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[Liral]

Hmm. I suppose giving them all health/tilecount/15 health is probably the correct number.

This is definitely something to think over because I would have to mess with the armor grid or do weird math or both; i.e., if a compartment that has 100 HP in vanilla would have 200 HP in RC, I would have to double the health reduction of the compartment when applying damage.

When an explosion occurs, from a ship death, fragmentation bombs, or flak, it, I believe, hits all ships in an AOE. This doesn't really have a direction of impact, and so because it kinda just hits from all directions, it should treat it as a direct, 90 degree perpendicular hit, as  FRAGMENTATION damage.

Ahhhh... I see.  I've read the API, and the explosion is already covered because it is a DamagingProjectileAPI!

Then shouldn't that not do anything? I thought range was pretty much just overwritten by projectile speed and target manuverability. Meaning it does nothing at all.

Yeah, I have to rework those skills!

Meant more along the lines of how some skill mods, and presumably hull mods, would change effective damage for armor calculations only. That said stat should specifically modify penetration score.

Yea. Gunny battles kept rough balance between PD and missiles, with PD having double range and half damage, and missiles having double speed and half health. Relative to the double range and speed of everything, anyway. Archean Order made missiles regenerate to compensate for stronger fighters and PD.
As it is, Rockets and torpedos get intercepted casually, though I suspect missiles jink. Admittedly, since Rockets and torpedos have an acceleration, they might also be simulated as jinking. but it feels imbalanced. Along with Annilator rockets having 16 missiles instead of 50 or 80 or whatever it is in vanilla.

I mean, how is it treated differently? How exactly do weapons get modified by the script? I saw that weapons all seem to get a range bonus based on size, which presumably comes with a projectile speed bonus, and somehow all ballistic weapons have magazines and batch reloading, but I don't know the rules. And cannons are apparently are a category based on some stats of some weapons and have a different set of modifications.

The difference is that cannons don't have an ammo limit and, if they have multiple barrels, fire in a burst of all of them without delay, while  autocannons get an ammo limit if ballistic and, if they fire in bursts, fire full-auto at their burst delay.

Indeed. But clearly projectiles should bounce off of shield bubbles as much as they do against armor. XD

Hmmmmm... that could actually be arranged.

Breach Missiles, and anything using that modifier/script will, presumably, deal damage to compartments, and probably nothing to the hull. Or something, I dunno how they work, but wrongly is a good guess.

Again, this would take a rewrite.

Salamander missile script means that you need to override the script, or make sure that the speed/maneuverability ratio is maintained. Otherwise you get infinite orbits, which are no fun for anyone.

Are those a problem?

Damage Penetration should either get a +0.3%, or hit angles below ~5 degrees should be treated as zero, so that common damage numbers giving penetration exactly matching target armor can penetrate for direct hits. Or something like that. Its annoying having to, essentially, say that a projectile with 100 penetration can penetrate, at best, 99.7 armor, meaning you can't just multiply to get good estimates.

Ooooh, I didn't think of that.  If your projectile deals 150 damage, and the target has the ever-so-common 150 armor, then the projectile fully penetrates only on an absolutely perfectly straight hit.  That said... why else would the target have been designed to have exactly 150 armor if not to counter a common projectile damage amount?  If you want to penetrate an amount of armor, then give your projectile some extra damage to contend with 1 / sin(x).  For example, here is a table of a 300mm (aka 300 armor rating) target at different angles:

Angle (degrees)	Angled Thickness (mm)
90	300
80	304
70	319
60	346
50	391
40	466
30	600

An LRP (a.k.a. KINETIC) would need 341 * 0.67 = 228mm RHAe of penetration (a.k.a., stated damage) to reach the citadel of a destroyer with 300mm of total armor (a.k.a. armor rating) at 60 degrees; an EFP (a.k.a. HIGH_EXPLOSIVE) would need 341 * 1.5 = 512mm RHAe of penetration to do the same.

Give larger weapons a flat penetration bonus. Medium gets +25, and large gets +50 penetration (modified by HE/KI/FG damage type)

Right idea, but the numbers are many times too small: +100 for small-mount cannons, +200 for medium-mount cannons, +300 for large-mount cannons.  Autocannons get nothing.

Overpenetration. As an "It would be cool if" thing, a projectile with 2x+ penetration/armor should pierce through the target and continue, possibly with lost speed, damage, and altered angle. And possibly dealing somewhat less damage, or damage spread through more compartments til it reaches the other side. Or something. Dunno if practical.

That is something I've thought about myself.

[Ranakastrasz]

Explosions

Ahhhh... I see.  I've read the API, and the explosion is already covered because it is a DamagingProjectileAPI!

Yea, but if its a projectile, and an explosion, what angle does it hit the armor at?

Then shouldn't that not do anything? I thought range was pretty much just overwritten by projectile speed and target manuverability. Meaning it does nothing at all.

Yeah, I have to rework those skills!

Thats not skills, or not entirely. That is integrated targeting sensor and targeting core and safety overrides and ECM.

The difference is that cannons don't have an ammo limit and, if they have multiple barrels, fire in a burst of all of them without delay, while  autocannons get an ammo limit if ballistic and, if they fire in bursts, fire full-auto at their burst delay.

Ah. Hope to get documentation on this later.

Hmmmmm... that could actually be arranged.

Yea. I had some thoughts, about just using an incidence angle threshold based on shield efficiency and current flux/max flux. Especially amusing because fortress shield should just cause most things to bounce off.

Are those a problem?

Yes. Salamanders get stuck orbiting frigates currently.

