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Author Topic: DP vs OP chart  (Read 9105 times)

BigBrainEnergy

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DP vs OP chart
« on: May 31, 2022, 01:16:44 PM »



Old chart:


*New* DP vs large weapon mounts
« Last Edit: June 05, 2022, 12:00:59 PM by BigBrainEnergy »
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Drazan

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2022, 04:22:23 PM »

Legion has a 100 less OP and no heavy ballisitic integration for the same 40 dp as Onslought?
I always had a feeling that it is just plainnworse but compared like this it is just truly awfull.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2022, 04:32:22 PM »

All of the carriers have much less OP than comparable DP warships. It's sort of strange TBH, but I guess Alex has decided fighters are that powerful? Feels like maybe things should be rebalanced so carriers do not need to be so OP starved.
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Hatter

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2022, 04:51:14 PM »

It's a deliberate balance decision, otherwise fighters would be prohibitively expensive
According to the 'Fighter Redesign' blogpost (https://fractalsoftworks.com/2016/08/24/fighter-redesign/):

Quote
Like weapons, fighter LPCs cost ordnance points to install, with better fighters costing more. Each carrier has a number of fighter bays, which limits the number of fighter wings that can be installed.

There’s a bit of a trap here – it’s tempting to balance fighters against other weapons in terms of their cost. If we do this, however, carriers would need an obscene number of ordnance points – to support both fighter bays and normal weapon mounts. But then, a ship that’s ostensibly a carrier could instead invest those points into hullmods, flux vents, capacitors, and so forth – becoming a more effective direct-combat ship. That a carrier should remain powerful while giving up on fighters doesn’t feel right.


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Brainwright

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2022, 05:02:21 PM »

Fighters kind of break the combat script in a hard way.  To the point I start placing mine launchers on some ships.  It's not surprising carriers are nerfed.
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Megas

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2022, 06:27:38 PM »

The one carrier that feels OP starved is Heron.  (Maybe Astral too.)  EDIT:  Condor is also OP starved, but it seems intentionally designed to be an underpowered entry-level option like Gremlin is for phase ships.  (Condor is in the basic starter pack, after all.)

Until recent releases, both Mora and Heron were OP starved (although in Mora's case, only if player wanted missiles).  In one of the 0.95 releases, Mora got +10 OP and can be armed like a battlecarrier as long as the player sticks with midgrade equipment (4 or 5 OP light weapons, medium missiles, and up to 8 OP fighters).  Heron got nothing and is too hard to get a battiecarrier loadout comparable to Mora (sans missiles) with even midgrade equipment until player adds an s-mod or two.  Heron should get the +10 OP boost that Mora got.

Legion has enough OP to work with.  Of the 40 OP capitals, Onslaught seems noticeably stronger than both Legion and Conquest.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 06:31:00 PM by Megas »
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Drazan

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2022, 04:20:16 AM »

I know that carriers have less op beacuse of balance. Problem is that Legion is a battlecarrier and even if armed with 4 bomber (you wont have op for that tho, and the ship system does not support this) it still has a similar role in battle as the Onslaught. Problem is Onslaught is much much better in it.
So either give it ballistic integration/more OP or buff the legion in some other way (more speed and/or armor, better flux stats). An other solution i think is that just straight up reduce its DP cost to around 32-35.
As of now there is few reason to field a Legion over an Onslaught. Which is a shame beacuse i love the asthetics of it and im always so sad to realize that it is a subpar ship.
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Drazan

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2022, 04:24:19 AM »

Right now only Onslaught Astral and Paragon feels like true capitals, they are strong in their respective roleand you can build a fleet around them. Conquest and Legion both feel weak for their DP cost, Conquest at least have ballistic integration the large missiles to act as a support ship, and is fast enough to avoid trouble. Odyssey is good but only beacuse of built in eccm (which you would use on it anyway) but it is just so rare.
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Megas

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2022, 04:35:59 AM »

As of now there is few reason to field a Legion over an Onslaught. Which is a shame beacuse i love the asthetics of it and im always so sad to realize that it is a subpar ship.
I feel the same way about Conquest.  Unless I want to spam large missiles (in which case, I rather have two Gryphons), Onslaught is a better fighting ship.  Conquest seems inferior to Onslaught.  Legion seems comparable in power to Conquest.  Onslaught is the outlier of the 40 DP options.  Since Onslaught feels quite good right now, if there was any nerf to Onslaught, it probably would be a DP raise.  (If I had to guess its power now, Onslaught feels closer to a 50 DP ship.)

