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[The2nd]

Right? Right???

Sorry to add to the 60%

It's all good, though; I'm not really that surprised by the reaction, and I understand it, but I think the reasons for doing it this way are good.

I think part of the reason why there is such a big reaction is that people (including me) really like the XVI hulls and the concept behind it. So it's a disappointment that the Lions Guard doesn't provide something similar. Although I have to say that subverting player expectations and creating gameplay driven wordbuilding is pretty neat.

What I would wish for are more faction themed special hulls. I think the reaction in this thread shows that I am not alone. If it's slightly worse than the base version it feels bad to use and if there is an slightly better version it feels good to have. Regardless of a theoretically very minor gameplay impact. So these hulls are a perfect player reward without compromising balance?

Like a premium line of Tri-Tachyon ships with very minor stat improvements which are rare and unreasonably expensive? They could be given as faction quest rewards or offered by contacts etc.

The only downside would be a bit of bloat.   

[Grievous69]

I'd honestly really not like having a bunch of variants of existing ships with slight stat adjustments. Yeah that's cool here and there but I think it's currently neat precisely because it's used so sparingly.

[Twilight Sentinel]

Maybe the SD stuff should have been shoved into a different blog post or thread to isolate it from the rest of the discussion since it is a fairly minor part of the game?

That being said, I'll echo an earlier suggestion that the LG ships could come with S-mods preinstalled on them.  The guard is all about having the elite of the elite ships, so why not have this as a means of making them feel more distinct?  It's also a bit of good and bad since those S-mods are more than likely going to be suboptimal choices that players wouldn't want on their endgame ships.

This also brings up an interesting option for the 14th battlegroup ships.  What if the built in hullmod for those *was* a s-mod?  They'd still have some serious power over the default stock ships, but come with the downside of allowing one fewer S-mod in them.  As an interesting way to give them a minor nerf compared to the stock variants.

[DaShiv]

This also brings up an interesting option for the 14th battlegroup ships.  What if the built in hullmod for those *was* a s-mod?  They'd still have some serious power over the default stock ships, but come with the downside of allowing one fewer S-mod in them.  As an interesting way to give them a minor nerf compared to the stock variants.

I'd think it'd be reasonable for both the XIV and LP built-in SO hullmods to take up s-mod slots that are retained upon salvage, assuming the XIV hullmod also loses its speed/maneuverability malus. This would temper expectations for players that "faction ships = better" instead of being sidegrades/possible downgrades.

[Megas]

Probably be better to remove faction skins from combat ships when more of them are becoming exclusive ships for a faction.

[Billhartnell]

on the flipside, being an admiral does not necessarily imply any degree of competence in naval matters - one could easily advance up the ranks through some combination of charisma, politics, and patronage.

One of my favorite real-life examples; Miklos Horthy, Hungarian regent-slash-dictator, who was an admiral in the Austro-Hungarian Navy, back when Austria and Hungary had... a coastline, who had a distinctly mediocre record that consisted mostly of 'not losing'.

Or Ernest King, who rose to Fleet Admiral without ever commanding ships in battle at sea, drank heavily, and was frequently described as stupid and bullying (you can find numerous unflattering and hilarious comments about him by plenty of public figures; FDR once joked that King 'shaved every morning with a blowtorch').

The less said about David Beatty, the better. Dumb, sloppy, self-aggrandizing, indisciplined... and the longest serving First Sea Lord in the history of the Royal Navy.

This is just off the top of my head; it's easy to find more examples.

To be fair King had some redeeming qualities which explained his high position, if Drachinifel's video on him is to be believed. He was a skilled reformer who brought the US navy from a negligible force that was all but disbanded in the late Gilded Age to the victors of the Pacific War, and despite his infamous temper and tendency to pick fights with his superiors he rose quite rapidly through the ranks for the time. No clue about the others though. So someone like Andrada should also have some qualities that explains his rise to power in addition to his fatal flaws, we've been given hints of his shrewd politicking, maybe he was a master of intrigue who engineered the victory that made him "the Lion" weeks before any ships were deployed. He did pick his star system well at any rate, even if he usually gets conquered in the first 4 years in Nerexelin.

[Harmful Mechanic]

on the flipside, being an admiral does not necessarily imply any degree of competence in naval matters - one could easily advance up the ranks through some combination of charisma, politics, and patronage.

One of my favorite real-life examples; Miklos Horthy, Hungarian regent-slash-dictator, who was an admiral in the Austro-Hungarian Navy, back when Austria and Hungary had... a coastline, who had a distinctly mediocre record that consisted mostly of 'not losing'.

Or Ernest King, who rose to Fleet Admiral without ever commanding ships in battle at sea, drank heavily, and was frequently described as stupid and bullying (you can find numerous unflattering and hilarious comments about him by plenty of public figures; FDR once joked that King 'shaved every morning with a blowtorch').