Ooooh, I didn't think of that.  If your projectile deals 150 damage, and the target has the ever-so-common 150 armor, then the projectile fully penetrates only on an absolutely perfectly straight hit.  That said... why else would the target have been designed to have exactly 150 armor if not to counter a common projectile damage amount?  If you want to penetrate an amount of armor, then give your projectile some extra damage to contend with 1 / sin(x).  For example, here is a table of a 300mm (aka 300 armor rating) target at different angles:

Angle (degrees)	Angled Thickness (mm)
90	300
80	304
70	319
60	346
50	391
40	466
30	600

An LRP (a.k.a. KINETIC) would need 341 * 0.67 = 228mm RHAe of penetration (a.k.a., stated damage) to reach the citadel of a destroyer with 300mm of total armor (a.k.a. armor rating) at 60 degrees; an EFP (a.k.a. HIGH_EXPLOSIVE) would need 341 * 1.5 = 512mm RHAe of penetration to do the same.

Makes sense, still annoying. can perfect 90 degree impacts actually occur?
I guess I just have to treat it as, Penetration must be greater than armor. Given the threshold for 5 degrees is literally 0.38%, even +1 damage is probably enough for penetration given a direct shot.
It is just annoying how often the penetration and armor, or armor/15 just so happen to be equal, at least for smaller weapons and ships. Thumper deals 100 damage, 25 penetration, and talon fighters have exactly 25 armor. But some fighters are actually even more fragile, so w.e. Just have to live with it.

Right idea, but the numbers are many times too small: +100 for small-mount cannons, +200 for medium-mount cannons, +300 for large-mount cannons.  Autocannons get nothing.

Unsurprising. I just made those up quickly.

That is something I've thought about myself.

Good to know.

----
It is actually kinda interesting the different damage-armor range bands you end up with, and it cycles Kinetic, Explosive, Fragmentation, then repeats.
(Ignoring Compartment damage bonus, for simplicity here)
Kinetic deals damage to 22.5x armor, but doesn't get its full half-damage until armor drops to 1.5x. Dealing 5% and 50% damage means that although kinetic weapons will usually eventually wear a target down, it isn't going to happen fast, even for full penetration.
Explosive gains purchase at 11.25x, and full damage at 0.75x. So explosives have to be very strong for full effect. Also, they need twice the damage to penetrate, but get thrice the effect of kinetic at 15% and 150% damage.
Frag struggles massively, with 3.75x and 0.25x penetration modifiers, but the 40% and 400% is massive. Full kinetic penetration is comparable to partial frag penetration, and given the sheer damage frag has, roughly double that of other weapons, along with the magnitude required to actually breach a citadel means that a fragmentation hit of that magnitude is probably going to one-shot the target.

In terms of how many times more armor the target has than weapon damage, and best damage type.
So 22.5x to 11.25x kinetic. 5%
11.25x to 3.75x, Explosive. 15%
3.75x to 1.5x Frag. 40%.
1.5x to 0.75x Kinetic again. 50%
0.75x to 0.25x Explosive, 150%.
0.25x Frag, 400%.

So kinetic is best if you have no other option, or can't get big enough weapons, but you really want to use bigger guns if you can.
Explosives need to be twice as strong, and fragmentation 6x as strong (as kinetic, or 3x explosive) for effect.
Even minor fragmentation damage is no joke, because fragmentation tends to be 2-3x the dps of kinetic/explosive.

Honestly, I think that fragmentation damage needs pulled back, to 1/4th penetration, and only 2x damage. The Thumper can murder above average frigates in seconds with their shields down, which is.... Not something it can do in vanilla.

Also, I wish it was 1/16th for outer armor instead of 1/15th because then the math resolves so much easier in my head. Was that just because of the 1/15th armor tile health thing, or what?

----
How did you alter damage to components? I assume ionic damage ignores armor entirely, but for regular damage, is that modified? I could see the partial penetrations to intact compartments dealing extra subsystem damage as well.
----
Beams. Can we get a range-band/damage table, for "Point blank", 10%, 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% of calculated distance, or however you do it? Because my point defense beams seem to be the most lethal weapon on some of my ships, and that just seems weird.

[Luftwaffles]

Yeah, what's up with HE damage only doing 1.5x damage to hull anyway? It's 2x in vanilla.

Also, have you considered reducing the armor penetration of a projectile based on its time in flight? This would represent ships dynamically angling themselves up or down as they attempt to jink. That said, this might make armor a little too strong. Maybe you could make HE guns fire HESH shells, which largely don't care about impact angle?

Also, there are a couple weapons that realistically should ignore impact angle. Most projectile energy weapons, for example the antimatter blaster and plasma cannon, fire what are essentially omnidirectional contact-fused bombs, which definitely don't care about impact angle. The Tachyon Lance, which is described as a charged particle stream more akin to a lightning bolt than a laser, the Mjolnir, which shoots mini singularity shells, and all slow moving HE projectiles e.g Piranha bombs, heavy/light mortar shells - these all probably shouldn't care about impact angle.

[Ranakastrasz]

All damage to hull in vanilla is 1x. He vs armor is the 2x.

Incidentally, the 4x damage on top of higher base damage is probably why fragmentation weapons are so lethal.

[Liral]

Yea, but if its a projectile, and an explosion, what angle does it hit the armor at?

I have no idea, but the code must be handling it, I guess! 

Thats not skills, or not entirely. That is integrated targeting sensor and targeting core and safety overrides and ECM.

Yeah, I have a whole section on the front page about that.  It's called Possible Future Features and goes on for a while.

Ah. Hope to get documentation on this later.

Honestly, this stuff is so complicated and changes so much and so often that the documentation would end up outdated.  I recommend reading the source code itself, which is included in the mod folder.  All the variables and functions have nice, consistent names, and the code is well-split into intuitively named methods.

Yea. I had some thoughts, about just using an incidence angle threshold based on shield efficiency and current flux/max flux. Especially amusing because fortress shield should just cause most things to bounce off.

Ok, so I take you to mean that more-efficient shields would be 'harder,' and what about current vs max flux?

Yes. Salamanders get stuck orbiting frigates currently.

Oh no, not again...

Makes sense, still annoying. can perfect 90 degree impacts actually occur?

