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[Dazs]

Well hello again, always good to hear from you. I feel you have caught my TLDR disease but allow me to increase the eye strain.

You know, I was thinking of putting a note in that the Knarr could probably work for a explorer start, and now you come in with one.
I'm gonna pretend it's cause I said so and you can't tell me otherwise!

I see you.

That was the exact gun I meant, so you were on the ball with interpreting my 'I need to get it out of my head so I can sleep ramblings.'.

I SEE YOU!

Meanwhile having played with the gun more I look forward to trying out it's change as I've been having fun combining it with various Ion weapons. Bar the Heavy Ion Canon from a different mod I've tended towards a fleet composition that's a sort of static gun line of disabling that slowly pulls ships out of position and then mines them like asteroids.

When I balance a ship I only combine the factions weapons with vanilla weapons. There are so many modded weapons out there, and lord knows I am guilty of that, you could really make an unbalanced ship combining weapons from different mods that the author has not intended/considered.

Gives me a fun head canon of Pirates/etc coming fighting, and then since combat based on the NPC combat time taking days, becoming 'aggressive mining actions' with enemy crew having to debate trying to engage in repairs and resisting, or desperately broadcasting their surrender or attempting to mutiny...

Ooo maybe I'll add a "fun head cannon" to the weapon lineup, thanks for the idea  

But Starsector doesn't model morale so it ends up with the super dark images that I'll not share.

There is sort of a morale mechanic when NPC ships take a look around the deployed battlefield wreckage and NOPE the heck out so insert that into your dark images. But yea, keep them to yourself this is a family friendly mod after all.

A less dark version does exist using the explosive mining weapons making the process much faster but allowing them to fight back.

Less dark is good, you are making progress.

I've also recently figured out something I can do to counter the fact I tend to mine much faster than my holds can keep up by putting Converted Fighter Bays on my Danubes. Tanks their mining ability and makes them actual freighters as far as combat ability goes, but now they also don't tank fighter skill abilities while also being super easy to unconvert into combat vessels if I take losses. I really should have realised this sooner and makes fighter's more useful without just using inbuilt drones.

May I suggest a little utility mod: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=22882.0

Also, something I've noticed is that a Cutty and a Odam largely fill similar roles at different stages of the game, without the Odam gaining additional combat power.
Odam and Cutty both can effectively manage 6 small weapon slots, with Odam putting it's PD on fighters (Which the AI knows how to give to others which is neat.). The Odam is already built to be a tank and has a much larger flux pool, but as a destroyer the Cutty is much faster and with it's built in and investment in shield mods can also tank against cruisers (Though it needs to run and vent much sooner... But it has a ability that lets it do that.)

Well I made them at roughly the same time and I guess I had a progression scaling in my head. Oh and the Odam is a personal favorite

It may be worth considering up-arming the Odam. I'm not a modeller so I'm not sure how painful if any adjustments would be, but I think changing the front to 1 central medium, or changing the side kinetics/energy to 2 mediums and 2 smalls (Either 1 of each on one side to make it 'lop sided' like the bigger Apogee it's a sized down cousin of, or maintaining it's pleasing symmetry', might help it not feel as toothless and make the comparison less apt).
It also means Stabalised Shields becomes a necessary to fulling arming it instead of a nice convenience though unless venting is adjusted, but I don't feel it should as it means you have the choice of making it a greatly balanced tank or a more combat capable pocket cruiser.

Scaled Down Apogee pocket cruiser is a pretty accurate description of what I was going for. I can take a stab and implementing your suggestions and I am not opposed to non-symmetrical ships so I'll consider that as well.

Anyhow, I've been running .97 on a bunch of pre .97 mods, so with this updating I'm going to do a round of updating and restarting my campaign... Also gets me out of playing around in a high-remnant system as my first settle because deciding using Salvage Yards (Industrial evo) to double up on the loot was a silly and annoying idea that I wasn't really equipped for, though it turns out a Vasa and a High Tech level 2 station is pretty good at.

Nice to hear the Vasa is useful. I personally do not use phase ships so they are made from an inexperienced standpoint but I did try to make the ones I mod have a niche role.

Edit:

Also, thought that probably goes on the 'pain in the ass to implement' pile and is purely a pipe dream, how feasible would varients design of Carter ships be that rely on JYD's being installed work to symbolise the factions cooperating?
Totally not just because JYD Missiles fit my prefered missile style (Still alpha strike but can reload), and that JYD bomber drones are sweet.

I do have my playable faction mods set to be friendly at start though that will change over time. JYD and CFT are both neutralist factions so they should remain friendly for some time and Dazs lore wise they cooperated to make CJHM. Speaking of 'pain in the ass to implement' ideas, I have tinkered with combining all my mods into one mega mod with the intent of TTSC, CFT and JYD vs Hiver as the goal. But then I woke up and realized I am not that smart.

Lastly, I'm on a well earned vacation for a month. While it won't be fully empty I will be more active than usual. Now I just need to actually learn to program and I could do more than provide suggestions

I learned by reading the admittedly outdated guides posted on the forum and discord as a start. I then looked over existing mods for examples of how it all ties together. It took some time but eventually I had the basics of JYD ready to post a test release in the modding forum. I keep my mods open with no compression so feel free to scrounge around in them with a java editor. I use notepad++ but mod authors have told me I am insane to not use an actual java editor so maybe not for you. Lastly, just sit down and do it and be brave and ready to receive feedback and criticism once it is released.

[5ColouredWalker]

If It's not responded to here, then I either have nothing to say or a smilie  ... And I may have had a bit to say in some parts due to thinking and trying to be comprehensive.

I SEE YOU!

But more seriously, just opened up, it's a little odd that for the exploration start neither have surveying equipment, but they are salvagers with tons of sensor range.
It also works ok with Nex Rerolls, Dow Phase Tender comes up a lot which is a nice stealth logistics start for smuggling/spysat deployment. Odam can also show up for Surveying [After this run I might try Dow/Odam]... Rolling a bunch the Knar hasn't come up which feels odd given the Arethusa does, but I've got no clue how Nex handles that. Checking the ships they're both capitals which feels like a big thing to start with, but I'll give it go. Start with a tour of Pegersick and Dogstar as a Captain start for a super fast start and I'll give a report on how it feels. Captain will let me fill out my Industry/Tech mandatories (Cargo/Salvaging/Containment/Makeshift/Sensor/Navigation), funds will allow purchasing for a frigate/destroyer accompaniment.
Edit: With said skills fuel range and supply cost is actually very reasonable, and would probably be ok even without them.

Meanwhile having played with the gun more I look forward to trying out it's change as I've been having fun combining it with various Ion weapons. Bar the Heavy Ion Canon from a different mod I've tended towards a fleet composition that's a sort of static gun line of disabling that slowly pulls ships out of position and then mines them like asteroids.

When I balance a ship I only combine the factions weapons with vanilla weapons. There are so many modded weapons out there, and lord knows I am guilty of that, you could really make an unbalanced ship combining weapons from different mods that the author has not intended/considered.

Oh, totally not a 'Something to consider for balance' matter, more a 'something fun you might enjoy hearing'.
And saying this and remembering earlier posts statements has me going on a slight 'rant':

To be totally honest at present the only thing in this one I'd consider overpowered are the Tender Mining Drones and how easy it can be to spam them [4 OP for a decent drone with a good high ex weapon. Should probably be costed closer to a broadsword in the 8-10 range], and that's been made harder with Danube becoming more reasonably costed (Though that doesn't really effect AI. I did a scroll through the discord, apparently others hate fighting against the fighter swarms... I haven't had trouble, and that's without bringing my own, but I haven't done a dedicated fight against run). The OP budget is a bit generous for some but that's intentional, the rest feels a mixed of balanced and 'this is how the faction plays'. Most weapons are rapid fire and suck at dealing with armor (Almost everything including the missiles are low individual damage high rate of fire, and the ships themselves trend towards smaller mounts), and tend to be flux hungry. In my hands Carter fleets do well against high tech fleets, ok against midline, and manage against low tech due to the fact that if it's not hegemony they're fighting trash (Tender drones absolutely wreck Derelicts and Pirates are Pirates) and if it hegemony/modded they're in for a bad time or you're a player cheesing the AI. Carter PD also feels poor (Energy PD is fine, kinetic PD feels too flux inneficient and has the same 'high dps low single shot damage' almost all Carter weapons have) and most ships aren't particularly fast (trending towards slow), being reliant on anchor ships, so if you're fighting a Carter fleet that isn't packing a large droneswarm then your own carriers/missiles will trash a Carter's fleet.

I've recently picked up a mod that adds fortified Caches (Random faction fleet guarding, size depends on cache size). In particular using a 'Ruthless Sector thinks this is balanced' DP comparison VIC has humbled me, and that mod while definitely Vanilla + previously from memory has more recently trended to Vanilla balance + Weird toys from more recent interaction.

Gives me a fun head canon of Pirates/etc coming fighting, and then since combat based on the NPC combat time taking days, becoming 'aggressive mining actions' with enemy crew having to debate trying to engage in repairs and resisting, or desperately broadcasting their surrender or attempting to mutiny...

