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[Megas]

Because they still generate flux if you hit shields, so you can overload someone on high flux to punish them for not dropping shields. Sabots as openers do literally nothing without EMP. I mean just config the files and give them 0 EMP damage if you're so sure they won't be useless. And before using the "just combine them with other weapons lol" argument, you get that the AI is capable of flickering shields right. So if there's a burst coming you're telling me the point of the missile is to use that 0.2 second frame when shields are down to punish the enemy with a weapon that doesn't even exist with that sort of projectile speed. I honestly don't get what you're arguing for here.

I tried that with Sabot v2 (wide shotgun spray), when AI always dropped shields to incoming Sabot.  Using Sabot just to force the enemy to drop shields so I can hit with the likes of plasma cannon or AMBs (no missiles because they are taken by Sabots that create the opening) was underwhelming for the effort.  I was better off with Harpoon (or Reaper) strikes at point-blank.  (Back then, Reapers could hit point-blank, although splash damage could hurt the attacker.)

Sabots, with such limited ammo, need to have some use beyond anti-shield.  At least they are effective hull crushers.

[Alex]

This was something I've wanted to suggest for a year or so, but never thought it would pick up any traction! Very cool, I like Converted Hanger and experiment with it all the time. It was simply laughably bad (in a funny, facepalming way) at times with how easily strikecraft were wiped out.

I look forward to trying this out in the future and seeing if Converted Hanger is in a good spot now.

This was actually driven by the Defective Manufactory side of things - getting it to where the carrier is actually usable. But the same exact code was applying to CH, and then it's like, well, that could probably use some help, too.

The converted hangar buff is something I was pretty happy to see on the new patch notes.  I don't use them much any more, but I still love equipping them on my Apogee's (I've since downgraded from Xyphos wings to Wasp's).  Of questionable benefit alone, they seem to survive a bit longer when fielding 4 or so Apogee's in my end game exploration fleet, so they should be even better now.

I noticed that the art on the fighter wings look broken down when using a converted hangar (well they aren't a proper hangar I guess).  I don't think I noticed it much on wasps, but the Xyphos looked pretty derelict and ready for the scrap yard...is that still the case with the new update? (wasn't a fan of that, but I guess it was used to distinguish them between normal hangars; maybe they could look a little less beat up with the buff?).

Imgur isn't working right now so I attached a comparison between a converted hangar (left) and normal hangar (right)

Hmm, that's a good point - let me tone it down some!

That's fair. I have to wonder, any plans to make another missile oriented at massing them, pushing toward that goal from a different direction? Or is it a niche you think just won't really work in vanilla?

Let me flip the question around - why would a missile like that be good for gameplay?

(I don't immediately see that it would be - it seems like it'd actually be bad, if we're talking about encouraging a "mass this fairly non-interactive thing until you win" strategy, but if you have ideas...!)


Re: Sabots, FWIW that's my reasoning for them having EMP - with limited ammo and a primary use that counters an unlimited resource (shields), it needs to at least do *something* when it doesn't hit shields - especially since that's so easy for the defender to arrange. But if it were, say, more kinetic damage (as it was at one point, when Sabots were a single projectile), then it's too punishing since it goes from "too easy to counter" to "there's no good counter". EMP is the middle ground between that; it's temporary damage but does create some kind of opening, and the defender gets to pick which type of opening they offer.

[intrinsic_parity]

I don't think the issue with sabots is the EMP damage (I agree with the reasoning for having it), I think they do a bit too much kinetic burst, and would rather see that toned back slightly, like 10% less or something.

[Thaago]

Man you're so lucky that Thaago The missile connoisseur is asleep now, this is just too big of a boss fight for us.

Haha the sleeper awakens (but I have a bit of a sore throat so maybe I'll go back to bed).

I agree completely with intrinsic_parity. No weirdo opinions from me right now.

[FooF]

Sabots are a bit tricky and I'll be interested to see if the reduction in EMP damage makes them more or less balanced. The splitting of Sabots has always been, in my mind, a good change because it deals less damage to armor but I've always wondered if Sabots could be a bit more refined by converting some of their damage to soft flux on shields. As it is, a single Sabot does 200 Kinetic damage to shields per submunition, right? What if each submunition was more of a 150 Kinetic Damage with a 100 bonus damage to shields (soft flux)? Same alpha damage but 25% is soft flux and does slightly less damage to armor since the "true" damage portion that hits hull is reduced.

You could even go to the extreme end of this with a similarly functioned EMP torpedo that only does like 50 actual damage but 2000 soft-flux to shields and 1000 EMP damage if it hits. Not sure if I like it but it was the logical conclusion of this.