If you literally got to 90.0000..., yes

I guess I just have to treat it as, Penetration must be greater than armor. Given the threshold for 5 degrees is literally 0.38%, even +1 damage is probably enough for penetration given a direct shot.

It is just annoying how often the penetration and armor, or armor/15 just so happen to be equal, at least for smaller weapons and ships. Thumper deals 100 damage, 25 penetration, and talon fighters have exactly 25 armor. But some fighters are actually even more fragile, so w.e. Just have to live with it.

I am open to change about this: I had no idea it even worked out this way.  I think you mean that you find reading, "Damage: 50," thinking, "Aha, so I can penetrate 750 armor rating, but only on a direct shot--gotta get right on..." and then only partially penetrating, to be annoying, right?

It is actually kinda interesting the different damage-armor range bands you end up with, and it cycles Kinetic, Explosive, Fragmentation, then repeats.
(Ignoring Compartment damage bonus, for simplicity here)
Kinetic deals damage to 22.5x armor, but doesn't get its full half-damage until armor drops to 1.5x. Dealing 5% and 50% damage means that although kinetic weapons will usually eventually wear a target down, it isn't going to happen fast, even for full penetration.
Explosive gains purchase at 11.25x, and full damage at 0.75x. So explosives have to be very strong for full effect. Also, they need twice the damage to penetrate, but get thrice the effect of kinetic at 15% and 150% damage.
Frag struggles massively, with 3.75x and 0.25x penetration modifiers, but the 40% and 400% is massive. Full kinetic penetration is comparable to partial frag penetration, and given the sheer damage frag has, roughly double that of other weapons, along with the magnitude required to actually breach a citadel means that a fragmentation hit of that magnitude is probably going to one-shot the target.

In terms of how many times more armor the target has than weapon damage, and best damage type.
So 22.5x to 11.25x kinetic. 5%
11.25x to 3.75x, Explosive. 15%
3.75x to 1.5x Frag. 40%.
1.5x to 0.75x Kinetic again. 50%
0.75x to 0.25x Explosive, 150%.
0.25x Frag, 400%.

So kinetic is best if you have no other option, or can't get big enough weapons, but you really want to use bigger guns if you can.
Explosives need to be twice as strong, and fragmentation 6x as strong (as kinetic, or 3x explosive) for effect.
Even minor fragmentation damage is no joke, because fragmentation tends to be 2-3x the dps of kinetic/explosive.

Yes, you understood my intention exactly!  Kinetic to get through at all, high explosive to exploit overmatch, two layers of armor, and frag if you have a massive overmatch!  I'm surprised to learn about that intermediate frag layer, though. 

Honestly, I think that fragmentation damage needs pulled back, to 1/4th penetration, and only 2x damage. The Thumper can murder above average frigates in seconds with their shields down, which is.... Not something it can do in vanilla.

Note that it's not 1/4th penetration but 4x effective armor thickness.  Wait... the Thumper can do that?  I never even knew!  I've gotta try this out before patching it.

Also, I wish it was 1/16th for outer armor instead of 1/15th because then the math resolves so much easier in my head. Was that just because of the 1/15th armor tile health thing, or what?

The 1/15th is not exact and is just whatever the max tile health is.  You're convincing me to change it, hahaha.

How did you alter damage to components? I assume ionic damage ignores armor entirely, but for regular damage, is that modified? I could see the partial penetrations to intact compartments dealing extra subsystem damage as well.

I didn't alter it at all and have no idea how it works, but you're getting me thinking...

Beams. Can we get a range-band/damage table, for "Point blank", 10%, 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% of calculated distance, or however you do it? Because my point defense beams seem to be the most lethal weapon on some of my ships, and that just seems weird.

Starsector is 2D, but beams are from a 3D world, and applying I = I₀/x^2 penetration scaling led to mining drones popping destroyers just bumping them, which was ridiculous both because they couldn't actually get that close and because the lasers didn't have that much power behind them.  So, I had to come up with my own laser damage equation, I = I₀ / (1 + (x/I₀)^2), which approximates inverse square diffraction at range but quickly flattens to I₀ at x = 0. 

Fun fact: this equation has an analytical inverse, but the sum of two terms of it D = I + E, where the diffracted EMP per second E = E₀ / (1 + (x/E₀)^2), does not.  I will have to invert it numerically.

[Ranakastrasz]

\
I have no idea, but the code must be handling it, I guess! 

Heh. Something you probably should look into at some point admittedly, because I am pretty sure you could get silly results out of it if it works in some ways.

Yeah, I have a whole section on the front page about that.  It's called Possible Future Features and goes on for a while.

Understood. Didn't see that, maybe it was new since I checked the front page, or I am just oblivous.

Honestly, this stuff is so complicated and changes so much and so often that the documentation would end up outdated.  I recommend reading the source code itself, which is included in the mod folder.  All the variables and functions have nice, consistent names, and the code is well-split into intuitively named methods.

True enough. Mostly wanted to know what the rules were "Right Now", even if it changed, because intuition pump. I don't know what weapons are altered or why yet.

Ok, so I take you to mean that more-efficient shields would be 'harder,' and what about current vs max flux?

Yea. I did some thinking on it. Since vanilla, obviously, lacks any "Shield Armor" thing, aside from shield Efficiency, you would have to add something for it. Also, rapidfire weapons have always had a larger proportional effect on shields compared to armor, so having a penetration-damage thing might not work the best.

Arbritrarilly decided, any hits at a 22.5 degree angle are fully effective, rest are deflected. Multiply angle by Efficiency, then Divide by Current/maxflux ratio. So high efficiency shields require straighter hits, and as flux increases, the restriction is loosened again.
You could also probably do something with shield radius, flux capacity, and weapon damage, but honestly, It would be complex to give something useful, when I just want projectiles bouncing off of the side of shield bubbles. XD

Also Storm needler and machinegun and similar weapons intended to take down shields rely on the fact that shields don't have flat DR, so any penetration-based deflection would be problematic.

