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Author Topic: Carriers in 0.95  (Read 8316 times)

Megas

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Re: Carriers in 0.95
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2021, 10:16:09 AM »

...Carriers are just more exacerbated in that their best guns, fighters, also happen to be flux free and of great range, so you lose little by spending all your OP on making fighters perform as good as possible. The easiest way of making carriers play and fit more like other ships is to make fighters use the carrier's flux in some way, but I don't expect this to happen. Or fighters could be nerfed so much, they are worse than even the worst of guns, so there would be no incentive to use them instead of actual guns. This sort of happened, but instead of players choosing guns over fighters on their carriers, they choose warships over carriers in their fleets.
Dedicated carriers sort of pay for their fighters with inferior stats and mounts.  So does Gryphon for their extra missiles, and most hybrid freighters for their greater cargo capacities.

I would not want fighters using flux unless carriers' stats were upgraded to full-blown warships of their weight class (barring obvious exceptions).  I agree that making fighters too weak means players will dump them for warships.  (I did during this release and all of the 0.7x era.)  After all, if all fighters do is die then trickle in as a non-threat for the rest of the fight, then all the player is left with is a gimped warship at best or a freighter (that hauls fighters) at worst.

During 0.6, no one had skills except the fleet commander, and carriers and fighters were more-or-less as viable as anything else.  Then came 0.7 with officers, and fleets had up to eleven people with skills, and skilled warships blew carriers and fighters out of the water.  Then 0.8 came with redone carriers with carrier hullmods, powerful carrier skills, and overpowered Talons, Sparks, Lux, and Warthogs.  Carrier skills and fighters have been nerfed steadily (but later, the Perdition wing was added and it was overpowered in the first release it appeared in).  Some, like Warthogs were overnerfed, while Sparks remained overpowered when spammed even after the nerf (until a further nerf in 0.95).  This latest release, nerfed carrier skills (or simply made them impossible to take if player wanted other competing skills to take) and nerfed Drover, various fighters, and Expanded Deck Crew.  If you do not take a certain skill path, your carriers will be unskilled like in 0.7x, and your only boost is Expanded Deck Crew, which was nerfed too.

In the end, carriers are probably at their worst as they ever been.  Fighter power is about as weak as they were in 0.7, but now player cannot command fighters to do fun things like capture points, search for enemies hiding behind fog-of-war, or simply deploy them without the carrier.  To add insult to injury, this is with carriers min-maxing their loadouts for fighter use, with almost no guns.  At least 0.7x carriers could use guns (because OP could only be spent on warship stuff or campaign QoL), which were not enough when fighters died out after the first minute or two of a fifteen minute or longer battle.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2021, 10:18:09 AM by Megas »
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Üstad

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Re: Carriers in 0.95
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2022, 09:50:53 AM »

Now that Alex has overnerfed carriers in 0.95, with enemies with superior officer/skill power and a more awkward and limited skill system, fighters are in their worst shape as they ever been.  About as weak as they were in 0.7x, the last releases when fighters were ships, but now player cannot control fighters beyond that of missiles.  Fighters just buzz around like Locusts or Ziggurat's motes, well... more like the old ship systems that launched drones.
Agreed, new system kinda forces us to regular focused ship, carrier or phase focused fleets are not viable. It didn't get any better with nerfing specific carriers such as Astral and Tempest.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 02:49:57 PM by Üstad »
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Megas

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Re: Carriers in 0.95
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2022, 10:04:47 AM »

Tempest is basically a mini-Doom, where the drones are basically ship system-based missiles because the AI will always lob them like Harpoons.  This means if you want Tempests with PD, it must dedicate one of its slots to a burst PD.  Now, my default loadout with Tempests is pulse laser and heavy burst PD.  May use Ion Pulser and small burst PD instead at times.

0.95.1 makes it easier to get carrier skills (and officers add more bonus automatically), although I still have no room for any Leadership with my preferred skill loadout of Combat/Technology/Industry 5.

Expanded Deck Crew alone is not quite enough later in the game.  Either that hullmod needs to be restored to its former glory or its OP cost reduced so that carriers can have enough OP for warship stuff like ITU, guns, and flux.

P.S.  The one carrier I am disappointed in now is Heron.  Mora got +10 OP and it can arm itself with both midgrade guns and fighters.  Heron got nothing and still needs to skimp on either guns, fighters, or hullmods (like Mora did before it got +10 OP) until it gets s-mods.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 10:29:39 AM by Megas »
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MrTwister

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Re: Carriers in 0.95
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2022, 12:37:24 AM »

I'd say that two main things need to happen to help fighters become well-balanced:

1) Non-PD weapons should have no collision and no targeting with all fighters and bombers - same as missiles.
2) Fighter armor rating and shielding should both provide extra protection against area-effect PD weapons - perhaps a flat 70-90% extra effectiveness of fighter armor against area effect and extra 0.5 multiplier for shield hits for area-effect PD, single-target PD should have no change. Also missiles, including fighter missiles should have similar properties against area-effect PD.