Ooo maybe I'll add a "fun head cannon" to the weapon lineup, thanks for the idea

In that case if you're following the ion idea, there's no need to make a medium size one unless you want to, and given how Carter ships are armed I'd suggest a small shield penetrator...
Actually, if you use PD weapons offensively (Which from memory is totally viable), JYD provides everything except shield penetration. I think PD Prep is from your mods too so it works entirely within the 'Dazs Mods' ecosystem... Speaking of which I may pick up the ones I'm missing, particularly since Nex has added a 'No Invasions until X' setting. I'll try it after this one for a round where Hivers are less omni-present early.
 

I've also recently figured out something I can do to counter the fact I tend to mine much faster than my holds can keep up by putting Converted Fighter Bays on my Danubes. Tanks their mining ability and makes them actual freighters as far as combat ability goes, but now they also don't tank fighter skill abilities while also being super easy to unconvert into combat vessels if I take losses. I really should have realised this sooner and makes fighter's more useful without just using inbuilt drones.

May I suggest a little utility mod: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=22882.0

Actively used!
It is easy to overfill though when a haul brings in 2-5000 Ore + extra Rare/Volotiles when mining Volcanic/Cryovolcanic worlds with what I'd consider a early-midgame fleet. Normally I'll quickly mine through 8-4 times stripping the planet for a while then wait around a couple of in game days chewing through it. Fortuneately Carter's ship's Salvage Bays cause processing to be faster, though it doesn't quite line up with Carter's mining speed.
I'm not sure how that could be balanced due to using Salvage to determine processing speed without creating an additional hull mod for the mod or Carter's or just nerfing the mining power of Carter's equipment (Which is something you could reasonably consider). But taking time is a balancing factor I feel, and speed up mod goes up to 24* if I really don't want to wait, not that my computer can really handle more than 4*. (Though I'm about to try someone's work around to manage JRE-23, which will be interesting)

Also, something I've noticed is that a Cutty and a Odam largely fill similar roles at different stages of the game, without the Odam gaining additional combat power.
Odam and Cutty both can effectively manage 6 small weapon slots, with Odam putting it's PD on fighters (Which the AI knows how to give to others which is neat.). The Odam is already built to be a tank and has a much larger flux pool, but as a destroyer the Cutty is much faster and with it's built in and investment in shield mods can also tank against cruisers (Though it needs to run and vent much sooner... But it has a ability that lets it do that.)

Well I made them at roughly the same time and I guess I had a progression scaling in my head. Oh and the Odam is a personal favorite

In that case if it weren't for my thought just below I'd say you did perfectly. They're both tanks, and with investment they both have the 360 degree shields and good PD coverage to make line holders.

It may be worth considering up-arming the Odam. I'm not a modeller so I'm not sure how painful if any adjustments would be, but I think changing the front to 1 central medium, or changing the side kinetics/energy to 2 mediums and 2 smalls (Either 1 of each on one side to make it 'lop sided' like the bigger Apogee it's a sized down cousin of, or maintaining it's pleasing symmetry', might help it not feel as toothless and make the comparison less apt).
It also means Stabalised Shields becomes a necessary to fulling arming it instead of a nice convenience though unless venting is adjusted, but I don't feel it should as it means you have the choice of making it a greatly balanced tank or a more combat capable pocket cruiser.

Scaled Down Apogee pocket cruiser is a pretty accurate description of what I was going for. I can take a stab and implementing your suggestions and I am not opposed to non-symmetrical ships so I'll consider that as well.

To be honest I was more thinking 'What's a variety of options so I can reduce mental labour', and prefer symmetrical. I will hold off on saying more because I don't want to push you either way.

But then I woke up and realized I am not that smart.

Hey now! You're managing multiple mods and presumably life around it, showing plenty of smarts and talent.
Or at the very least lots of dedication. I know I get told I'm smart often enough by peers only to not feel it.

Lastly, I'm on a well earned vacation for a month. While it won't be fully empty I will be more active than usual. Now I just need to actually learn to program and I could do more than provide suggestions

I learned by reading the admittedly outdated guides posted on the forum and discord as a start. I then looked over existing mods for examples of how it all ties together. It took some time but eventually I had the basics of JYD ready to post a test release in the modding forum. I keep my mods open with no compression so feel free to scrounge around in them with a java editor. I use notepad++ but mod authors have told me I am insane to not use an actual java editor so maybe not for you. Lastly, just sit down and do it and be brave and ready to receive feedback and criticism once it is released.
[/quote]

I have the time, so I may well try.
If nothing it might go better than me thinking 'It'd be nice if Archaeon Order was compatible with other factions', downloading all the tools, then looking at them and immediately being overwhelmed.

[Dazs]

So I had to run an errand before I got started on an update I am working on for CJHM and when I got back home I checked my email first and found two additional topic replies. I immediately made a second pot of coffee when I saw who they were from. 

But more seriously, just opened up, it's a little odd that for the exploration start neither have surveying equipment, but they are salvagers with tons of sensor range.

Hmm good point. I guess I did not put survey equipment on them because I got a lot of flak about JYD having so many built in hull mods. Not that that is a reason to not do it, just how I was thinking at the time.

It also works ok with Nex Rerolls, Dow Phase Tender comes up a lot which is a nice stealth logistics start for smuggling/spysat deployment. Odam can also show up for Surveying [After this run I might try Dow/Odam]... Rolling a bunch the Knar hasn't come up which feels odd given the Arethusa does, but I've got no clue how Nex handles that.
Edit: With said skills fuel range and supply cost is actually very reasonable, and would probably be ok even without them.

The mod author decides what default ship roles each ship has, then Nex uses those designations as a picking pool. I can certainly look at the Knarr and see if it makes sense to place it in the same pool as the Arethusa. Also, if you look at the bottom of the pick ship start list there is an option for custom start. Press that and you can pick any assortment of ships from across the modiverse. Though know that Nexerelin WILL shame you if you pick too many credits worth of ships to start with.

Checking the ships they're both capitals which feels like a big thing to start with, but I'll give it go. Start with a tour of Pegersick and Dogstar as a Captain start for a super fast start and I'll give a report on how it feels. Captain will let me fill out my Industry/Tech mandatories (Cargo/Salvaging/Containment/Makeshift/Sensor/Navigation), funds will allow purchasing for a frigate/destroyer accompaniment.
Edit: With said skills fuel range and supply cost is actually very reasonable, and would probably be ok even without them.

Well I wanted to put the Arethusa in one of the starting options and when I saw the Bolster sitting there all alone, it sort of made sense to pair them since the Bolster has minimal offensive capability for its size. I am limited in the amount of game starts I can add to that screen but a medium explorer start sounds like a good idea if I can implement it. I'll certainly explore the idea when I have time.

Oh, totally not a 'Something to consider for balance' matter, more a 'something fun you might enjoy hearing'.
And saying this and remembering earlier posts statements has me going on a slight 'rant':

Well as I stated earlier, we both seem to suffer from TLDR syndrome. Though this is a public forum, I doubt anyone else reads our posts so keep it coming, I enjoy our correspondence. 

To be totally honest at present the only thing in this one I'd consider overpowered are the Tender Mining Drones and how easy it can be to spam them [4 OP for a decent drone with a good high ex weapon. Should probably be costed closer to a broadsword in the 8-10 range], and that's been made harder with Danube becoming more reasonably costed (Though that doesn't really effect AI. I did a scroll through the discord, apparently others hate fighting against the fighter swarms... I haven't had trouble, and that's without bringing my own, but I haven't done a dedicated fight against run).

The mining tenders in general were an attempt at making a smaller version of JYD's heavy mining drone so the balance may be off. I'll take a look at them when time allows.

The OP budget is a bit generous for some but that's intentional, the rest feels a mixed of balanced and 'this is how the faction plays'. Most weapons are rapid fire and suck at dealing with armor (Almost everything including the missiles are low individual damage high rate of fire, and the ships themselves trend towards smaller mounts), and tend to be flux hungry. In my hands Carter fleets do well against high tech fleets, ok against midline, and manage against low tech due to the fact that if it's not hegemony they're fighting trash (Tender drones absolutely wreck Derelicts and Pirates are Pirates) and if it hegemony/modded they're in for a bad time or you're a player cheesing the AI.

It is how I balanced the weapons in general so that is sort of on purpose. Whenever I add a new asset to my mods I do my best to offer something that does not already exist in vanilla or another mod. In doing that I really do not have a metric of something that already exists that I can copy/paste from so I get it wrong some (many) times. That is why I appreciate posts like yours to get my head out of the forest so I can see the damn tree I am about to walk into. Consider yourself my Beta tester and quality assurance department all in one.

Carter PD also feels poor (Energy PD is fine, kinetic PD feels too flux inneficient and has the same 'high dps low single shot damage' almost all Carter weapons have)

That is how I balanced them since most PD weapons at spam machines. The fog of war is my spammer but the rest are variations on a theme. I sort of went overboard with them to be honest and I have been thinking of removing a couple as they are all edge case weapons for niche reasons.

and most ships aren't particularly fast (trending towards slow), being reliant on anchor ships, so if you're fighting a Carter fleet that isn't packing a large droneswarm then your own carriers/missiles will trash a Carter's fleet.

That is how I tried to balance them. They have better armor than a high tech ship so that slows them down and gives hi tech a chance to skirmish in and out. However they do not have as much as a low tech ship so that give low-tech an edge of their own.