Oh no, not again...

I believe that Salamanders have a script telling them to approach, orbit around to the back, then steer into the engines. They have a set orbit radius, and that is static, not based on speed/manuverability. As such, if the ratio between maneuverability and speed increases, the smallest possible orbit increases in size, and the salamander just gets stuck in an orbit. It doesn't know how to take a larger orbit to give it time to turn, so it keeps aiming at the ground and missing.... I mean the frigate.

Gunny battles had the Salamander specifically have quad speed and manuverability, (and double range), while all other missiles had quad speed, double manuverabiliy, and double range. Archean order's Bolo missiles may or may not have that problem solved, I dunno.

If you literally got to 90.0000..., yes

That is, probably, a no, unless AOE hits are considered direct hits, which is what I was getting at.

I am open to change about this: I had no idea it even worked out this way.  I think you mean that you find reading, "Damage: 50," thinking, "Aha, so I can penetrate 750 armor rating, but only on a direct shot--gotta get right on..." and then only partially penetrating, to be annoying, right?

Exactly. Except it was more like, Thumper. 100 damage, 25 penertration. Exactly enough to breach a Talon's full armor, at 25. Except no, it only gets a partial penetration. Which, being frag, is still hilariously lethal, because frag deals ~8x as much damage as anything else because frag already has 2-3x damage, and then you added another 4x modifier.

Also, 50 damage, or rather 50 penetration can NEVER damages a 750 armor rating. 750/15 is 50, so partial penetration is also impossible. Which, honestly, I am now fine with, now that I've played around with things a decent amount, and have a good grasp on the basic mechanics.
losive.

Yes, you understood my intention exactly!  Kinetic to get through at all, high explosive to exploit overmatch, two layers of armor, and frag if you have a massive overmatch!  I'm surprised to learn about that intermediate frag layer, though. 

Yea. Frag, honestly, is king right now, because frag weapons tend to have 2-3x damage, which in vanilla is countered by the 1/4th damage mod against anything but hull. Here, Frag hits that would slowly ablate vanilla armor tear into compartments and deal comparable damage to citadel hits. So frag damage hitting compartments can easily shred lighter frigates. Thumper is blocked at 375 armor, but that is above the frigate average. The Flak cannon, assuming it is still 200 damage and the AOE isn't actually a thing, is trumped at 750 armor, and deals 80 damage per hit, which, admittedly, isn't as ridiculous as thumper's own 5 hits of 40 per second. No wonder frigates pop so quickly.

The Assault chaingun is in a similar tier, with 75 damage, Penetration of 56 and 840 armor, and deals 112 or 11 damage per hit, 6.6 per second, for ~660 or ~66 dps. compared to Thumper's 200. Only the Assault Chaingun being able to pierce all frigate armor, and some destroyer armor really enhances it. Which is certainly a thing.

I suppose this might all be intended, but at least in vanilla, Frag weapons were extremely ineffective against armor that even somewhat outclassed them. You had to either hit very light frigates, strip with other weapons, or hose them down for quite some time.

Note that it's not 1/4th penetration but 4x effective armor thickness.  Wait... the Thumper can do that?  I never even knew!  I've gotta try this out before patching it.

Same difference, Right? I mean, a 100 damage weapon having 100/4=25 penetration vs 25 armor, or a 100 damage weapon having 100 penetrationg vs 25x4=100 armor.

Try the first mission. I always use that when trying a balance mod, as well as a bunch of the others. Most of your starting weapons can't even touch the mule, because it's 650 armor is just too strong. Only the Assault chaingun on your wingman can function, but his thumper murders you. Of course, your wingman is immune, but the machineguns cause a long grind til he retreats, if you manage your shield correctly.

The 1/15th is not exact and is just whatever the max tile health is.  You're convincing me to change it, hahaha.

Yea. Dividing by a nice neat 16 makes all the computer nerds happy. On the other hand, only a smaller number of ship end up with a round number matching weapon damage when outer armor divides by 15, so maybe maybe not.

I didn't alter it at all and have no idea how it works, but you're getting me thinking...

Oh no, thinking is dangerous.
But in seriousness, I think that compartment damage, expecially when compartments are intact, should deal extra localized weapon damage, which I think has to be Ionic to work. (or it is EMP? Been playing FTL reciently)
Once compartments are depleted, assume controls have been rerouted or w.e, so the damage bonus goes away.
weird.

Starsector is 2D, but beams are from a 3D world, and applying I = I₀/x^2 penetration scaling led to mining drones popping destroyers just bumping them, which was ridiculous both because they couldn't actually get that close and because the lasers didn't have that much power behind them.  So, I had to come up with my own laser damage equation, I = I₀ / (1 + (x/I₀)^2), which approximates inverse square diffraction at range but quickly flattens to I₀ at x = 0. 

Fun fact: this equation has an analytical inverse, but the sum of two terms of it D = I + E, where the diffracted EMP per second E = E₀ / (1 + (x/E₀)^2), does not.  I will have to invert it numerically.

Nonsense. What happened to all that vertical jinking. You were the one who brought up all the "The Map is 2D, but the real world is 3D" thing

I think you said it maxes range at 10% damage dealt, which occurs at 3x ?Standard? range, so presumably you then have the following
0 = 100%
0.5 = 80%
1 = 50%
1.5 = 30.8%
2 = 20%
2.5 = 13.8%
3 = 10%


Why does the Dynamic range effect beam weapons, when they kinda sorta have instant travel time and perfect accuracy?

[Liral]

Also, have you considered reducing the armor penetration of a projectile based on its time in flight? This would represent ships dynamically angling themselves up or down as they attempt to jink. That said, this might make armor a little too strong. Maybe you could make HE guns fire HESH shells, which largely don't care about impact angle?

That would be really tricky to pull off.  Also, HESH is not favored against modern spall-lined spaced armor.