The less said about David Beatty, the better. Dumb, sloppy, self-aggrandizing, indisciplined... and the longest serving First Sea Lord in the history of the Royal Navy.

This is just off the top of my head; it's easy to find more examples.

To be fair King had some redeeming qualities which explained his high position, if Drachinifel's video on him is to be believed. He was a skilled reformer who brought the US navy from a negligible force that was all but disbanded in the late Gilded Age to the victors of the Pacific War, and despite his infamous temper and tendency to pick fights with his superiors he rose quite rapidly through the ranks for the time.

It's rare that someone makes it to flag rank without having *some* kind of redeeming quality. But you'd be amazed how often 'good with ships and proficient at strategy, operations, tactics, or even marksmanship' isn't on the must-have list.

[THEASD]

Is Standard Bomb Bay still didn't get a SYSTEM and will appear in mission's loadout weapon pool?

[nukularpower]

Just a random thought, but as someone who can't play with mods anymore, I don't understand why new ships seem to be added so conservatively - I came back to this game after many years away and could hardly see a difference in the ship roster (without mods, as I said.) 

I'd really like to see more unique ships all around - one battleship is great and all, but thats like, a drop of water to me!

Regarding the SD, I'd much rather see a focus on a doctrinal insistence on certain tactics/loadouts rather than "flashy but useless."   Solar shielding?   meh.   I'm thinking more like the Empire in Star Wars with its focus on crappy Ties and big guns, etc - unique systems and that sort of thing maybe.   I don't know, this is a neat idea I guess, but it seems pretty boring all in all.   

Last note in regards to the Orion Drive, my introduction to the concept was the book Anathem by Neil Stephenson - highly recommend

[Grievous69]

Whaaaaat? Bro there's like 5 capitals coming in, along with some other ships. If anything I feel like there's been way more new ships in the last 3 patches than in the 3 patches before those. I'm all for new content don't get me wrong, but I'd prefer to see a 1.0 version before I get old and senile. And also you get to a point where new ships are just bloat, with dozens of flavours of a single thing. Which is also why I dislike playing with mods usually.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing more goofy and wacky ships in the far future.

[Delta_of_Isaire]

This also brings up an interesting option for the 14th battlegroup ships.  What if the built in hullmod for those *was* a s-mod?  They'd still have some serious power over the default stock ships, but come with the downside of allowing one fewer S-mod in them.  As an interesting way to give them a minor nerf compared to the stock variants.

I'd think it'd be reasonable for both the XIV and LP built-in SO hullmods to take up s-mod slots that are retained upon salvage, assuming the XIV hullmod also loses its speed/maneuverability malus. This would temper expectations for players that "faction ships = better" instead of being sidegrades/possible downgrades.

That actually sounds like a really good idea, making these hullmods occupy an S-mod slot.


Some folks have been skeptical of the Executor so let's have a look at it, and compare it to Pegasus. Both ships lend themselves very well to long-range fire support. 5x HVD is the same DPS as 2 Gauss Cannons, but for only 875 flux/sec instead of 1200. And 200 less range, but 1000 range is still good, particularly with the mounts being placed forward on the hull. Then add 4 Graviton beams for 800 soft-flux shield pressure, costing only 300 flux/sec to fire. Then we're at 1175 flux/sec. At 200 for shield upkeep and you get 1375 flux/sec. For the Executor we can then add two Tachyon Lances for 924 flux/sec, bringing the total to 2299 flux/sec (2099 without shields). All told, the Executor is right up there with Paragon and Conquest in terms of potential long-range gun firepower.

Provided it has the dissipation to power these weapons. How much dissipation do these ships have? The Pegasus screenshot shows 1438 dissipation. But that can be increased with 5 more vents and Flux Distributor, bringing it up to at least 1638. By analyzing both the Pegasus and Executor outfit screenshots more deeply we can maybe get more accurate. The Executor has a lvl 1 officer and 60 speed at 71% CR, while the Pegasus has 52 speed at 79% CR. That is consistent with a base speed of 50 and the Executor having Elite Helmsmanship - and therefore not having ordnance expertise. Additionally, The Executor's flux capacity is highlighted green despite having 0 capacitors, which suggests fleetwide flux regulation. Then, the 815 dissipation with 34 vents suggests base dissipation of 450. So. 450 base dissipation, + 45 from flux regulation, + 550 from vents, +150 from flux distributor, + ~400 from ordnance expertise. That is 1595 total dissipation for the Executor.

Now 1595 is not 2099 to fully support the weapons package, but it isn't too terrible. For reference, an Eagle (XIV) tops out at about 1350 dissipation. The Executor is a cut above cruiser-level flux.

