actually did do that.
I have not sold crew back then because I did not take the skill that trained crew up faster and halved skeleton crew with the Making Do perk.

Without the crew skill, player had enough elite plus some spare by endgame.  With the skill, player would have a glut of elite crew (and reduced crew requirements) and could sell off crew for money, not that he needed to with the food runs from Tartessus to Askonia.

There was no level cap, but player needed to have level in the 70s or 80s to get all of the skills, and the crew skill was one of the lowest priority skills.
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