Also, there are a couple weapons that realistically should ignore impact angle. Most projectile energy weapons, for example the antimatter blaster and plasma cannon, fire what are essentially omnidirectional contact-fused bombs, which definitely don't care about impact angle. The Tachyon Lance, which is described as a charged particle stream more akin to a lightning bolt than a laser, the Mjolnir, which shoots mini singularity shells, and all slow moving HE projectiles e.g Piranha bombs, heavy/light mortar shells - these all probably shouldn't care about impact angle.

Hm, now that you mention it, those weapons might not care about angle.  I don't see any easy way of detecting it, though.

[Liral]

True enough. Mostly wanted to know what the rules were "Right Now", even if it changed, because intuition pump. I don't know what weapons are altered or why yet.

Projectile weapons: longer range, higher muzzle velocity.
-Cannons (i.e., refire delay above threshold): Burst size limited to barrel number, burst delay removed, flux removed if ballistic
-Autocannons: Refire delay changed to burst delay if any, flux replaced with ammo limit added if ballistic
Launchers: longer range, higher speed, greater maneuverability, less so if torpedoes
Lasers: Ridiculous beam speed

Yea. I did some thinking on it. Since vanilla, obviously, lacks any "Shield Armor" thing, aside from shield Efficiency, you would have to add something for it. Also, rapidfire weapons have always had a larger proportional effect on shields compared to armor, so having a penetration-damage thing might not work the best.

Arbritrarilly decided, any hits at a 22.5 degree angle are fully effective, rest are deflected. Multiply angle by Efficiency, then Divide by Current/maxflux ratio. So high efficiency shields require straighter hits, and as flux increases, the restriction is loosened again.
You could also probably do something with shield radius, flux capacity, and weapon damage, but honestly, It would be complex to give something useful, when I just want projectiles bouncing off of the side of shield bubbles. XD

Also Storm needler and machinegun and similar weapons intended to take down shields rely on the fact that shields don't have flat DR, so any penetration-based deflection would be problematic.

Ok, so maybe this isn't a good design direction.

I believe that Salamanders have a script telling them to approach, orbit around to the back, then steer into the engines. They have a set orbit radius, and that is static, not based on speed/manuverability. As such, if the ratio between maneuverability and speed increases, the smallest possible orbit increases in size, and the salamander just gets stuck in an orbit. It doesn't know how to take a larger orbit to give it time to turn, so it keeps aiming at the ground and missing.... I mean the frigate.

Gunny battles had the Salamander specifically have quad speed and manuverability, (and double range), while all other missiles had quad speed, double manuverabiliy, and double range. Archean order's Bolo missiles may or may not have that problem solved, I dunno.

I see... it hasn't done this in every RC version.  I'll have to think about how to fix this--maybe with your top speed / maneuverability ratio idea.

Exactly. Except it was more like, Thumper. 100 damage, 25 penertration. Exactly enough to breach a Talon's full armor, at 25. Except no, it only gets a partial penetration. Which, being frag, is still hilariously lethal, because frag deals ~8x as much damage as anything else because frag already has 2-3x damage, and then you added another 4x modifier.

Oooooh.  I had thought that frag weapons just had higher rates of fire.  They do more damage per shot?  I'll need to dial back the damage multiplier.

Also, 50 damage, or rather 50 penetration can NEVER damages a 750 armor rating. 750/15 is 50, so partial penetration is also impossible. Which, honestly, I am now fine with, now that I've played around with things a decent amount, and have a good grasp on the basic mechanics.
losive.

Ok... if you say so... I just don't wanna make it confusing for people and have been reading about normalization in LRP / EFP cases and thinking that RC needs it!

Yea. Frag, honestly, is king right now, because frag weapons tend to have 2-3x damage, which in vanilla is countered by the 1/4th damage mod against anything but hull. Here, Frag hits that would slowly ablate vanilla armor tear into compartments and deal comparable damage to citadel hits. So frag damage hitting compartments can easily shred lighter frigates. Thumper is blocked at 375 armor, but that is above the frigate average. The Flak cannon, assuming it is still 200 damage and the AOE isn't actually a thing, is trumped at 750 armor, and deals 80 damage per hit, which, admittedly, isn't as ridiculous as thumper's own 5 hits of 40 per second. No wonder frigates pop so quickly.

The Assault chaingun is in a similar tier, with 75 damage, Penetration of 56 and 840 armor, and deals 112 or 11 damage per hit, 6.6 per second, for ~660 or ~66 dps. compared to Thumper's 200. Only the Assault Chaingun being able to pierce all frigate armor, and some destroyer armor really enhances it. Which is certainly a thing.

I suppose this might all be intended, but at least in vanilla, Frag weapons were extremely ineffective against armor that even somewhat outclassed them. You had to either hit very light frigates, strip with other weapons, or hose them down for quite some time.

Oooooooh.  Oh no.  This needs fixing pronto.

Same difference, Right? I mean, a 100 damage weapon having 100/4=25 penetration vs 25 armor, or a 100 damage weapon having 100 penetrationg vs 25x4=100 armor.

110 damage vs 1000 armor still partially penetrates whether multiplied by 0.67 or not, but multiplying the armor by 1/0.67 will make it bounce completely.  Also, I got the multipliers from looking at Steel Beasts armor thicknesses.

Try the first mission. I always use that when trying a balance mod, as well as a bunch of the others. Most of your starting weapons can't even touch the mule, because it's 650 armor is just too strong. Only the Assault chaingun on your wingman can function, but his thumper murders you. Of course, your wingman is immune, but the machineguns cause a long grind til he retreats, if you manage your shield correctly.

I've tried the first mission and just never noticed that myself.  I guess I didn't grasp what was happening.

Yea. Dividing by a nice neat 16 makes all the computer nerds happy. On the other hand, only a smaller number of ship end up with a round number matching weapon damage when outer armor divides by 15, so maybe maybe not.

Pfft, just wait until I make the compartments an even fraction of the hull.  That is, if there were 33 compartments and 875 hull, each compartment would have... 26.5151515151515151...