I've recently picked up a mod that adds fortified Caches (Random faction fleet guarding, size depends on cache size). In particular using a 'Ruthless Sector thinks this is balanced' DP comparison VIC has humbled me, and that mod while definitely Vanilla + previously from memory has more recently trended to Vanilla balance + Weird toys from more recent interaction.

Ruthless Sector is a must have in my gameplay. I always add the spacer start debt option, starfarer mode, redacted in hyperspace, only use ships that I salvage and ironman mode to make it as difficult as possible and make scavenging play a challenge. I do like VIC and am glad it got updated to 0.97a

In that case if you're following the ion idea, there's no need to make a medium size one unless you want to, and given how Carter ships are armed I'd suggest a small shield penetrator...

Oh no I was making a joke of making a literal "head cannon" with the sprite of a head and a stream that shoots out thoughts. CFT already has too many weapons and as I said earlier, I am actually thinking of paring off a couple. So to add a new weapon there would really have to be a specific need.

Actually, if you use PD weapons offensively (Which from memory is totally viable), JYD provides everything except shield penetration. I think PD Prep is from your mods too so it works entirely within the 'Dazs Mods' ecosystem...

Well PD pep from CJHM was originally part of JYD. I got so many complaints from players who wanted to try my mods but did not install them due to all the hull mods they had so I tore them all out of JYD and CFT. That is how CJHM got its name Carter's (CFT) Junk (JYD) Hull Mods, aren't I so clever eh?

Speaking of which I may pick up the ones I'm missing, particularly since Nex has added a 'No Invasions until X' setting. I'll try it after this one for a round where Hivers are less omni-present early.

I actually recommend that on the Hiver forum. It gives the player some breathing room until you can build up funds and a good fleet. But know once you start that first colony, they have had time to build up as well.

Actively used!

Nice! Ore refinery as also originally part of JYD but I made it it's own thing for players who mine but do not like my ship designs.

It is easy to overfill though when a haul brings in 2-5000 Ore + extra Rare/Volotiles when mining Volcanic/Cryovolcanic worlds with what I'd consider a early-midgame fleet.

Mainly the reason I have such large cargo holds in CFT and JYD ships is that exact reason. Salvaging a mining station can be a HUGE influx of ore it makes it meaningless to salvage one w/out a way to reduce the load (ore refinery) or carry it.

Normally I'll quickly mine through 8-4 times stripping the planet for a while then wait around a couple of in game days chewing through it. Fortuneately Carter's ship's Salvage Bays cause processing to be faster, though it doesn't quite line up with Carter's mining speed.
I'm not sure how that could be balanced due to using Salvage to determine processing speed without creating an additional hull mod for the mod or Carter's or just nerfing the mining power of Carter's equipment (Which is something you could reasonably consider). But taking time is a balancing factor I feel, and speed up mod goes up to 24* if I really don't want to wait, not that my computer can really handle more than 4*. (Though I'm about to try someone's work around to manage JRE-23, which will be interesting)

CFT has decent mining capacity but JYD is designed around it. So If you want to seriously mine, use JYD and CFT ships in tandem. That being said, I can certainly revisit the mining strengths of CFT ships/weapons since mining is just a side gig for them.

In that case if it weren't for my thought just below I'd say you did perfectly. They're both tanks, and with investment they both have the 360 degree shields and good PD coverage to make line holders.

Thank you for the kind word.

To be honest I was more thinking 'What's a variety of options so I can reduce mental labour', and prefer symmetrical. I will hold off on saying more because I don't want to push you either way.

Aesthetics wise symmetrical looks nice to me but to be honest it IS a lot easier to design over non-symmetrical.

Hey now! You're managing multiple mods and presumably life around it, showing plenty of smarts and talent.
Or at the very least lots of dedication. I know I get told I'm smart often enough by peers only to not feel it.

Lol well my mods are more quantity than quality. I come up with an idea and do my best to ride with it but then I run into a wall. I would LOVE to add story content but the times I have tried I just could not get it to work. For a recent example, I spent hours trying to convert JYD's Vayra's bounties into using Magiclib's format and even with examples and a provided template I just cannot make it work. No idea why and no clue what is wrong. I compare my work to others and it looks all correct but when I load the game it CRASH with some reasons in the log that makes no sense to me. Pretty much every other mod author has made the switch over but it just seems my brain is wired different. IDK, I am happy with what I have put out, I just wish I could do it better.

I have the time, so I may well try.
If nothing it might go better than me thinking 'It'd be nice if Archaeon Order was compatible with other factions', downloading all the tools, then looking at them and immediately being overwhelmed.

Oh Archaeon Order is the LAST mod I would recommend looking at lol. Start with a simple mod like HMI's Brighton federation, it is one system with a couple ships and weapons. And you can always look over one of my mods and ask questions, clearly I enjoy responding.

OK so that is done so I am going to get a second cup of coffee and dig into w/e you wrote on the JYD forum, see you there!

[5ColouredWalker]

I'll be honest, my only thought with Archeon was buffing ship health numbers as a start.

That said, got a little bit into a run with the new Exploration start before restarting deciding that I ran into too much money to fast and got to a point the start didn't really matter. So, thoughts before I reload and try for one of the random rolls because I really don't like how the fleet composition ended up:


I actually restarted [And got a sparser generation to the north unfortunately], and fuel and supply costs are fine for the start even without Makeshift and Containment skills, this could work as a level 1 start (though starting with 2 capitals is a little incongruous). Also, with 4 planets and 11 markets (Common/Military/Black, 4 worlds, -1 for the jump point station lacking a military base), Survey Equipment is easy to find to effectively start with so the ships not having them isn't a issue.

Ships are more modable than the Knar after comparison in a market, so perhaps the Knar needs to be opened up. One ship is a Battle Carrier, the other is a Carrier, though it's all Tenders offensively.

Far Sight and Sensor Cloak are both hull mods from your mod, are started with, and let you pretend to be super far seeing destroyers, or frigates if Insulated Hull Mods are in the starting line up, which is hilarious.

I'm not going to talk to much about load out because we all have our favourites and there's a difference between 'this is what the faction would choose vs a loner would choose'. The Bolster is all light weapons, 4 tenders, 2 mining pods, and 2 medium PD slots in the rear. It makes a great consolodated logistics ship and looks like it might make a ok fighter carrier. However while fitting a role similar to having 2 Danubes it costs 50 DP to use, rendering it unusable. My initial thought was to compare it to the Atlas/Prometheus in how it feels to use, though looking at stats it probably falls under better. Not much better though. A Legion however is 40 DP, better armed, and you get to choose your fighters. At a Guess it might be worth knocking down to 30 to put it at a midpoint between the Pirate/Pather capitals and a Legion.

The Arethusa has a built in Large Pule Laser, and if you build it as a broadsider you get 2 medium energy and a large weapon on target. If you use it forward facing you get 6 light weapons and a large on target (Warning, leaves no front PD) and medium PD (Which can also be offensive). Overall in combat it's slightly worse than 2 Clippers in feel, but it's OP Budget lets you fill some space with logistics, it has fighters, and it procs having a capital for Escort Ship hullmods, so I think it's perfect, though it's flux stats leave it a bit fragile feeling. It's great at soloing small derelict fleets though.

I Tried some midgame worthy combats using both (A bit early for a early fleet, but two capitals). Neither ship quite has the flux for it and they can also get overwhelmed by wolf packs even or even individual cruisers. The Arestia + Support worked much better.

Since you use Ruthless Sector I will bring this up as balance, while they make a ok if incongruous start, the huge crew value means you start 10K in the red each month right at the begining. Which feels painful, which made me have to quickly get a move on on making money... Which then meant I felt far too rich and large to do exploring, and was then still bleeding money due to the two capitals needing 880 crew between them plus other ships for more cargo and to cover their combat weaknesses.

Also, I've noticed the Dhow (Phase Tanker) turret line up is a little odd, it seems to either have a missing or extra turret in one of the two front lines. I fill them with mining lasers and don't put it in combat anyway so it's not something I particularly care about, but figured I should mention.


For my new start having found the custom options, I'm going to try with just a Astoria, to be psuedo big and tiny at the same time. Let's call it a inheritence.

[Dazs]

I'll be honest, my only thought with Archeon was buffing ship health numbers as a start.

Understood. Archeon is like playing a different game but it is out of date and not really a barometer to learn from to create a mod for the base game.

That said, got a little bit into a run with the new Exploration start before restarting deciding that I ran into too much money to fast and got to a point the start didn't really matter. So, thoughts before I reload and try for one of the random rolls because I really don't like how the fleet composition ended up:

Was it the initial fleet composition that ramped up your credit earning or was it a a good start with lots of salvage and easy to get credits?

I actually restarted [And got a sparser generation to the north unfortunately], and fuel and supply costs are fine for the start even without Makeshift and Containment skills, this could work as a level 1 start (though starting with 2 capitals is a little incongruous). Also, with 4 planets and 11 markets (Common/Military/Black, 4 worlds, -1 for the jump point station lacking a military base), Survey Equipment is easy to find to effectively start with so the ships not having them isn't a issue.