I do not use Paragon as much (when I want Ziggurat and/or Radiant in the fleet) because it is balanced at 60 DP.  Balanced is not good enough against overpowered enemies.  I take Onslaught more because it seems slightly overpowered at 40 DP, and overpowered is what the player needs when fighting Tesseracts or double Ordos.
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Igncom1

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2022, 04:48:57 AM »

Looks like LowTech tends to be more DP-OP efficient only occasionally being beaten by Midline in some categories. Hightech looks to be efficient in categories that are often solely occupied by it, but there are exceptions.
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Brainwright

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2022, 06:36:54 AM »

Conquest and Odyssey are a good part of a hammer and anvil strategy, but they are not the anvil.  You need the rest of the fleet to spread out and engage the enemy with these fast ships coming to break the stalemate and finish off the enemy. 

I find they work better than the big bruisers in fast fleets with lots of frigates, as they keep the battle line that typically forms constantly moving.

Though that gets very annoying when the battle line circles around to the top of the map...
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Drazan

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2022, 10:19:02 AM »

Since Onslaught feels quite good right now, if there was any nerf to Onslaught, it probably would be a DP raise.  (If I had to guess its power now, Onslaught feels closer to a 50 DP ship.)

This was my first thought as well, but i dont want Onslaught to be nerfed. In my oppinion it is all right that a 40 dp capital is strong compared to same DP amout of cruisers. Onslaught is there. Legion is not. So the solution is to buff Legion or at least change it so it have a different role.
Conquest is also in need of a buff but at least it has a clearly defined and unique role which it can play perfectly.

As you said we need strong ship aganist endgame content so i do not like the idea to nerf anything.
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Drazan

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2022, 10:29:52 AM »

Conquest and Odyssey are a good part of a hammer and anvil strategy, but they are not the anvil.  You need the rest of the fleet to spread out and engage the enemy with these fast ships coming to break the stalemate and finish off the enemy. 

I find they work better than the big bruisers in fast fleets with lots of frigates, as they keep the battle line that typically forms constantly moving.

Though that gets very annoying when the battle line circles around to the top of the map...

I dont think frigates can form a battleline aganist any lategame fleet but yeah, Ody and Conquest have a role in a fleet.
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BigBrainEnergy

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2022, 10:39:33 AM »

I'm gonna defend the conquest here. It's much fast than an onslaught at 45 base speed instead of 25, and while burn drive is faster in a straight line I would say maneuvering thrusters is better overall due to its versatility.

But you already knew that.

What the conquest doesn't get enough credit for is its DISSIPATION. Its base dissipation is twice that of the onslaught, full stop. 1200 vs 600. Even slapping on 50 vents only nets you 500 dissipation, so this difference is massive.

This lets the conquest field flux hungry weapons like the gauss cannon much easier, while also having enough agility that you can't pin it down. AND it has 2 large missile slots, which is the best weapon type in the game as far as I can tell.

Something you should consider doing is stacking up ballistic mastery and gunnery implants with your gauss cannon, then adding unstable injectors. The range of your weapons drops from 2220 to 1887, which still outranges almost anything, but that 15 speed brings you up to 60 which is comparable to cruisers BEFORE you use maneuvering thrusters. Grab coordinated maneuvers and slap some officers into a couple monitors and you can easily max out your nav rating. With max CR and helmsmanship this adds up to a 40% speed boost, plus another flat 5 for the elite effect of helmsmanship.

83 speed. On a ship with 1887 range kinetics and 2 hurricanes. And it has maneuvering thrusters.

The conquest is really good in its niche, but you're never going to see the AI bring out that potential. The AI is much better at handling a straightforward battleship like the onslaught than it is a battlecruiser, even if it's a really good one.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 10:49:24 AM by BigBrainEnergy »
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Grievous69

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Re: DP vs OP chart
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2022, 11:48:06 PM »

Conquest is fine what are you on about? Naturally it's not going to perform as well as battleships in AI hands, all battlecruisers are like that since their main thing is mobility. Odyssey is in the same boat.

Base Legion does need some help (I know it got hull buffs), I tried various builds and it always ended up lacking.
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