Oh no, thinking is dangerous.
But in seriousness, I think that compartment damage, expecially when compartments are intact, should deal extra localized weapon damage, which I think has to be Ionic to work. (or it is EMP? Been playing FTL reciently)
Once compartments are depleted, assume controls have been rerouted or w.e, so the damage bonus goes away.
weird.

This makes my head hurt.  What?

Nonsense. What happened to all that vertical jinking. You were the one who brought up all the "The Map is 2D, but the real world is 3D" thing

I think you said it maxes range at 10% damage dealt, which occurs at 3x ?Standard? range, so presumably you then have the following
0 = 100%
0.5 = 80%
1 = 50%
1.5 = 30.8%
2 = 20%
2.5 = 13.8%
3 = 10%

No, it maxes range at 10 flat dps right now.  It will max range at some configurable factor of flux efficiency: that is, where the sum of the diffracted DPS and diffracted EMP divided by the flux per second is for example 0.1.

Why does the Dynamic range effect beam weapons, when they kinda sorta have instant travel time and perfect accuracy?

Because Alex didn't add a function that just affects energy projectile weapons, and I just discovered that I have to apply the one that affects all energy weapons first and then reset beam weapon range. 

[Ranakastrasz]

Projectile weapons: longer range, higher muzzle velocity.
-Cannons (i.e., refire delay above threshold): Burst size limited to barrel number, burst delay removed, flux removed if ballistic
-Autocannons: Refire delay changed to burst delay if any, flux replaced with ammo limit added if ballistic
Launchers: longer range, higher speed, greater maneuverability, less so if torpedoes
Lasers: Ridiculous beam speed

Ah. Understood. Refire delay is standard cooldown, and burst delay is for multishot volly fire stuff.
Presumably Launchers also have their reload removed and ammo counts tweaked.
So Cannons have low ROF, and no windup, while autocannons have the higher ROF, and have limited ammo that regenerates.
And neither ballistic use flux? That doesn't match ingame, so probably misunderstood.

Ok, so maybe this isn't a good design direction.

Quite possibly. Put it on the longterm pile, needs more thought I imagine.

Oooooh.  I had thought that frag weapons just had higher rates of fire.  They do more damage per shot?  I'll need to dial back the damage multiplier.

Well, its not that clearcut. The Vulcan cannon has massive ROF, which also gives it massive DPS for a small weapon.
But Flak Cannon hits for 200 and fires pretty slowly, and the Thumper hits for 100 with excessive DPS of 1.2k for its volly, averaging the same 500 as Vulcan cannon. But in vanilla, not only is damage cut to 1/4th, fragmentation damage generally hit the minimum armor damage threshold, and so only did scratch damage to most frigates, or maybe a bit above. Thumper would have done minimum of 5 armor damage per shot to armor as low as 166. So actually, cutting penetration in half might be about right.

Ok... if you say so... I just don't wanna make it confusing for people and have been reading about normalization in LRP / EFP cases and thinking that RC needs it!

Eh, its your mod, and it can go either way. Do you want perfect shots to penetrate if the weapon is just barely strong enough, or do you want armor to be just barely strong enough to bounce the hit? And honestly, unless you go with 1/16th outer armor, it probably won't happen as oten

Oooooooh.  Oh no.  This needs fixing pronto.

Indeed. Still hilarious though. And given the general Dynamite tag feel, it is pretty cool, but I don't think that was quite the level of instakill you had in mind.

110 damage vs 1000 armor still partially penetrates whether multiplied by 0.67 or not, but multiplying the armor by 1/0.67 will make it bounce completely.  Also, I got the multipliers from looking at Steel Beasts armor thicknesses.

110 damage vs 1000 armor, kinetic damage give your 0.67 factor. 110/0.67~=164.2. 1000 armor, or 1000*0.67 = 670 armor.
110/670 ~= 162/1000 ~= 16.2%. Plus or minus a few rounding errors.
The two are equivalent, so you can think about it either way. I prefer treating Kinetic as having 150% armor penetration and Explosive having 75% armor penetration, but both ways are equivilent, minus rounding errors. 0.67 isn't exactly 2/3rds, so the reciprical isn't 150%, but ~149.2%

I've tried the first mission and just never noticed that myself.  I guess I didn't grasp what was happening.

Yea. Heavy armor protects against the thumper, and I find that the SpeedUp mod, if you enable Bullettime in the config, makes it quite easy to see what is going on.

Pfft, just wait until I make the compartments an even fraction of the hull.  That is, if there were 33 compartments and 875 hull, each compartment would have... 26.5151515151515151...

Sounds about right.

Oh no, thinking is dangerous.
But in seriousness, I think that compartment damage, expecially when compartments are intact, should deal extra localized weapon damage, which I think has to be Ionic to work. (or it is EMP? Been playing FTL reciently)
Once compartments are depleted, assume controls have been rerouted or w.e, so the damage bonus goes away.
weird.

This makes my head hurt.  What?

Probably need to explain better.
Normally, I believe, hull damage or EMP damage dealt locally to a Turret or engine will damage said turret or engine and eventually knock it offline.
My thought was to make it so that when damage is dealt to an intact compartment, to inflict bonus damage to local turrets/engines, so long as the compartment is intact.
Once depleted, it loses that bonus.

Lore-ish wise, I assume Compartments are not just spaced armor or something, but actual rooms/room collections, with a bunch of useful stuff in them, so damaging the compartments will also damage electronics and pipes and so on, which normally feed the weapons or engines or w.e. With them destroyed, the local weapons are probably offline, but once repaired they will be re-routed in some way that you need a lot more damage to take them down, because the controls are probably then in command center and it is running on the hardened backup whatevers.

No, it maxes range at 10 flat dps right now.  It will max range at some configurable factor of flux efficiency: that is, where the sum of the diffracted DPS and diffracted EMP divided by the flux per second is for example 0.1.

