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[keckles]

Please tell me why the Devastator cannon is too good.

Follow the Onslaught in the video, I have it equipped with Devastators in the two large side mounts. In vanilla the Devastator is ostensibly an anti-armor weapon dealing HE but effectively is a fighter/missile shredder due to the inconsistency in the detonation of its flak, with RC the massive ROF, range and velocity increase means the Devastator becomes an absolute chainsaw with the occasional shot detonating in transit but the majority hit their target, deleting any armor that existed. Also, I'm not sure if it's just a bug with Detailed Combat Results and RC but the after-action report showed my PD lasers as doing insane amounts of damage. I didn't observe anything like that in the vid so maybe it's just the interaction between the two mods, might be worth looking into.

After some further testing, tactical lasers and PD lasers also need some adjusting, they're plain murderous right now and absolutely shred through hull like butter once armor is gone.

[Liral]

Follow the Onslaught in the video, I have it equipped with Devastators in the two large side mounts. In vanilla the Devastator is ostensibly an anti-armor weapon dealing HE but effectively is a fighter/missile shredder due to the inconsistency in the detonation of its flak, with RC the massive ROF, range and velocity increase means the Devastator becomes an absolute chainsaw with the occasional shot detonating in transit but the majority hit their target, deleting any armor that existed. Also, I'm not sure if it's just a bug with Detailed Combat Results and RC but the after-action report showed my PD lasers as doing insane amounts of damage. I didn't observe anything like that in the vid so maybe it's just the interaction between the two mods, might be worth looking into.

Thanks for telling me why!  While the refire delay is the same, removing the burst size limit has indeed increased the average rate-of-fire, and combining it with a tight spread and high speed and range have totally changed the Devastator, which had balanced its high damage-per-shot with a low hit probability.  I could add the former to the check for being a cannon and turn the devastator into a 3-shot barrage gun.

[Ranakastrasz]

After some further testing, tactical lasers and PD lasers also need some adjusting, they're plain murderous right now and absolutely shred through hull like butter once armor is gone.

The manual part with armor having two layers is probably what is confusing me. It doesn't give me useful information. 1/6th or 1/10th of what? And the rest.

Odd, I thought armor stripping purely increased damage for hits that got through armor.

But I don't really understand the damage model still.

[Kakroom]

edit: Actually, after reloading that save and replaying that fight with Realistic Combat off, it felt significantly more cramped and too close-quarters in vanilla by comparison. I might try the rest of this run with Realistic Combat on. Most weapons definitely need to be rebalanced though, the Devastator Cannon is just way too good in RC and Harpoons are overperforming like crazy. My Dominators with triple Harpoon MRM Pods absolutely decimated the enemy fleet with their opening salvos, those things are just too fast to be intercepted

The keyword is cramped. It's difficult to  go back after being spoiled.

[Ranakastrasz]

Using the most recent version, I no longer see any ricochets, or hits that do nothing. it seems like it is using the vanilla damage model again.
Not sure if I did something wrong. I deleted the mod and downloaded a fresh copy, and have no other mods enabled. Not sure what is going on.
Previously ricochets were a thing.

[Liral]

After some further testing, tactical lasers and PD lasers also need some adjusting, they're plain murderous right now and absolutely shred through hull like butter once armor is gone.

While tactical lasers are much stronger than before--perhaps too strong--I've tested them now and seen no difference between their performance before and after destroying armor. 

Edit: See below

[Liral]

Using the most recent version, I no longer see any ricochets, or hits that do nothing. it seems like it is using the vanilla damage model again.
Not sure if I did something wrong. I deleted the mod and downloaded a fresh copy, and have no other mods enabled. Not sure what is going on.
Previously ricochets were a thing.

Oh no... it has returned to the vanilla damage model!  I thought DamageListener would work like ModifyDamageDealt.  This is bad.  I have to scramble to fix things now.

[Ranakastrasz]

Earlier post suggests that the (intended) damage model is something like.
Check for penetration, if fail, deflect, else penetrate.
On penetrate, if compartment intact (true/false, or progressive?) cut damage by 60x, else cut by 10x.
Deal remaining damage to armor and hull.

Armor stripping is entirely replaced. Instead of resisting damage and taking a fraction of the damage after resistance, and degrading with hits, instead it has a seperate penetration test at 1/15th armor strength, for depleting it's durability. When depleted, it doesn't make the armor easier to penetrate, but successful penetrations deal more damage in some way.

I have trouble believing that an intact compartment reduces damage to 1/6th and a depleted one reduces damage to 1/10th, as implied by the manual, because then depleting a compartment makes the target MORE durable.


Its hard to tell what the "Armor and compartments have two layers" graphic is supposed to be saying, is what I am getting at. The first, 1/15th layer of armor, is that a separate penetration roll? What is the 1/6th and 1/10th damage indicate? Amount of damage dealt to the compartment for depletion, or damage reduction? I.e. depletion means that you take 90% damage instead of 86%. Which is a tiny change, so I doubt it.