Well the exploration start in most mods are capitals and are meant to be a head start to get to the mid game faster. I would not recommend it if you want to experience the early game.

Ships are more modable than the Knar after comparison in a market, so perhaps the Knar needs to be opened up. One ship is a Battle Carrier, the other is a Carrier, though it's all Tenders offensively.

I locked down the Knarr initially as I saw it as specific type of vessel. That being said I do believe in offering options so your point is taken. I will make a note to address that in the next update.

Far Sight and Sensor Cloak are both hull mods from your mod, are started with, and let you pretend to be super far seeing destroyers, or frigates if Insulated Hull Mods are in the starting line up, which is hilarious.

Well CJHM is another beast entirely. The options that are granted are not really earned if you use the base start of them being unlocked. It was a request from a couple players so I switched it to that mode. The initial option that I released the mod with is still available (instructions on how to enable it on the CJHM forum) to make it so the only way to obtain them is discovery in salvage or purchasing them from a faction market.

I'm not going to talk to much about load out because we all have our favourites and there's a difference between 'this is what the faction would choose vs a loner would choose'. The Bolster is all light weapons, 4 tenders, 2 mining pods, and 2 medium PD slots in the rear. It makes a great consolodated logistics ship and looks like it might make a ok fighter carrier. However while fitting a role similar to having 2 Danubes it costs 50 DP to use, rendering it unusable. My initial thought was to compare it to the Atlas/Prometheus in how it feels to use, though looking at stats it probably falls under better. Not much better though. A Legion however is 40 DP, better armed, and you get to choose your fighters. At a Guess it might be worth knocking down to 30 to put it at a midpoint between the Pirate/Pather capitals and a Legion.

Interesting analysis, I appreciate you "showing your work" it really helps me understand your point. Another note to look into for the next update.

The Arethusa has a built in Large Pule Laser, and if you build it as a broadsider you get 2 medium energy and a large weapon on target. If you use it forward facing you get 6 light weapons and a large on target (Warning, leaves no front PD) and medium PD (Which can also be offensive). Overall in combat it's slightly worse than 2 Clippers in feel, but it's OP Budget lets you fill some space with logistics, it has fighters, and it procs having a capital for Escort Ship hullmods, so I think it's perfect, though it's flux stats leave it a bit fragile feeling. It's great at soloing small derelict fleets though.

I spent some time trying to balance that one with strengths and weaknesses. It is more of a niche ship than a proper front line capital but if outfitted and played correctly is can be a a great damager. Or you could just never deploy it as use it as a mining stat buff and logistics ship. W/e you like the options are there for the player to go create a role for it.

I Tried some midgame worthy combats using both (A bit early for a early fleet, but two capitals). Neither ship quite has the flux for it and they can also get overwhelmed by wolf packs even or even individual cruisers. The Arestia + Support worked much better.

CFT does not have and real tank ships to hold the line while the dps ships eat away at the enemies. I find the Triton can fill that role if you use its deep OP pool and high flux capacity and tank with it using shields (with the proper hull mods) and not as a carrier. I install either 0 or 1 op mining drones in the slots to act as the ships' PD and free up OP for hull mods and more damaging weapons.

Since you use Ruthless Sector I will bring this up as balance, while they make a ok if incongruous start, the huge crew value means you start 10K in the red each month right at the begining. Which feels painful, which made me have to quickly get a move on on making money... Which then meant I felt far too rich and large to do exploring, and was then still bleeding money due to the two capitals needing 880 crew between them plus other ships for more cargo and to cover their combat weaknesses.

Well I cannot really balance the mod by using another mod that some players do not use. I get your point but I made them salvagers with good mining stats and cargo holds to offset the cost of running them. All I do is offer options, up to the player on how to use them.

Also, I've noticed the Dhow (Phase Tanker) turret line up is a little odd, it seems to either have a missing or extra turret in one of the two front lines. I fill them with mining lasers and don't put it in combat anyway so it's not something I particularly care about, but figured I should mention.

Ahh the phase ship quandary again. I'll look it over but balancing that type of ship is not my strong suit, I appreciate the mention.

For my new start having found the custom options, I'm going to try with just a Astoria, to be psuedo big and tiny at the same time. Let's call it a inheritence.

Glad I could help point you in the direction to a custom start. I generally do not use it but in some starts the randomizer lotto does not really fit what I want so I am glad it is there. Personally I never start with a faction commission, I use a custom start or Free start and play as an independent salvager. I find it helps balance things out if I do not have a Galatian stipend and faction commission payouts.

OK you have given me a lot to think about for both CFT and JYD (keep it coming if you have more) and our correspondence is the initial frame work for a changelog to-do list. I just finished up the CJHM update I had planned and I have multiple requests to add Lunalib to Hiver so players can choose their difficulty levels. I have time dedicated to that this weekend and hopefully this will not be yet another failed experiment. That being said, I will start on updates for CFT and JYD afterward so if you or anyone else has an opinion, request or TLDR Rant (my favorite) get it to me by Monday (my personal cut off if I cannot get Lunalib to work for me) and I'll consider it for the next update(s).

[5ColouredWalker]

That said, got a little bit into a run with the new Exploration start before restarting deciding that I ran into too much money to fast and got to a point the start didn't really matter. So, thoughts before I reload and try for one of the random rolls because I really don't like how the fleet composition ended up:

Was it the initial fleet composition that ramped up your credit earning or was it a a good start with lots of salvage and easy to get credits?

Honestly, early salvage plus the initial large storage space which comboed into a pair of 'concerned traders' with large valuable shipments (Both supplies I think). I breached 1 million before leaving the core.

Far Sight and Sensor Cloak are both hull mods from your mod, are started with, and let you pretend to be super far seeing destroyers, or frigates if Insulated Hull Mods are in the starting line up, which is hilarious.

Well CJHM is another beast entirely. The options that are granted are not really earned if you use the base start of them being unlocked. It was a request from a couple players so I switched it to that mode. The initial option that I released the mod with is still available (instructions on how to enable it on the CJHM forum) to make it so the only way to obtain them is discovery in salvage or purchasing them from a faction market.

Good to know, I'll consider enabling that on my end.

The Arethusa has a built in Large Pule Laser, and if you build it as a broadsider you get 2 medium energy and a large weapon on target. If you use it forward facing you get 6 light weapons and a large on target (Warning, leaves no front PD) and medium PD (Which can also be offensive). Overall in combat it's slightly worse than 2 Clippers in feel, but it's OP Budget lets you fill some space with logistics, it has fighters, and it procs having a capital for Escort Ship hullmods, so I think it's perfect, though it's flux stats leave it a bit fragile feeling. It's great at soloing small derelict fleets though.

I spent some time trying to balance that one with strengths and weaknesses. It is more of a niche ship than a proper front line capital but if outfitted and played correctly is can be a a great damager. Or you could just never deploy it as use it as a mining stat buff and logistics ship. W/e you like the options are there for the player to go create a role for it.

In my current run that's going well, I'm effectively running a Arethusa, 2 Cutties, and a tail of Vergulds. The combo can take most small early fights with some difficulty, and due to starting weapons I stumbled into a build with the Arethusa that feels really good, 2 small mining blasters and the large, 2 medium Electromags and 2 small, 2 medium PD beams, and the rest standard PD.
Running all weapons + Shield it doesn't have the flux for, but it can reasonably run Shields + EMs or Mining blasters, or drop shields to run both. Makes for a fun balancing act which honestly has me feeling like the Arethusa is either perfect as is, or in a good fun place.

In fact I'm at a place where the start really doesn't matter any more, and I think my final report will be 'I love the Arethusa, it works as a 'super' ship start and a multiple consolidated ships for fun early game exploration'. I've also tried built in Survey Hullmods only to regret it later, but the Arethusa will make it into future fleets effectively a psuedo-battlecarrier that Clipper's ping off.

Also I've gotten into a couple of fights that confirm Carters struggles with Low Tech, Missiles and Fighter Spam. A couple of Cache's vs JYD and boy am I glad they didn't have any long range medium mounts, had to play those very carefully focusing on outranging with electromags before diving in to kill overextending ships.

I Tried some midgame worthy combats using both (A bit early for a early fleet, but two capitals). Neither ship quite has the flux for it and they can also get overwhelmed by wolf packs even or even individual cruisers. The Arestia + Support worked much better.

CFT does not have and real tank ships to hold the line while the dps ships eat away at the enemies. I find the Triton can fill that role if you use its deep OP pool and high flux capacity and tank with it using shields (with the proper hull mods) and not as a carrier. I install either 0 or 1 op mining drones in the slots to act as the ships' PD and free up OP for hull mods and more damaging weapons.

I'd argue the Odam very much fills that role (It kinda has to, doesn't have the speed or armament to do anything else, fortuneately it does it well, even without heavy hull mod use). But yes, the Fortress Shield capital isn't as tanky as it feels like it should be if we're just talking about capitals. Other ships can be finangled into the roll with the right modifications though.

OK you have given me a lot to think about for both CFT and JYD (keep it coming if you have more) and our correspondence is the initial frame work for a changelog to-do list. I just finished up the CJHM update I had planned and I have multiple requests to add Lunalib to Hiver so players can choose their difficulty levels. I have time dedicated to that this weekend and hopefully this will not be yet another failed experiment. That being said, I will start on updates for CFT and JYD afterward so if you or anyone else has an opinion, request or TLDR Rant (my favorite) get it to me by Monday (my personal cut off if I cannot get Lunalib to work for me) and I'll consider it for the next update(s).

