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[Amoebka]

But Light Assault Gun is at least good for its size.

Not really a very relevant argument. Weapons don't just compete within their size class. You are never going to use LAG as your anti-armor/hull gun unless the ship has only small ballistic mounts and nothing else (no mediums, no energy, no missiles). And it has to be very few mounts, too, or you will use multiple light mortars instead. There is no actual use case for it.

[Draba]

Like the heavy mortar, I think Heph is decent. Since there is no alternative for cheap/efficient HE DPS in either mount they are useful almost by default.
Neither feels overpowered so a tiny buff wouldn't break anything, but they are certainly not useless/joke weapons.

Hellbore comparison comes up a lot, but I'd recommend watching what a turreted hellbore does and how much damage output it loses to turning/misses.
Heph is just nice at eating up Radiants/derelicts while still being useful against smaller enemies.

In this testing, the best weapon I've found for the Onslaught's center mount is the HAG because I just need to keep gunning down hull as fast as possible, and Mjolnirs cost too much flux.

I like Heph in the middle Onslaught mount, TPCs help out kinetics and when you are surrounded by smaller things Heph going to town is beautiful.
M turrets have lots of very nice kinetic options so main ballistic can easily be HE.

Hmm, maybe I've messed up my math, but Mjolnirs never do as much DPS vs armor as the Hapehestus - I plotted the ratio with the following in Wolfram Alpha:

1 addition is that the Heph is 4 OP cheaper. If you aren't maxed on vents that means it's more efficient than in the comparison, or you can just get some extra boosts elsewhere.

(mortar thread post):
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=24812.msg368897#msg368897

[Grievous69]

Explain why is it cheap/efficient, I just don't see it. And Hellbore comparisons aside, look at the Devastator. Different role but it's so much better at actually doing the HE job. Before the "but it misses half of the shots" argument, don't forget it has 0.5 flux efficiency. You get a weapon that completely shuts down fighters and frigates around you as a bonus (AOE is huge), while HAG can even struggle to hit some frigates.

Is it the worst weapon in the game? Certainly not. But it doesn't deserve to be in such place (it sounds so good).

[Jackundor]

i really want Hephag to be useful... goddamnit... and i just don't see why people say it is rn. You know what's a better anti-armor and anti hull weapon? A high intensety laser. slightly more dps and flux but 500 hit strenght vs armor compared to the 240 of the hephag. And it costs the same OP. And doesn't have to deal with recoil and such. And it has 100 more range. Yes, it doesn't deal hardflux to shields, but why would you use hephag on shields, it'S not even remotely flux efficient. I really like the "doubled damage, halved firerate" sugesstion from SafariJohn, and if that's too strong then you could still look for something between that and the current version that is balanced

[BigBrainEnergy]

Naw, it's worse than that. HIL has 1000 hit strength against armor.

[Draba]

Explain why is it cheap/efficient, I just don't see it. And Hellbore comparisons aside, look at the Devastator. Different role but it's so much better at actually doing the HE job.
...
But it doesn't deserve to be in such place (it sounds so good).

I'm a sucker for devastator, if you look at the link in my post I've already mentioned it's the best comparison to make (not mjollnir).
Heph just has a very nice combo of DPS/range/turn rate/projectile speed/flux-efficiency. Sure, shot strength is the weak point and it's not one of the very best weapons in the game, use is pretty narrow.
Only 2 candidates I like it on are Onslaught mid (when not using storm needler) and 1 Dominator slot paired with IX+2 heavy maulers+2 rangefinder railguns.
Tried basically every Dominator loadout possible and to me that's the most consistently useful, tanky and has enough turreted power with lots of standoff power.
Heph on squall Atlas MkII can also be silly, but the ship is really fragile so full support double gauss seems to work better.

Heph certainly does sound awesome and a minor buff can't really break anything, but don't think it's nearly as bad as it's made out to be.

You know what's a better anti-armor and anti hull weapon? A high intensety laser. slightly more dps and flux but 500 hit strenght vs armor compared to the 240 of the hephag. And it costs the same OP. And doesn't have to deal with recoil and such.

You can't put HIL in a ballisitc slot, can you?
It also has a nasty turnrate+beam extension time problem, on turrets it's really clumsy even with ATG.
I do think HIL is one of the most useful weapons in the game and HIL+squall spam is basically easy mode, but the 2 aren't that easily comparable

Naw, it's worse than that. HIL has 1000 hit strength against armor.

IIRC 500 hit strength: 500 DPS, continuous beam hit strength is half of DPS so 250, multipled by 2 since it's HE.

[Megas]

Not really a very relevant argument. Weapons don't just compete within their size class. You are never going to use LAG as your anti-armor/hull gun unless the ship has only small ballistic mounts and nothing else (no mediums, no energy, no missiles). And it has to be very few mounts, too, or you will use multiple light mortars instead. There is no actual use case for it.

The main reason to use LAG is it can be the only weapon available in its range band for small and medium mounts.  Light Mortar has 600 range, while LAG has 700.  LAG can get range boosts that Heavy Mortar cannot get, so LAG is effectively the 800-900 range small/medium HE weapon.

I have taken LAG when Heavy Mortar did not have enough range and Mauler had too much range (compared to the rest of its weapons) or costs too much OP after I already spent OP to boost Railguns' range.