Hmm. I think setting it to just stop at 10% effectiveness would make more sense, because while excessive range could be useful, the extreme lack of efficiency hurts and makes them less useful.

I would probably further limit the range of burst lasers, due to their nature, but that is an exception, and those are to be avoided when feasible.

Because Alex didn't add a function that just affects energy projectile weapons, and I just discovered that I have to apply the one that affects all energy weapons first and then reset beam weapon range. 

Ouch. Makes sense though.

-----
Could you add an exclusion for Missile rebalance? As in keep the speed, range, and maneuverability, but not the Ammo changes?

I'm current using a slightly different penetator/damage map.
Kinetic is unchanged, 0.66:0.5
Explosive is 1:1
Frag is 8:2

Also, you might want to look into Advanced Gunnery Control as it seems to control whether weapons are allowed to fire or not. Should be able to ensure weapons don't fire at targets they have no hope of damaging. Though admittedly shells bouncing off it always fun.
I kind of wish Explosively formed penetrators and flak also bounced, even if they self-destruct after a half-second or something. Kinda same for beams and energy bolts, but that is probably a bit complex.

Also, suggest the indicator diamonds include a momentum indicator for your ship.
Also also suggest adding tiny indicator diamonds for small projectiles to increase visibility.

[Liral]

Ah. Understood. Refire delay is standard cooldown, and burst delay is for multishot volly fire stuff.
Presumably Launchers also have their reload removed and ammo counts tweaked.
So Cannons have low ROF, and no windup, while autocannons have the higher ROF, and have limited ammo that regenerates.
And neither ballistic use flux? That doesn't match ingame, so probably misunderstood.

Wait, they still use flux?  Oh nooooo...

Quite possibly. Put it on the longterm pile, needs more thought I imagine.

I suppose so!

Well, its not that clearcut. The Vulcan cannon has massive ROF, which also gives it massive DPS for a small weapon.
But Flak Cannon hits for 200 and fires pretty slowly, and the Thumper hits for 100 with excessive DPS of 1.2k for its volly, averaging the same 500 as Vulcan cannon. But in vanilla, not only is damage cut to 1/4th, fragmentation damage generally hit the minimum armor damage threshold, and so only did scratch damage to most frigates, or maybe a bit above. Thumper would have done minimum of 5 armor damage per shot to armor as low as 166. So actually, cutting penetration in half might be about right.

Ok, I'll move frag down to double damage.

Eh, its your mod, and it can go either way. Do you want perfect shots to penetrate if the weapon is just barely strong enough, or do you want armor to be just barely strong enough to bounce the hit? And honestly, unless you go with 1/16th outer armor, it probably won't happen as oten

Decisions, decisions!

110 damage vs 1000 armor, kinetic damage give your 0.67 factor. 110/0.67~=164.2. 1000 armor, or 1000*0.67 = 670 armor.
110/670 ~= 162/1000 ~= 16.2%. Plus or minus a few rounding errors.
The two are equivalent, so you can think about it either way. I prefer treating Kinetic as having 150% armor penetration and Explosive having 75% armor penetration, but both ways are equivilent, minus rounding errors. 0.67 isn't exactly 2/3rds, so the reciprical isn't 150%, but ~149.2%

Oh... huh.  Ok!

Yea. Heavy armor protects against the thumper, and I find that the SpeedUp mod, if you enable Bullettime in the config, makes it quite easy to see what is going on.

Oooh, thank you!

Probably need to explain better.
Normally, I believe, hull damage or EMP damage dealt locally to a Turret or engine will damage said turret or engine and eventually knock it offline.
My thought was to make it so that when damage is dealt to an intact compartment, to inflict bonus damage to local turrets/engines, so long as the compartment is intact.
Once depleted, it loses that bonus.

Ohhhhhh, I see.  Turret barbettes would be part of the citadel, though.

Lore-ish wise, I assume Compartments are not just spaced armor or something, but actual rooms/room collections, with a bunch of useful stuff in them, so damaging the compartments will also damage electronics and pipes and so on, which normally feed the weapons or engines or w.e. With them destroyed, the local weapons are probably offline, but once repaired they will be re-routed in some way that you need a lot more damage to take them down, because the controls are probably then in command center and it is running on the hardened backup whatevers.

Compartments are all the non-essential stuff: sleeping quarters, docking equipment, sensors, etc.  None of them is necessary alone, but reducing a ship to a bald ball of armor would render it ineffective.

Hmm. I think setting it to just stop at 10% effectiveness would make more sense, because while excessive range could be useful, the extreme lack of efficiency hurts and makes them less useful.

I prefer to use efficiency rather than raw effectiveness because some lasers are cheaper to fire than others.

I would probably further limit the range of burst lasers, due to their nature, but that is an exception, and those are to be avoided when feasible.

I just buff continuous lasers a bunch to make up for it!

Could you add an exclusion for Missile rebalance? As in keep the speed, range, and maneuverability, but not the Ammo changes?

I did it to prevent the swarming missile spam that prevailed in earlier versions, especially from large launchers.  The point-defense missile launcher was one egregious offender.

I'm current using a slightly different penetator/damage map.
Kinetic is unchanged, 0.66:0.5
Explosive is 1:1
Frag is 8:2

I got the explosive armor/damage numbers from Steel Beasts, so I won't change those, but I will change frag to 4x armor thickness, 2x damage.  Note that 2x damage applies after penetration rather than before, so a 100 damage frag hit could penetrate 25x4=100 armor and would deal 200 damage.

Also, you might want to look into Advanced Gunnery Control as it seems to control whether weapons are allowed to fire or not. Should be able to ensure weapons don't fire at targets they have no hope of damaging. Though admittedly shells bouncing off it always fun.

Ooooh, I like this idea.

I kind of wish Explosively formed penetrators and flak also bounced, even if they self-destruct after a half-second or something. Kinda same for beams and energy bolts, but that is probably a bit complex.