And this is part of the impetious to send this as I was sitting on it to respond later, only to realise the start had stopped being relevent as I stockpile stuff to prepare for being a larger fleet/begining colonisation.

[Dazs]

Honestly, early salvage plus the initial large storage space which comboed into a pair of 'concerned traders' with large valuable shipments (Both supplies I think). I breached 1 million before leaving the core.

OK so more of a playstyle effect then. The are a trading(smuggling) and exploration based faction so that tracks using two of their capital explorers.

Good to know, I'll consider enabling that on my end.

It is how I personally play with CJHM. It adds a layer of discovery and frankly joy when I finally find my personal holy grail, cargo pods And frankly one of the reasons I do not require a dock to install it is that I want to put it on ASAP.

In my current run that's going well, I'm effectively running a Arethusa, 2 Cutties, and a tail of Vergulds. The combo can take most small early fights with some difficulty, and due to starting weapons I stumbled into a build with the Arethusa that feels really good, 2 small mining blasters and the large, 2 medium Electromags and 2 small, 2 medium PD beams, and the rest standard PD.
Running all weapons + Shield it doesn't have the flux for, but it can reasonably run Shields + EMs or Mining blasters, or drop shields to run both. Makes for a fun balancing act which honestly has me feeling like the Arethusa is either perfect as is, or in a good fun place.

Excellent, thank you for the follow up. I do playtest new ships before I release them but it is so helpful to get a field report from another player.

In fact I'm at a place where the start really doesn't matter any more, and I think my final report will be 'I love the Arethusa, it works as a 'super' ship start and a multiple consolidated ships for fun early game exploration'. I've also tried built in Survey Hullmods only to regret it later, but the Arethusa will make it into future fleets effectively a psuedo-battlecarrier that Clipper's ping off.

Sounds like a good role for it. I try to give my ships a long lasting reason to keep them in your fleet and that would be a great use for it.

Also I've gotten into a couple of fights that confirm Carters struggles with Low Tech, Missiles and Fighter Spam. A couple of Cache's vs JYD and boy am I glad they didn't have any long range medium mounts, had to play those very carefully focusing on outranging with electromags before diving in to kill overextending ships.

Well even though I made both mods, I really tried to give the community something different to play with. JYD is my low tech mod, CFT mid tech and TTSC high tech. JYD being my first mod, it does have some midline ships and beam weapons and I had considered removing them and putting them in CFT but that would make two mods not save game compatible and it would force a player that likes CFT but not JYD to have JYD assets and vice versa. OH and the work involved, that is also a factor

I'd argue the Odam very much fills that role (It kinda has to, doesn't have the speed or armament to do anything else, fortuneately it does it well, even without heavy hull mod use). But yes, the Fortress Shield capital isn't as tanky as it feels like it should be if we're just talking about capitals. Other ships can be finangled into the roll with the right modifications though.

I did try and give them all specific roles though some of the larger ones are just scaled up analogs of the smaller ones. I may revisit the Bourbon in the next update by giving it more defense but I think it serves a role as is and would not want to tip the scales too much. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated.

And this is part of the impetious to send this as I was sitting on it to respond later, only to realise the start had stopped being relevent as I stockpile stuff to prepare for being a larger fleet/begining colonisation.

IDK first thoughts, most honest thoughts I think. I do apprecaite the follow ups as I prefer clarity to ensure I get it correct when I do make changes. Speaking of, CFT is now on that list as I have publicly given up on the Hiver/Lunalib integration. I have requests for JYD and CJHM as well but I feel that all your input has given me reason to put CFT to the top of the list. I may start on that later today but tbh after melting my brain yesterday on the Hiver thing, I need to time to decompress and idk maybe actually play the game

As always, I appreciate the feedback and welcome any more. It is a treat to get a message to read while I have my morning coffee, it helps get my thoughts in order and primes the day.
Stay tuned, a CFT update is incoming soon (tm)

[5ColouredWalker]

Honestly, early salvage plus the initial large storage space which comboed into a pair of 'concerned traders' with large valuable shipments (Both supplies I think). I breached 1 million before leaving the core.

OK so more of a playstyle effect then. The are a trading(smuggling) and exploration based faction so that tracks using two of their capital explorers.

Definately. Also held off on settling/expanding the fleet too much until I explored most places and ignored money when it got high enough. It's not actually optimising, but gotta remember to not optimise the fun out for myself by trading in the core until I have more money than god and then realising I have nothing to do with said money.

I'd argue the Odam very much fills that role (It kinda has to, doesn't have the speed or armament to do anything else, fortuneately it does it well, even without heavy hull mod use). But yes, the Fortress Shield capital isn't as tanky as it feels like it should be if we're just talking about capitals. Other ships can be finangled into the roll with the right modifications though.

I did try and give them all specific roles though some of the larger ones are just scaled up analogs of the smaller ones. I may revisit the Bourbon in the next update by giving it more defense but I think it serves a role as is and would not want to tip the scales too much. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated.

You asked for ship opinions. Now I'm going to do so. By Size Category. Not just the Bourbon because I've had thoughts, though I will say starting on the Bourbon became a heavily edited rant and gave me the energy to go through them all.

Capitals!

The Arethusa - You have them. Effectively a Cruiser combat wise, with a mixed cruiser logistics mixed in, and triggers abilities like a capital. A good 'light' capital that's I feel is balanced well. I wish the side slots allowed coverage of the front/rear (Say, 200 Degrees at a guess), but they work well enough. The ship could arguably be 30 DP and would definitely need to be if you did so. Also I've been reminded how good Ops centre is these past few runs.
(Speaking of which, final build, 1 Large Mining Pulse (Built in), 4 Electromag Guns (Kinetic Pressure), the PD Beams from JYD in everything else with PD Prep hullmod. If overfluxing turn off everything but PD, and the PD still consists of dangerous long range weaponry that screws with facing and applies EMP so you can't turn your shields off)

The Freebooter - Surprisingly fast capital with a ops center built in. That's all it has going for it though, feels like a 'light' capital, but that can be very useful as the Arestia shows, and the lower weapon load gives more ordanence points for mods allowing it to be whatever you'd like, within the confines of Large Kinetics. That said it's 50 ordinance points to deploy, and it's stats are remarkable close to a Prometheus Mark 2 at 30 Deployment points compared to 50. Much better shields and a better ordinance budget is nice though, not 10 more than a line capital nice except as a player flag ship, which isn't fair because then it's player controlled. The Appolo Wings feel bad though, as they contribute to the problem of Carter's not working well with the Fighter Fleet Bonus skills.
I feel deployment points Should trend back towards 40. Adding ship DP together isn't a perfect measure but I feel 40ish is Ok as I feel Arestia plus a Clipper/Cutter would be a tough fight, while 35 being a Arestia plus Danube or the frigate I like sounds too much like the Frigate being popped and the Arestia being ground down... Maybe not the Danube though. Maybe 45 to represent the Operations Centre and how helpful that can be.

Bourbon - Ok, this turned into a rant, sorry. I rewrote it a couple of times trying to be better, but I had to stop somewhere.
The closest comparison to the Bourbon is the Bastard child of the Onslaught and Paragon. That said, the only thing it inherits from the Pagon is energy large mounts and Fortress shields.
Flux/Armor Wise, it's the Onslaught, but instead of 5 Large mounts and having to juggle flux and taking hits on your armor, you get 2 Large Energy Mounts, and the flux pool is plenty enough that you're unlikely to want to switch to Fortress Shields as a way of safely venting.
Now, you are much faster at 65 base speed. But in a fight with a Onslaught the Burn Drive allows it to control the distance. And like the onslaught your shield is a front 200 degree Shield leaving you vulnerable to flanking and your shield cannot be closed unlike the Moniter.
And then, you keep the Deployment point of 50 from the crossbreed. The Onslaught is 40 and arguably better.
I'm also not a fan of missile mounts, but that's a me thing, but it having 4 medium missiles supporting 2 Large Energy helps contribute to the 'having enough flux to not need the Fortress Shields' problem, since unless you grab modded missiles from say VIC, those slots wont contribute to generating flux. The rest are mixed PD slots which from memory and a glance at the sprite are truly dedicated PD unlike the Arestia where you can mix them into weapons.

I previously didn't look closely enough over the surface problems to see how much this one needs a touch up. But there you go. My Snap judgements would be to drop DP to 40 and swap the 4 missile mounts to Synergy/Hybrid but that's probably my missile hate popping up, but it would help with allowing it to overflux thus use fortress shields. That said, I wouldn't rely on my snap judgements.
Other possible changes to improve include giving it Omni-shields of same coverage (Or even drop to 180 to leave it vulnerable to flanking unless you switch to Forward Shields, in which case Paragon shields are still better for full coverage), Giving it a .6 (Or, lower than .9) Shield Conversion Rate (The Executor as a mid-line somehow manages it, and looking at it actually has fairly similar stats.) There's also the posibility of dropping the Deployment Points.