 

[TaLaR]

I find the discussion about Sabot 2nd stage as something inevitable misplaced.

The best counter to sabots is to just back off a bit. 1st stage is very slow and doesn't travel that far. Unless launched point blank by a faster attacker, backing off is always an option.

Sure, if enemy was just trying to buy time with Sabot, then they succeeded. So it IS useful even then. But as an actual threat to targeted ship? It's only dangerous because AI doesn't do anything about incoming Sabots.

[Anvel]

I would leave subbots alone, it's a weapon, not some rare ship or faction-specific missile, it's a weapon used by every faction. Tune them down and it would be needler spam all over the place.

[intrinsic_parity]

I find the discussion about Sabot 2nd stage as something inevitable misplaced.

The best counter to sabots is to just back off a bit. 1st stage is very slow and doesn't travel that far. Unless launched point blank by a faster attacker, backing off is always an option.

Sure, if enemy was just trying to buy time with Sabot, then they succeeded. So it IS useful even then. But as an actual threat to targeted ship? It's only dangerous because AI doesn't do anything about incoming Sabots.

Not all ships are fast enough to back off, especially big ships. Missiles also inherit momentum, so you can do silly things like fire them during a mobility system usage (plasma burn on odyssey/fury/shrike) to send them flying towards the enemy in a nearly unavoidable way. It's definitely not just an AI issue.

It's also just a really annoying gameplay loop: stop fighting for 5-10 seconds to run away. Particularly if you have to burn mobility system charges and then wait for them to re-gen in order to re-engage.

Also, in the chaos of battle it's easy to miss a sabot (particularly when they can be on top of other things) and suddenly find yourself high on flux or overloaded with little to no warning, so I don't think 'just avoid them 4-head' is really a solution.

[Maethendias]

shield shunt looks VERY interessting now... 25 %? thats ALOT

[IronBorn]

I was wondering if you could buff the Medusa a little bit? I've tried many different builds and it just isn't worth the deployment points to use over Wolf frigates. The biggest problem with the Medusa, compared to a Wolf, is it is far more likely to take armor and hull damage when teleporting in to attack. That is because it is so much wider than the Wolf, and has an Omni shield, it takes much longer to get its shield up, so it always takes hits. 

After a lot of testing, I found having accelerated shields greatly helped in catching shots when the Medusa teleported in to attack. Adding accelerated shields as a standard built-in hullmod to the Medusa would really help its survivability. And maybe a small increase in armor by 50 and hull by 500 for the occasional shots that do make it through.

While the Medusa is considered a glass cannon by many, we already have the Shrike for that role. And the Shrike has greater survivability because its mobility system doesn't drop the shield and leave it open to attack.

[Sozzer]

That's fair. I have to wonder, any plans to make another missile oriented at massing them, pushing toward that goal from a different direction? Or is it a niche you think just won't really work in vanilla?

Let me flip the question around - why would a missile like that be good for gameplay?

(I don't immediately see that it would be - it seems like it'd actually be bad, if we're talking about encouraging a "mass this fairly non-interactive thing until you win" strategy, but if you have ideas...!)

Hrm. I think the main problem is when massing it becomes a win condition for battles in itself, rather than an alternative to a specific element of a playstyle, such as making them serve the position of consistent pressure.
The main problem with them in my experience was that there tended to be kind of a "tipping point" where you had enough pilums that you essentially just overwhelmed defenses by default and would win if the enemy ever dropped their shields. If they could be made to have minimal kill pressure on their own, it'd probably be ideal. Certainly, not being able to tear up armour would be a considerable help. I might tinker around with the concept for a bit and see what comes of it.
One thing I'm kind of tempted by is finding a way to appropriately fit them into ballistic slots; awkward to do, but it'd mean that the considerable value of a missile slot doesn't have to be respected as heavily, while also meaning your main source of pressure becomes a genuine choice between conventional guns and massed missiles. I'll see what happens I guess.

[Sarissofoi]

RELEASE SOON FELLOW LOW TECH CAPTAINS!!!

Spoiler

Its soon right? Right?

[close]

[Jackundor]

Hurrican is getting nerfed? why?

[Grievous69]

Hurrican is getting nerfed? why?

No clue as well. The base missile isn't even strong, it's too spread out without ECCM, and with ECCM and missile skills it become too good. The progression should be a bit less severe imo.

[Amoebka]

The +10% missile damage is back, so perhaps hurricane needed a nerf to prevent the good old "2 eccm hurricanes oneshot a destroyer" builds.