I can see LAG is being the excuse not to add 800 range medium HE because it can fill that role, even if the player needs to jump through hoops to get it (Rangefinder or ePD+IPDAI).  I would like to see a proper medium 800 range HE gun added.

The only time I use Light Mortar when it compliments a similarly short-ranged kinetic (DLAC, machine guns, longer-ranged kinetic in mount behind HE).

You know what's a better anti-armor and anti hull weapon? A high intensety laser.

Most ships that can use HAG cannot use HIL and vice versa.  Prometheus II is an exception.

I really like the "doubled damage, halved firerate" sugesstion from SafariJohn, and if that's too strong then you could still look for something between that and the current version that is balanced

Doing this would make HAG feel more like a Mjolnir knockoff.  Mjolnir already fires bigger shots at slower rate.

Explain why is it cheap/efficient, I just don't see it. And Hellbore comparisons aside, look at the Devastator. Different role but it's so much better at actually doing the HE job. Before the "but it misses half of the shots" argument, don't forget it has 0.5 flux efficiency. You get a weapon that completely shuts down fighters and frigates around you as a bonus (AOE is huge), while HAG can even struggle to hit some frigates.

Devastator is nice, but it has weaknesses.
* Not enough range without ePD.  (Too many explode before max range.)
* AI may act funny if every other weapon is PD.  (e.g., Conquest will not use broadsides against enemy, other ships may act more timid.)

Devastator also needs recoil reduction, but so does HAG.

[vladokapuh]

But Light Assault Gun is at least good for its size.

i disagree, its only used because there is no other option other than low velocity cheap light mortar.
Low hit strength and rather high flux price considering ships that could want to run it. It does not do much damage even when armor is stripped, only somewhat useful vs frigates.

[BigBrainEnergy]

IIRC 500 hit strength: 500 DPS, continuous beam hit strength is half of DPS so 250, multipled by 2 since it's HE.

I could be wrong here, but last time I checked the in-game tooltip said it was equal to the DPS.

[Jackundor]

IIRC 500 hit strength: 500 DPS, continuous beam hit strength is half of DPS so 250, multipled by 2 since it's HE.

I could be wrong here, but last time I checked the in-game tooltip said it was equal to the DPS.

wiki says beam hit strenght is half of continuous beam dps too

[BigBrainEnergy]

Went to check, and in game it says: The "hit strength" of beam weapons - which do not score separate hits, but deal damage continuously - is based on their damage/second.

It doesn't specifically say "equal" to the dps, it says it's "based on" the dps, but the lack of any additional information makes it sound like that's what it is. If it's half the dps, then it should just say so.

[FooF]

The HAG being “underwhelming” is fair but I still don’t think it’s “bad.” Halving the ROF and doubling the damage/shot would make it a far superior anti-armor option. It would make it a less-accurate continuous-fire Heavy Mauler in practice.

I also want to say that beams do half their DPS against armor for the damage calculation but they register a hit 10x a second. It’s been awhile since I looked at the Armor Guide.

HIL is a decent comparison and of the two, I’d take an HIL over HAG all other things being equal. At least when the HIL stays on target for a second, the armor there is gone. HAG can’t make an opponent pay hard enough for venting or overloading. To put it another way, it can’t exploit opportunities as well as other HE options.

If the HAG was slower firing but heavier hitting, the HE overlap between the HAG and the hypothetical 800-range Medium HE Ballistic wouldn’t be as pronounced. Or at least, there’d be room for it.

[Vanshilar]

Went to check, and in game it says: The "hit strength" of beam weapons - which do not score separate hits, but deal damage continuously - is based on their damage/second.

It doesn't specifically say "equal" to the dps, it says it's "based on" the dps, but the lack of any additional information makes it sound like that's what it is. If it's half the dps, then it should just say so.

Beam weapon hit strength is based on "dpsToHitStrengthMult" found in \starsector-core\data\config\settings.json. Since that's set to 0.5, the hit strength of HIL (500 HE DPS) is 250; against armor, it's doubled, so against armor its hit strength is 500 (and its DPS is 1000).

[SCC]

HAG is decent in a hardpoint and not so decent on a turret. It doesn't help that if you're serious about cracking armour, you're going with the hellbore - if not, you want a mjolnir or a heavy mauler. It might be alright against smaller targets, but it's a similar deal. You either get devastators, or you're not really that concerned. I'm not advocating for anything, though, because I just don't care about HAG at all.

So the Heph always outperforms the mjolnir vs armor, and does so much more flux efficiently.

Unless you use it in a turret. It's slower than mjolnir, but more flux efficient.

I always thought it was fine as a 'general purpose' weapon rather then a tin opener.

But that's mjolnir.

HIL is a decent comparison and of the two, I’d take an HIL over HAG all other things being equal.

Comparing HAG to HIL is a bit rude, since HIL is the best non-missile non-omega anti-armour weapon in the game.

[Igncom1]

I always thought it was fine as a 'general purpose' weapon rather then a tin opener.

But that's mjolnir.

Assuming you can find one, and afford to use it then sure. Not my point.

It does ok at just spamming the enemy with HE shells, and punches down adequately. In my opinion.