If I were to wish upon a star I'd say leave it at 50 DP, give it 180 Omnishields, .6 Conversion, and Synergy/Hybrid medium mounts. But you're not making the mod for me 

Exetor - Superfreightor. I'm sure I'll use it late game and have thoughts. Otherwise my only one is 'why is this in the combat section'? Like Freebooter, has wings it doesn't need clogging up skills. Worse, it's a logistics mod to get rid of them, and those are capped in number.
Triton - Looks Good. However due to Danubes and using a Potato I haven't been playing much with other fighters. I may try later as my current fleet has been low on fighters, but I'm busy doing colony stuff.
Galleon - Has the problem of me not liking missiles, and that if I use modded missiles how much is your mod vs missile mod? Not sure how to judge it, beyond 'I'm sure it won't last 800 seconds in combat unless you're using reloading missiles', since it lacks any sort of ammo resupply. Also hiding in the carrier section for some reason which is weird since it's wings are support wings like the Freebooter, and likewise can be done withou.
Bolster - Mixed Logistics ship! Technically a carrier. Needs it's DP tanked as previously discussed. I think I said something like 30?
Retourschip - Supertanker! Same comment regarding wings as the Exeter.

[close]

Cruisers

Schooner - Cruiser Sized Mule! Does not want to be in combat but technically can be. Deserves to exist. Kinda weird it doesn't have a medium missile slot to take advantage of medium Salamanders but eh.

Odam - The Premier Tank, also serves as a explorer. Slow in a fight, actually uses it's wings usefully! (PD freeing up weapon slots, and beind slow the AI knows how to donate it's PD). Lightly armed, but that gives it more room for tanking. The Flares coming out the rear means it's ship system is only really useful if it's missiled from the rear while it's shields are down, which occasionally happens in AI hands but less often than being attacked from the front/sides. Perhaps side exiting flares?

Kerberos - I haven't used it in a while so my previous thoughts stand, but I'll repeat 'Random Mizzen ruins fighter fleet skill'. I suppose it can use them the same as the Odam being the same speed, but from memory I only found it useable as a platform for Safety Overrides because it can't handle the flux of 12 Medium Weapons, which is more firepower than the Capitals have. Thinking on it this one could actually use Fortress Shields as a way to manage flux.

Coventry: Feels like it should be a line cruiser. Slow enough to be a light capitals with a cruiser armament, except it has 7 small missile slots! Who does it think it's fooling with Accelerated ammo feeder, it needs the accelerated missile reload ship system and then to be loaded down with missiles! And they're all small which means it can benefit from the base game mod that gives them all a limited reload pool! But ignoring mods it's hillarious watching the AI panic as 7 Salamanders launch to say 'I know I have speed 55, but you don't get to run'. That said being so slow compared to everything kinda gives it the feel it should be supporting capital ships rather than being something you can use before then.

Bombadier: I haven't played with it much. Missile Autoforge from memory is limited use, but it looks like a good missile ship to act as a Griffon Alternative. Also, Random Appollo wing ruins fighter skills.

Vasa: Eagle and Doom had a baby. And I love it! Please don't touch it!

Ironclad: Needs other mods to be usable. I've tried playing around with it, it can die in a fire.

Dhow: For all your phase smuggling needs! Should be either 10 or 12 hybrid slots though, the second row of weapons currently has a issue where a slot is either missing or added extra and the arcs are weird. [Also, I think it's HMI introduces a mod where hybrid (mining) lasers do hard flux, so I suddenly want to try that though I know that'll go poorly and not be your fault. But those lasers are long range and this has so many slots.]

Griffon: Surprisingly fast battlecarrier. You get what you're given carrier wise. Interesting, not for me, the Deployment points look a bit high for what it can do. I feel like I said that before though. Given the Appolo's status as a 'I poke you' drone I feel like 1 should be changed to Brig or Cutter. Honestly I could go them all being Brigs (Fast Harassment needing to be done in bursts) or Cutters (Surprisingly tough drones to help the Griffon stay in the fight when harassing. Also more PD.)

Foudre: Heron upgrade, trading the medium slot for more speed, 1 more fighter slot, and 15 BP. Being closer to the Heron it's points are tighter on mods unless you leave a bay open. Should probably cost more DP than a Heron than the same (A Easy test to do would be 4 Heron vs 3 Foudre as that's the same fighter bays. If they regularly draw, then 80 points of Heron should be roughly equal to 3 Foudre. What Foudre lack in the ability to spread out they gain in speed and concentration of firepower. This suggests 26 DP.)

Dromon: Interseting. Feels like a cross between a Heron and Mora. Feels like it should be a Battlecarrier near the top of the Cruiser line up/bottom of the Capital line up. 2 Fighter slots are locked to Appollo unfortunately for long range 'I poke you I poke you' that feels really eh.

Cog: Surprisingly fast PD platform that Dazs already said exits 'Because I made it and left it there in case anyone wants it'. With the base game ship mod for Detroyers to work better near cruisers/capitals might be worth retesting as it's only 8 DP, but I haven't recently. Given it's speed it really doesn't need the mizzen wing clogging up the fighter count.

Chester: Acceptable battlecarrier.

Knar and Collier:
Addressing together as they form a midpoint/divergence of the Bawley/Danube/(Knar/Collier)/(Arethusa/Bolster) evolution line.
First, these need there weapon restrictions loosened like the rest.
Second , the Knar having Civilian Grade hull is extrememely weird how the other ships in the line up don't have it.
Third, every ship except the Arethusa having EMP burst wave makes the Arethusa not having it look odd. I originally redacted a comment about swapping the Bolster and Arethusa system but perhaps the Arethusa should just have EMP wave. It would help with flux management as weapons aren't generating flux while the EMP wave is active. And the Arethusa has really good all around weapon coverage and omni shields so doesn't really need manuevering jets except as a speed boost.
It's also the Collier and Danube have Surveying Gear. The Bolster doesn't but presumably the rest of the fleet is doing that. The Knar is a expedition leader but has long range sensors which like the Arethusa makes using Surveying Equipment odd. The Collier also stands out in having unusually few fighters (Just two wings) compared to the rest of the evolutionary line.
Also while interseting, it might be worth considering consolidating the Knar/Collier into one ship, and the Arethusa/Bolster into one ship.

And no, this evolution line doesn't get the comment on 'random fighters'. This evolution line either uses them in combat and massed tenders are fun, and if you're massing them so hard the skill doesn't work at least they're good drones. On the other, if used as logistics vessels it's annoying using converted cargo holds taking up a slot, but they can be unconverted quickly if your combat section gets destroyed and you don't savescum out of it.

Carrack: Oddly overarmed freighter, tempting you to use it wrongly. Also random mizzen wings causing the fighter skill problem.

Astera: Oddly overarmed tanker, tempting you to use it wrongly... I keep wanting to make it work but I know it's just too fragile.

[close]

destroyers

Raven: Consider a sidegrade to the Manticore, and you're only source of large weapons that isn't a capital! Interesting and can be fun, but fallen out of favour in my fleets since EM Guns give me plenty of long range firepower already.

Lenox: Utility ship I never use. Could work to assist a fighting/bounty hunting start but I'm not feeling it. Perhaps if the fighter slots were unlocked with OP added to make use of slots? No actual problems from memory.

Cutty: I love it! Sure, it's all small weapons but even in a Freetraders/+Unmodded environment it works, being surprisingly tanky for it's speed, and fast enough to hunt down wolves and medusae. 'Heavy' should not be in it's name, it's just a destroyer. Looking at other ships I considered saying it should be light,but no, just destroyer is good.

Clipper: Too Fast. The Clipper has a speed of 100, this is much bigger and has a speed of 110. Also comparing to Vanilla this is a Hammerhead but different subsystems, a third medium, and better armor/flux stats, which is probably why this has been feeling so good. It does cost 4 more to deploy. I'd suggest dropping it's speed to 80-90ish, that way it's still good, but not fast, feels a little more 'heavy'.

Brigantine: Mule, trading half shield arc for better everything else. I remember that reduced shield arc sucking in battle, but I'm not sure the deployment points/maintenance should be the same. Maybe 8?

Barque: A ship that exists. In line fighting the Cutty/A Medusa trounces it. Looking at base ships and recalling my experience, this is probably the closest to a Shrike which feels right. Shrike is 8DP, the Barque is 11. The Barque has some utility and better stats except shield disipation, but only has 1 medium slot instead. Though it's Light slots are better situated...
All in all I'd suggest dropping to a 9 Deployment point wise.

Shallop: Another 'ship that exists'. Phase ships are awkward in that their either Good, OK or Trash. I'm sure someone can do amazing things with the Shallop and it looks like a interesting sidegrade to the Harbinger, but it's not for me.

Danube: Great. 10/10 ship. Either mod it into a Logistics alternate or use it a a combat/logistics combo.

Berkentine: Great Bomber Carrier. However given they layout of it's small slots it really doesn't need a Mizzen Wing clogging up the fighter count.

Verguld: It has too much OP for a reason, and that's fine. What's not fine is that I've noticed it gets +2 Burn Speed from Bulk Transport. I've not checked the other civilian ships that lack the civilian hull mod, but this and the other ships need a review for that bug. Either they need to be Civilian with Insulated Engines based on Lore so it makes sense, or they need to be tagged as military/have built in militirized so you don't get extra speed you shouldn't have.