Also, suggest the indicator diamonds include a momentum indicator for your ship.

I like this idea!

Also also suggest adding tiny indicator diamonds for small projectiles to increase visibility.

Errr, you mean for bullets?  That could get awfully crowded, but I see your point.

[Ranakastrasz]

Ohhhhhh, I see.  Turret barbettes would be part of the citadel, though.

Compartments are all the non-essential stuff: sleeping quarters, docking equipment, sensors, etc.  None of them is necessary alone, but reducing a ship to a bald ball of armor would render it ineffective.

Makes sense. My model of your model (I think?) was wrong then, so that change doesn't really work.

I prefer to use efficiency rather than raw effectiveness because some lasers are cheaper to fire than others.

So at 10% flux efficiency? Because that does make a bit more sense, I think.

I just buff continuous lasers a bunch to make up for it!

Wut? Its burst lazors that are likely to waste their shots.

I did it to prevent the swarming missile spam that prevailed in earlier versions, especially from large launchers.  The point-defense missile launcher was one egregious offender.

Well, Fix it.
In all seriousness, With point defense buffed massively, because of massive range, Rockets and Torpedos have trouble getting through, and some, like the Swarmer, have significantly less ammo, which given their role of pressuring frigates is kinda problematic. Annilator rocket pods are dumbfire, meaning kinetics, probably, have full range, and again their power largely comes from them being zero-flux with a large magazine. The lack of accuracy is also problematic.

I got the explosive armor/damage numbers from Steel Beasts, so I won't change those, but I will change frag to 4x armor thickness, 2x damage.  Note that 2x damage applies after penetration rather than before, so a 100 damage frag hit could penetrate 25x4=100 armor and would deal 200 damage.

I would write the "penetrate 25x4=100 armor" as "100/4=25 armor" because the conclusion there implies it penetrates 100 armor, rather than 25.
And I still think that you need to cut penetration down further. 8x thickness should ensure that fragmentation is strictly fighter and light frigate. 6x maybe. I mean, unless you want thumper to tear frigates apart, in which case, uhm, I suppose?

Errr, you mean for bullets?  That could get awfully crowded, but I see your point.

Yea. I mean, they would be tiny diamond with the projectile inscribed inside, Red or green, so you can see who owns projectiles (minor) and see the extremely high speed machineguns, or thumper rounds even when zoomed out, and don't end up wondering what exactly cored your ship.

Alternatively, projectile trails for tiny, high speed projectiles, though admittedly even the thumper's trail isn't that big, so that isn't ideal. I mainly want contrast with space.

I could have sworn there was a mod that added that, but it was probably a small part of a larger mod, and I can't find it.

Here is a crappy Mockup. Essentially, the same as the Missile reticles, but for the excessively high speed kinetic projectiles which can still murderize you if you don't notice them.

Spoiler

[close]

[Liral]

Wut? Its burst lazors that are likely to waste their shots.

I don't understand why you think so.

Well, Fix it.
In all seriousness, With point defense buffed massively, because of massive range, Rockets and Torpedos have trouble getting through, and some, like the Swarmer, have significantly less ammo, which given their role of pressuring frigates is kinda problematic. Annilator rocket pods are dumbfire, meaning kinetics, probably, have full range, and again their power largely comes from them being zero-flux with a large magazine. The lack of accuracy is also problematic.

Yep, missiles need more speeeeeeed.

I would write the "penetrate 25x4=100 armor" as "100/4=25 armor" because the conclusion there implies it penetrates 100 armor, rather than 25.
And I still think that you need to cut penetration down further. 8x thickness should ensure that fragmentation is strictly fighter and light frigate. 6x maybe. I mean, unless you want thumper to tear frigates apart, in which case, uhm, I suppose?

Yeah, I see the point there, though is the Thumper only for PD and paper-armor targets?

Yea. I mean, they would be tiny diamond with the projectile inscribed inside, Red or green, so you can see who owns projectiles (minor) and see the extremely high speed machineguns, or thumper rounds even when zoomed out, and don't end up wondering what exactly cored your ship.

Alternatively, projectile trails for tiny, high speed projectiles, though admittedly even the thumper's trail isn't that big, so that isn't ideal. I mainly want contrast with space.

I could have sworn there was a mod that added that, but it was probably a small part of a larger mod, and I can't find it.

Here is a crappy Mockup. Essentially, the same as the Missile reticles, but for the excessively high speed kinetic projectiles which can still murderize you if you don't notice them.

Spoiler

[close]

The tricky/intensive part would be getting all the projectiles, but it's not impossible.

[Ranakastrasz]

I don't understand why you think so.

Well, Burst lasers fire, fire, fire, then have to recharge. If they fire on a distant missile, and due to diffraction, fail to kill it, it has to wait a second or two for more charge to fire again. if it waited for it to get closer, it would have killed said missile.

Regular Beams are continuous, and so, while the intensity increases as the target gets closer, it is only wasting flux with inefficient hits, not ammo.

Yeah, I see the point there, though is the Thumper only for PD and paper-armor targets?

Well, in vanilla, pretty much. Works fine against somewhat armored enemies which have been stripped, but that is still limited to frigates more or less. So yes.

The tricky/intensive part would be getting all the projectiles, but it's not impossible.

Yea. I suspect there is a flag somewhere to add a reticle, which is enabled for all missiles.
Honestly, it would make more sense as a separate mod though. Just that the various mods with tiny, fast projectiles while the game is zoomed out kinda need it because you can't frikkin see the tiny projectiles.

[Luftwaffles]

For the bullet indicators, you could look at whatever the Excelsior from SWP does to put rings around incoming projectiles. It only highlights entities within a certain distance of the player ship, which could help with the screen crowding.

[Bud_p]

First, thx for wonderful mod!
Quick question here, I want to change some config value ,but I find RealisticCombatSettings.json is not a valid JSON format using some online JSON validator.
How should I customize this mod?