[Luftwaffles]

Earlier post suggests that the (intended) damage model is something like.
Check for penetration, if fail, deflect, else penetrate.
On penetrate, if compartment intact (true/false, or progressive?) cut damage by 60x, else cut by 10x.
Deal remaining damage to armor and hull.

Armor stripping is entirely replaced. Instead of resisting damage and taking a fraction of the damage after resistance, and degrading with hits, instead it has a seperate penetration test at 1/15th armor strength, for depleting it's durability. When depleted, it doesn't make the armor easier to penetrate, but successful penetrations deal more damage in some way.

I have trouble believing that an intact compartment reduces damage to 1/6th and a depleted one reduces damage to 1/10th, as implied by the manual, because then depleting a compartment makes the target MORE durable.


Its hard to tell what the "Armor and compartments have two layers" graphic is supposed to be saying, is what I am getting at. The first, 1/15th layer of armor, is that a separate penetration roll? What is the 1/6th and 1/10th damage indicate? Amount of damage dealt to the compartment for depletion, or damage reduction? I.e. depletion means that you take 90% damage instead of 86%. Which is a tiny change, so I doubt it.

What on earth are you talking about? A destroyed compartment definitely takes less damage. Anyway, here's how I think the damage formula works, Liral please correct me if I'm wrong.

1. A projectile hits a ship. If it's KE damage, its listed damage is multiplied by 1.33. If it's HE, it's multiplied by 0.67 instead. This value becomes our "Armor Pen" value.
2. Armor Pen is compared against 1/15th of the total armor of the ship being struck, which is also increased or decreased by the angle of impact. If Armor Pen is less than this value, you get a deflection and absolutely nothing happens.
3. If Armor Pen is greater than the previous value but less than the full armor value of the ship(again accounting for angle of impact), then you get a partial penetration. If the armor cell struck by your projectile is still intact, the target ship's hull bar and the armor cell both take 16.6% of the listed damage of the projectile, multiplied by 0.5 if it's KE or 2 if it's HE. If the armor cell is not intact, the target ship's hull takes 10% of the damage instead.
4. If Armor Pen is greater than the full armor value of the target ship(accounting for angle of impact), then you get a full penetration, aka a citadel hit. In that case, the ship's hull takes 100% of the projectile's damage. I'm guessing that said damage is also applied to the compartment hit, but I don't know if citadelling an already destroyed armor cell does less damage than hitting an intact one.

I'm also not sure how damage is applied to multiple cells, since as we all know in vanilla a hit actually does damage to 21 cells at once. I'd guess penetration and damage is calculated, then split up among the cells, with each one providing a damage reduction based on whether it's destroyed or not?

[Ranakastrasz]

What on earth are you talking about? A destroyed compartment definitely takes less damage. Anyway, here's how I think the damage formula works, Liral please correct me if I'm wrong.

1. A projectile hits a ship. If it's KE damage, its listed damage is multiplied by 1.33. If it's HE, it's multiplied by 0.67 instead. This value becomes our "Armor Pen" value.
2. Armor Pen is compared against 1/15th of the total armor of the ship being struck, which is also increased or decreased by the angle of impact. If Armor Pen is less than this value, you get a deflection and absolutely nothing happens.
3. If Armor Pen is greater than the previous value but less than the full armor value of the ship(again accounting for angle of impact), then you get a partial penetration. If the armor cell struck by your projectile is still intact, the target ship's hull bar and the armor cell both take 16.6% of the listed damage of the projectile, multiplied by 0.5 if it's KE or 2 if it's HE. If the armor cell is not intact, the target ship's hull takes 10% of the damage instead.
4. If Armor Pen is greater than the full armor value of the target ship(accounting for angle of impact), then you get a full penetration, aka a citadel hit. In that case, the ship's hull takes 100% of the projectile's damage. I'm guessing that said damage is also applied to the compartment hit, but I don't know if citadelling an already destroyed armor cell does less damage than hitting an intact one.

I'm also not sure how damage is applied to multiple cells, since as we all know in vanilla a hit actually does damage to 21 cells at once. I'd guess penetration and damage is calculated, then split up among the cells, with each one providing a damage reduction based on whether it's destroyed or not?

Well, I am trying to understand how it works, and I thought it was said that destroyed compartments increased damage taken. But, if that isn't the case, I suppose that I was wrong.

So you have 3 stages of penetration. Deflection, for very weak hits, partial, which damages compartments, and compartment damage applies to hull partially, and once destroyed, deals less damage to hull, and full penetration, which deals full damage.
Damage and penetration vary by damage type.

Overall, assuming this is how it works, I have a good idea on the mechanics now.