Jacht: A... Noticeably Better Valkyrie.... It should probably cost more ordinance points just like the Verguld costs more due to being a boosted Buffalo/Tarsus.

[close]

frigates

Vestale: A boosted Kite with fighter PD! For Carter specific 0 to hero runs I presume. I can't particularly comment on it beyond 'it feels wrong that it exists'.
Scow: Wayfarer Sidegrade and early access to medium weapons. I keep trying and failing to use it as a combat vessel early because the medium mounts call to me. It keeps dying as a Wayfarer because of it. 10/10.
Jackdaw: Recently discussed. The only actual combat Frigate, and a pretty good one. When I said '6-7' I really meant 'I feel 6', but having taken a look at one holding of a Shrike, it think it earns it's 7.
Fusta: A Boosted Mudskipper which costs more appropriately. Which is incorrectly filed as a warship despite being one of the two ships that actually has civilian armor and insulated engines (which more ships feel like they should have).
Pinnacle: I've said before this feels more like a fighter in a Frigate slot. Nothing has changed. Name still feels funny. Nothing needs to change. This is one of those Phase Ships that are good but I actually use them, if just for point capture and harassment expecting to need to recover them.
Naruebet: A better Condor in a Frigate Slot. This one I feel is there for the options, and at least costs 10 like a Condor. Could probably cost more.
Bawley: Currently happy with it but I normally skip to the destroyer part of the game so not super familiar with it, beyond that it's a source of Tenders.
Sloop: Continues to be a better Dram that exists for useful reasons.
Derek: A Ox cross Fusta only costing 6.5? I presume this is you being nice to late game fleets, but I haven't played around much there. Also, random fighters that don't need to be there.

You will notice I comment on the built in fighters a few times. If you're amassing a Tender swarm than I think Carter's is fine. If not then the Fighters being built in instead of options means there's no point picking up the skill to boost fighters in the fleet because it'll be drowned under everything else.
I haven't done a dedicated JYD playthrough, but I imagine if you want to speck into fighters, I imagine that the fact their all drones makes up for that. Carter's doesn't have that luxury.

Now, my morning just disappeared and I'm supposed to do things today, so I'm going to stop here.

Edit: The edits is because I couldn't stop because I noticed typos. Now I'm getting up and stopping, any other typos can remain.

[close]

[Dazs]

5ColouredWalker, WOW, JUST WOW.
I have read your comments in full but instead of my usual line by line reply, I will reply in broad strokes. First off, I am glad I held off working on CFT and instead took a break yesterday because, damn!, I could not have asked for a better laid out breakdown for feedback. I generally go through multiple posts from different players and copy/paste comments into a working changelog. No need this time and I am glad that I did not spend the time doing it now

OK I hear you on the fighter issue, you make an excellent point about the fighter skill being clogged up with needless drones that make it useless to take. I honestly had not considered that and now I feel silly that I hadn't. I thank you for inserting JYD comments as well since built-in drones are a core concept to that mod and it does feel samey putting them into CFT. I really need to think about how I am going to address that and keep the ships in balance but I will be either removing those locked wing slots or unlocking them.

Speaking of locked slots, I'll be honest here, I had concepts for those ships that are locked down and I guess I was forcing players to play them the way I envisioned. I have stated multiple times that I am all about offering options to players and here I am being a tyrant regarding this. It's tough love but I appreciate you constantly pointing it out and I not only see you, I hear you.

So, you have given me a TON to think about and that is a good thing. I have some free time tomorrow so I will be spending it going into the details of your posts and making a working list of changes to make. I should have time later in the week to start on making those changes and, fingers crossed, a released update by the weekend. A couple more requests came in for my other mods so I feel the need to expedite to get caught up so it may be sooner. Either way, CFT is next in the lineup even though it is the largest planned update. OK that all being said, allow me to thank you yet again for the work you do for my mods. I'd put you on the payroll but um I've spent all the donations I've made over the years on a pot of coffee.

[5ColouredWalker]

And here you have me feeling bad for being too broke to donate    And yes, you totally could have asked for a better layout, I can see where I've gotten tired. But thanks


Going to bed after having stayed up way to late retesting some cruiser ships to see if memory/napkin math matched out. (Basically the ones I was unsure of because I hadn't used as much).



Chester: Manages to feel too tight and decently balanced at the same time. Forgoing missiles I managed to put in decent fighters, weapons, Integrated targeting unit, and only be 1 off maxing capaciters/vents, however 2 EMags + Pulse Mining Blaster generate 745 Flux. A Chester Maxes at 590 Discipation before mods, and has fighters and shields to keep up. A Clipper has 620. Chester's shields are 50 flux cheaper, but a Chester is also paying 10 more ordinance points for that disapation, has worse shields (Smaller arc and worse conversion percentage, but they are omni shields) and (Currently) isn't fast enough to get out of trouble as easily as it gets into it. I kinda want to test a Foudre + Clipper Fight vs 2 Chesters to see if Chesters are really worth it, but that might just be Clipper's speed being overtuned per my previous suggestion.
Dromon: With it's speed, works more as a slowly advancing battlecarrier or a bomb carrier that punishes those that approach. With the two built in wings it's ordinance budget feels far too generous (Can easily fully kit it out as if I was using S-mods without them). That said building it as a slowly advancing carrier with more Appollos, Xyphos or Longbow's feels a bit bad given it's ship system rewarding bombers.
Kerberos: As I remember, leaving all the small slots empty and 'sacrificing' two medium slots for PD, using heavy machine guns and medium pulse blasters, this thing easily goes over it's flux budget even with safety overrides. It's very much overarmed.
Griffon: Testing it in AI hands shows that the AI doesn't know what to do with it (with a aggressive officer). Instead of working around the side and bullying frigates/destroyers it tries to back off and hide behind the front line relying on it's fighter swarms. Perhaps a ship based mod to give it's fighter's no engagement range so it tries to get stuck in? OP budget also feels tight but manageable. Feels like a side option to the Vasa given it's same deployment points, where you trade the potential reward of mines/phase for the safety of having a shield.
Coventry: Works better than I expected with a backup of Foudre or Dromon. While I suggested it was too slow I'd only speed it up to 60/65 to bring it into line with the Dromon and Bourbon. As an alternative to the suggestion to change the system to Fast Missile Racks, perhaps it could instead go 4 Physical Slots instead of 2 Kinetic/Energy. Or perhaps those slots can switch to Hybrid so there's still the option of using energy weapons?


As for how I reviewed them, I took them into a colony crises. Not quite running them into multiple remnant ordos as a meat grinder, but grinding through a couple of League Blockade Amada and a Hegemony Inspection Fleet back to back should work since Carter's does better against high tech (Tri-tach) and Pirates/Luddites are themselves. A Church fleet could be a problem with the Invictus, but the system I'm colonising is entirely wrong for that.

[Dazs]

And here you have me feeling bad for being too broke to donate    And yes, you totally could have asked for a better layout, I can see where I've gotten tired. But thanks

Lol no need for you to donate $, I find your analysis far more valuable.

Going to bed after having stayed up way to late retesting some cruiser ships to see if memory/napkin math matched out. (Basically the ones I was unsure of because I hadn't used as much).

Nighty Night, sleepy tight. I just got some more good feedback on the HIVER thread so I'll be putting aside some additional time today on CFT to try and get ahead of my estimated update time.

Chester: Manages to feel too tight and decently balanced at the same time. Forgoing missiles I managed to put in decent fighters, weapons, Integrated targeting unit, and only be 1 off maxing capaciters/vents, however 2 EMags + Pulse Mining Blaster generate 745 Flux. A Chester Maxes at 590 Discipation before mods, and has fighters and shields to keep up. A Clipper has 620. Chester's shields are 50 flux cheaper, but a Chester is also paying 10 more ordinance points for that disapation, has worse shields (Smaller arc and worse conversion percentage, but they are omni shields) and (Currently) isn't fast enough to get out of trouble as easily as it gets into it. I kinda want to test a Foudre + Clipper Fight vs 2 Chesters to see if Chesters are really worth it, but that might just be Clipper's speed being overtuned per my previous suggestion.

Dromon: With it's speed, works more as a slowly advancing battlecarrier or a bomb carrier that punishes those that approach. With the two built in wings it's ordinance budget feels far too generous (Can easily fully kit it out as if I was using S-mods without them). That said building it as a slowly advancing carrier with more Appollos, Xyphos or Longbow's feels a bit bad given it's ship system rewarding bombers.
Kerberos: As I remember, leaving all the small slots empty and 'sacrificing' two medium slots for PD, using heavy machine guns and medium pulse blasters, this thing easily goes over it's flux budget even with safety overrides. It's very much overarmed.
Griffon: Testing it in AI hands shows that the AI doesn't know what to do with it (with a aggressive officer). Instead of working around the side and bullying frigates/destroyers it tries to back off and hide behind the front line relying on it's fighter swarms. Perhaps a ship based mod to give it's fighter's no engagement range so it tries to get stuck in? OP budget also feels tight but manageable. Feels like a side option to the Vasa given it's same deployment points, where you trade the potential reward of mines/phase for the safety of having a shield.
Coventry: Works better than I expected with a backup of Foudre or Dromon. While I suggested it was too slow I'd only speed it up to 60/65 to bring it into line with the Dromon and Bourbon. As an alternative to the suggestion to change the system to Fast Missile Racks, perhaps it could instead go 4 Physical Slots instead of 2 Kinetic/Energy. Or perhaps those slots can switch to Hybrid so there's still the option of using energy weapons?