Of course the real question is whether 2x large energy is better or worse than 2x large missile. Given Fast Missile Racks, as long as the ammo lasts missiles will undoubtedly be better. But what if ammo does not last? Then the Executor may have the advantage, particularly for long-range weapon builds.

[Ruddygreat]

Of course the real question is whether 2x large energy is better or worse than 2x large missile. Given Fast Missile Racks, as long as the ammo lasts missiles will undoubtedly be better. But what if ammo does not last? Then the Executor may have the advantage, particularly for long-range weapon builds.

4 large missiles is definitely gonna be better for bursting down enemies (and potentially better overall because of it), squalls w/ emr last for a little over 2 mins of constant fire (ignoring fmr because I can't remember the bonus rn) + fmr to up their burst considerably, albeit by reducing sustained firepower.
Combine that w/ like 5 heavy maulers, 2 ion beams and 2 gravs (or 2 autolances?) & it'll probably be an incredible capable cap-buster but mediocre line holder.
Then for the executor you'll have to run a much more conventional build that's better suited as a fleet anchor, smth like 5 hvds / 4 gravs / 2 hils / 2 hurricanes (or dragonfires), ending with a reliable but boring (to pilot) brick.

I also had a thought about the new remnant ships - will the automated ships skill get a small rebalance to make the mid-size stuff more attractive to use?
for now the 2 "meta" builds are basically opposite to eachother, you either get one alpha'd radiant or many gamma'd glimmers w/ wolfpack, leaving cruisers + destroyers in an awkward middleground where you can't bring that many to the field or put any real buffs into them.
I've not put too much thought into actually solving the problem, but the first thing that came to mind was some kinda additional multipier to auto ship points based on the number of ships you have in a given size class- as you get more, it gets exponentially harder for your technicians to corral them (or something like that)- basically something to discourage spamming a certain class, but to still let it happen if you can stack enough CR bonuses. 

EDIT : oops, forgot that 2 of the med mounts were hybrid and borked the potential loadouts

[Amoebka]

The current multiplier system works well to incentivize middle-sized remnant ships. The reasons players stay away from them is mostly the officer personality being locked to "suicidal", which is only manageable for Radiant (because it's overpowered enough to get away with it) and frigates (losses matter less).
Brilliant and Nova having forward-only mobility systems on fearless ships is even more concerning to me. It basically makes them unusable in player fleets, while terribly frustrating to fight against.
I really hope we get to choose core personalities somehow. Fearless only hurts build variety enormously.

[Megas]

I also had a thought about the new remnant ships - will the automated ships skill get a small rebalance to make the mid-size stuff more attractive to use?
for now the 2 "meta" builds are basically opposite to eachother, you either get one alpha'd radiant or many gamma'd glimmers w/ wolfpack, leaving cruisers + destroyers in an awkward middleground where you can't bring that many to the field or put any real buffs into them.

The problem is most automated ships are mediocre.  They are propped up by unfair capitals (Radiant or Guardian) when used by the enemy and AI core spam.  While Radiant is balanced enough, Guardian still costs 40 DP, which is too low and a big deal when fighting them in contact bounties.

Fulgent is mediocre, no mobility and no shot range.  Scintilla has a weak system, weak mounts, and cannot use human fighters.  Brilliant is unremarkable for its DP cost.

The Derelicts are rubbish too, except Rampart, which is pretty good for its cost.  I will take a Dominator knockoff that costs 15 DP instead of 25 DP.  But Derelicts are not as easy to farm as Ordos.

EDIT:  And Fearless works well with Rampart.  Rampart wants to get close to the enemy and pound them with Mark IXs and Cyclone Reapers.  It can get up to about 2000 armor.  Combined with three heavy weapons, it is a cheap brick and hammer.  It definitely needs the same max armor treatment typically given to Vanguards.  And with Rugged Construction, it is often not a big deal if it dies.

[DaShiv]

I also had a thought about the new remnant ships - will the automated ships skill get a small rebalance to make the mid-size stuff more attractive to use?
for now the 2 "meta" builds are basically opposite to eachother, you either get one alpha'd radiant or many gamma'd glimmers w/ wolfpack, leaving cruisers + destroyers in an awkward middleground where you can't bring that many to the field or put any real buffs into them.

This has less to do with the Automated Ship skill or how it scales, and more to do with the fact that Brilliants, Fulgents, Scintillas, and Lumens in their current state are bad ships compared to their non-Automated alternatives. Whereas Radiants and Glimmers simply outperform other ships in their size class on a per-DP basis.

Buff the underperforming Remnant ships to perform closer to Radiant/Glimmer level and you'll find lots of players suddenly start using them, without any changes to the Automated Ships skill.