Edit: if this is accurate, then you want to spread your damage out, and also weapons need a minimum of 1/15th the target's armor in penetration, ideally more because of deflection.

Past that, explosives are better vs light armor or smaller ships, while kinetic is best against heavy armor are bigger ships.
Flak is still best as pd or vs fighters, but since armor can't be stripped, it will be completely ineffective vs even minor armor.

Do shields behave any differently?

[Liral]

Well, I am trying to understand how it works, and I thought it was said that destroyed compartments increased damage taken. But, if that isn't the case, I suppose that I was wrong.

So you have 3 stages of penetration. Deflection, for very weak hits, partial, which damages compartments, and compartment damage applies to hull partially, and once destroyed, deals less damage to hull, and full penetration, which deals full damage.
Damage and penetration vary by damage type.

Overall, assuming this is how it works, I have a good idea on the mechanics now.

Edit: if this is accurate, then you want to spread your damage out, and also weapons need a minimum of 1/15th the target's armor in penetration, ideally more because of deflection.

Past that, explosives are better vs light armor or smaller ships, while kinetic is best against heavy armor are bigger ships.
Flak is still best as pd or vs fighters, but since armor can't be stripped, it will be completely ineffective vs even minor armor.

Do shields behave any differently?

It works as you describe.

[Liral]

New patch!  1.7.0 is out!  Put the modified damage model back--I never meant for it to leave.  Making it apply to each beam tick without turning the humble tactical laser into the death star was harder than I thought it would be and has involved significant spaghetti and arbitrariness.

[Ranakastrasz]

Still the old version under download.

On beam range thing.
Ignoring the Quantum limit, and looking more at, essentially, how tight the beam is. If the beam looses effectiveness with distance, presumably following the standard 1/x^2 falloff for surface of a sphere, then tightening the beam, and/or altering the size of the aperture, should alter, effectively, how quickly damage falls off with distance. If the angle of the cone is larger, the surface area grows faster with distance, while if it is smaller, it grows slower. If the angle is, essentially, zero, then, ignoring quantum effects, the beam should never fall off at all. So for longer range weapons, you would have a tighter spread.

The size of the aperture also might matter, as that is how spread out it starts. I think. Larger weapons would start somewhat spread out, so excessively close ranges wouldn't deal quite as excessive quantities of damage.

Extra laser power would still, essentially, increase range, but there would be a soft cap anyway, simply because of weapon economy. losing 99% of your damage, when you still have to spend a ton of flux makes it kind of not worth firing. Especially for, say, burst point defense.

Missile weapons seem to have lost their autoloaders, and the Annihilator launcher has both lost most of its ammo, and still has significant weapon inaccuracy rendering it effectively useless.

[Liral]

Still the old version under download.

What?  Aw come on.  I've uploaded it since reading this message.

On beam range thing.
Ignoring the Quantum limit, and looking more at, essentially, how tight the beam is. If the beam looses effectiveness with distance, presumably following the standard 1/x^2 falloff for surface of a sphere, then tightening the beam, and/or altering the size of the aperture, should alter, effectively, how quickly damage falls off with distance. If the angle of the cone is larger, the surface area grows faster with distance, while if it is smaller, it grows slower. If the angle is, essentially, zero, then, ignoring quantum effects, the beam should never fall off at all. So for longer range weapons, you would have a tighter spread.

The quantum effects are what limit beam tightness: they determine the beam waist, which is the narrowest part of the hourglass shape of a diffracted laser beam.  If the angle of that hourglass is zero, then the photons will wander off course just as though it had been almost zero.  To focus a beam at a distance, start with widely spaced photons and angle them in like the little lasers on the death star or the beams of light from a magnifying glass.  The higher the frequency of the photons, the better as well.

The size of the aperture also might matter, as that is how spread out it starts. I think. Larger weapons would start somewhat spread out, so excessively close ranges wouldn't deal quite as excessive quantities of damage.

The bigger the aperture, the tighter the beam can be far away.

Extra laser power would still, essentially, increase range, but there would be a soft cap anyway, simply because of weapon economy. losing 99% of your damage, when you still have to spend a ton of flux makes it kind of not worth firing. Especially for, say, burst point defense.

Indeed, pumping more power through a laser generates more heat, decreasing its thermal efficiency and degrading beam quality; nevertheless, absolutely increasing power absolutely increases range up to the limit of the materials of the beam emitter.  Hence my range cutoff at 10 diffracted intensity (i.e., the weapon could not penetrate even the surface armor of a ship with a mere armor rating of 100).

Missile weapons seem to have lost their autoloaders, and the Annihilator launcher has both lost most of its ammo, and still has significant weapon inaccuracy rendering it effectively useless.

They what?  Oh no.  Try the new version and get back to me.

[Ranakastrasz]

Its fixed. Missiles are the same.
Gonna try an actual game now.

Edit: Query. Do range modifiers alter projectile speed and beam coherence?