Thank you for the further updates. I'll add these notes to my current working changelog.

As for how I reviewed them, I took them into a colony crises. Not quite running them into multiple remnant ordos as a meat grinder, but grinding through a couple of League Blockade Amada and a Hegemony Inspection Fleet back to back should work since Carter's does better against high tech (Tri-tach) and Pirates/Luddites are themselves. A Church fleet could be a problem with the Invictus, but the system I'm colonising is entirely wrong for that.

Well no faction is totally balanced and have their strengths and weaknesses. I am going over your notes and have already started on some changes based on your observations and balanced with my personal opinions on how they relate to that ship's lore. With that in mind, the update won't be a 1:1 changelog based on your reports but it will be heavily influenced by them.

As always, your messages are a welcome notification in my email.

[Dazs]

v1.9 - released today - Save game compatible but you will need to rearm most of the ships below if you have them in your current fleet

Note: I am putting the changelog under spoiler tags in order to save your eyes because the list is TLDR large, you have been warned

Spoiler

   -Increased the range of the Shredder and Saker kinetic weapons from 650 to 700 to better pair with CFT's 700 range HE weapons
   -Adjusted the CFT crest for the floral image to be left justified (was center) like the flag - I remember seeing a discord comment about how that really triggered their OCD and since then I could not unsee it
      -The reason CFT is jumping to 1.9 is the following list of ship adjustments based on feedback given from various players but specifically by 5ColouredWalker:
   -Assigned the title "Quality Assurance Specialist" to 5ColouredWalker on the forum OP for all the help he has given      
   -Freebooter: Lowered the DP and supplies/mo from 50 to 45, removed the built in wings and added tender wings to the variant
   -Bourbon: Replaced all the ballistic and energy mounts with hybrid, changed the shield from front to omni, efficiency from .9 to .6 and reduced the shield arc from 200 to 180 - My gift to 5ColouredWalker
   -Exeter: Added a missing civilian-grade hull tag,changed the designation to a Civilian ship, removed the built in wings and added mining drones to the variant
   -Galleon: Removed the two built in wings and added 2 brig wings to the variant
   -Bolster: Lowered the DP and supplies/mo from 50 to 40, unlocked all the wings, reduced the wing count from 6 to 4 and increased the OP from 250 to 265
   -Retourschip: Added a missing civilian-grade hull tag, removed the built in wings and added borer drones to the variant
   -Odam: Removed the built in wings and added them to the open slots on the variant
   -Kerebos: Removed the built in wings, changed the small turrets to all be 360 degrees to better use them as PD mounts and added 5 OP to compensate
   -Conventry- Changed the variant loadout by replacing the volley rockets with a mix of hellfire and point defense missiles
   -Bombadier: Removed the built in wings, added 5 OP, replaced the Volley rockets with Inferno Mirv on the variant, and put mining drones in the open slots
   -Ironclad: Added advanced turret gyros to the variant to fill in the unused OP
   -Dhow: Widened the front side facing mounts from 190 to 225 degrees to better engage targets and added insulated engine assembly to the variant by replacing culverns with mining lasers
   -Griffon: Added built-in Advanced turret gyros and replaced the wings to 2 Brigs and 2 Cutters
   -Foudre: Raised the deployment/supplies per month to 25 and the Fleet points to 18 to better reflect it's power
   -Dromon: Unlocked the built in wings, changed the mounts to a mix of hybrid, composite and synergy and added 2 Borer drones to the open slots on the variant
   -Cog: Unlocked the two built in wings and added 2 Mining drones to the open slots on the variant and filled in the extra op with Advanced Turret Gyros
   -Knarr: Unlocked the large and two medium turrets and set them to energy
   -Collier: Added a missing civilian-grade hull tag, unlocked all the weapon mounts and wings, set them to hybrid, increased the OP to 115 and equipped the variant with a mix of mining lasers, mining drones and electro-magnetic railguns
   -Carrack: Unlocked the wing slots and fitted the variant with mining drones
   -Astera: Converted into a Combat Tanker by replacing the civilian tag with a built in targeting unit, increasing FP to 10, armor to 560, MF to 2800, FD to 280, DP/supply to 10 and refitted the variant with combat weapons
   -Lennox: Unlocked the built-in wings, added 1d0 OP and added two brig wings to the variant
   -Clipper: Raised the armor by 50, lowered the max speed from 110 to 90, added 10 mass, and increased min crew by 10
   -Brigantine: Increased the shield arc to 100 since it so wide of a ship
   -Barque: Lowered the DP/supply per month by 1
   -Barkentine: Unlocked the third wing slot, raised the op by 5 and added a brig to the open slot on the variant
   -Vergulde: Added a missing civilian-grade hull tag, added built in insulated engines, lowered the OP by 10 and removed reinforced bulkheads on the variant
   -Jacht: Added a missing civilian-grade hull tag and raised the DP/supply per month by 2
   -Vestale: Unlocked the built in wings and added 2 Mizzen to the now open slots on the variant
   -Scow: Changed the PD turret on the variant to a mining laser and used the free op to add blast doors for better survivability
   -Jackdaw: I noticed there were 4 unused OP on the variant so I added the Flux Coil Adjunct hull mod
   -Fusta: Added the missing civilian-grade hull tag that I forgot when I made it
   -Bawley: Unlocked the wing slots, added 10 OP, added tenders to the open slots on the variant and advanced turret gyros with the leftover OP
   -Draeck: Unlocked the built in Mizzen wing and added mining drones to the variant
   -Sloop: Added a missing civilian-grade hull tag

[close]

[5ColouredWalker]

Ok, initial thoughts because I was in the process of launching a new game to try out some of the quest line mods from dinkier starts. If there's no comment than I simply approve to varying degrees.


Bawley (And similar): This change is not quite objectively bad, but now the Bawley directly competes with the Naruebet in a bad way. The Naruebet is 10 ODP, 2 hangers, 60OP, and flare launchers as a meh ability. The Bawley is 4DP, 2 hangers, 55 OP, and EMP Burst Wave as a great PD/Combat ability, and half price. It's also slightly faster, though when it comes to hull/shield it does seem flimsier despite the better shield conversion rate due to much lower flux pool and much more fragile physical stats. As I also said the Bawley/Danube/(Knar/Collier)/(Arethusa/Bolster) Line having locked Tender Fighters was Iconic and I didn't think should change.
If you stand behind the decision to unlock them that's fine, but in that case the Danube/Knar/Arethusa need reassessing, and the Bawley needs to have it's DP/costs reassessed straight away. The other's are probably fine, Bolster's more a light capital and can't go ham on the fighters as well as dedicated capitals, not without sacrificing weaponry.
Edit: To be very clear the only real problem is the Bawly and how it competes as a carrier with the Naruebet. The other's I'm lumping in together because it's the best way I could think to discuss them. I don't think the Collier and Bolster having unlocked wings is a problem on any scale other than theming.



Unlocked Wings: I really like the change, lets you choose what sort of fighters you want, and the ones relying on them being PD can now debate using them as such, or sacrificing weapons to PD and being carriers. And if you want mass fighters you can choose to balance fighters with how much benefit you want with the skill, or just mass them and let numbers sort things out. Also with Dromon having 'Command' in the ship type title there's effectively a Lennox/Dromon/Freebooter evolution line, though Dromon doesn't have a built in Ops Centre. It can still be installed with one manually though so it exists in my heart.

Civilian/Insulated: Yay! Also should prevent any confusing 'why +2 speed' moments.

Bourbon: I did a very simple test and threw the prebuilt against a onslaught in autopilot mode. It was no longer quite so one sided, but load out definitely fails it. I then manually controlled it and stomped the Onslaught with Default Load out, so I'll put it as a 'AI doesn't know what it's doing issue' and say it's otherwise fine as is. Especially since it was acting as a Steady Captain and the Wave Motion's outrange the Shredders.
Also, I remembered Wave Motion's being burst firing weapons, and large are just constant beams... I've definitely been overlooking those because those put in solid work.

Dhow: I'll send you a image on discord if I can find you (I think I have, if not I'm 5colouredwalker8401 if you can find me) because I feel like we've been talking past each other, but I was talking about the 3 central mining lasers feeling like there should be 2, or 4 given the budget is exactly 1 OP off and mining lasers are 1 OP.

Coventry: I see what you mean by 'Not everything you want'

Kerberos: Staying on the overflux. Means it'll exist more as a firing platform, but that can probably work if I find some ammunition based mounts to give it time to vent. Oh, and it continues to be a SO build of course because that does work.

[doll]

holy smokes these guns are OP
You know that if you make a weapon do more than five times the damage of it's peers and cost no flux but then make it frag, it's still overpowered, right?

[Darrow]

Respectfully...

A lot of these would be great if they could get intermingled into the other existing factions.

This seems much less of a Faction and more of a Vanilla edition. Thats not a bad thing, it's a REALLY good vanilla/independent faction boost.