Optional:
3) Perhaps 1-2 extra combat/technology skills for carrier officers or maybe a hullmod or two - let's leave it to Alex's imagination.
4) For dedicated frontline fighters, especially shielded ones (like Broadsword and Lux Heavy) - some boosts to flux venting or special skills to be able to vent/deflux quickly would be nice.

If the above is true, it will become well-balanced in my humble opinion.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 12:45:58 AM by MrTwister »
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Jotun

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Re: Carriers in 0.95
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2022, 01:52:03 AM »

I'd say that two main things need to happen to help fighters become well-balanced:

1) Non-PD weapons should have no collision and no targeting with all fighters and bombers - same as missiles.


And thus making space station battles absolute hell (and the doritos)? Please no. As someone that loves flying a destroyer, that sounds like a terrible idea. Having to back off and focus most of your fire power against fighters is enough already, getting instantly deleted because "LOL not enough PD" isn't particularly fun. What do you do against space stations then? Because it's a zero sum game: don't bring PD at all and get instantly deleted. Survive because you have enough PDs but the fight gets extremely slow because you had to sacrifice fire power for PD. Ofc I see your answer to this "bring more carriers" which... would just bring us back to boring carrier and missile spam (which still is viable as of now, just not as broken OP).

Full disclosure: I don't like carriers very much and just have a couple in my fleet every run and never capitals. I think this should remain a valid playstyle.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 02:02:04 AM by Jotun »
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Goumindong

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Re: Carriers in 0.95
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2022, 09:39:47 AM »

Now that carriers are no longer oppressive maybe it’s time to go back to the old system where carriers provided flight decks for fighters and the fighters were their own ships that were in your fleet.

OR

let us swap fighters around in carriers without a CR refit cost or time such that carriers can be tailored to the fleets you’re fighting without having to dock.

Edit: since the first one is frought with issues let’s examine a system for which it could work.

Each carrier grants fighter slots to the fleet equal to its total number of flight decks and total fighter deployment points equal to its free OP. So you more or less have the same fitting considerations as now. But you can make your choice of which fighters to bring at the deployment stage based on what kind of fighters you think you need for that fight. This would also allow you to utilize makeshift hangars on ships without free OP as a way to modulate how many fighters you wanted to bring by shifting the OP requirements around your fleet.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 09:51:00 AM by Goumindong »
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Megas

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Re: Carriers in 0.95
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2022, 11:13:09 AM »

PD weapons are generally anti-missile, and the ones good enough to be anti-fighter too are also good enough against bigger ships.  If I am more concerned about fighters than missiles, I want anti-ship weapons.
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Kanjejou

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Re: Carriers in 0.95
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2022, 10:11:16 AM »

Personally i find carrier to be very effectiv... short range PD like vulcan may melt them but most fighter and bomber dont enter their range.

So you need flack but except on direct hit you need multiple to destroy wings effectively and once again most bomber may never enter the PD range before unleashing their payload.

-For balistic PD you need

Specialised captain so the damages are enough to clean those fighters
Lots of med slots  because vulcan doesn't screen well with its super short range, the large flack is super strong but super costly and it hurt a lot to use a large balistic for PD
ITU mod to get a decent range out of them


-So energy PD look like a solution but:

They are flux intensiv/Inneficient
Have a relatively poor dps

-So for energy PD you need:

Dedicated captain
PD hullmod
Lots of slots (any size) on the ship or most of its time it will only do PD duty...
Energy mastery to no overflux when shooting down stuff


For me carrier are quite okay right now, dangerous/annoying and if you dont build against them expect to get bullied by them.
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Inheritance

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Re: Carriers in 0.95
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2022, 05:51:53 AM »

I've started my first playthrough and thought hey let me get some Legions to replace my Drovers... a terrible idea. At this point, I'm using my Drovers as a first strike barrage and then I immediately retreated all of them because they will have next to no fighters and they're just prone to dying. I'll bring in 6 send target 3 of them on 2 destroyer-size ships and hope I can blow it up or at least do some dmg and then it's time for them to dip while the rest of my fleet also flys back to group up with the reinforcements. I am sure this will not work by the late game since it's barely working now.

Just my 2 cents but I think a viable option would be
1. The more expensive fighters need a small reduction in OP.
2. Carriers should have backups on standby to replace the lost fighters and they can make new ones up to the backup limit.
eg. you get 3 Daggers per card so the carrier would have 6 daggers at the start of the battle. and deploy 3 of them. If you lose some it just uses the backup and starts making more.
3. the time to replace them should be shortened by 2-5 seconds. depending on OP cost and current time

This way they are not so OP that you can spam them alone because PD will still take the fighters out. They can actually have enough fighters to be constant pressure on the enemy for a while and not become a useless hunk of metal.
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vok3

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Re: Carriers in 0.95
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2022, 11:56:09 AM »

I've started my first playthrough

Am I understanding this correctly?  This is your first time playing the game, and you're writing long posts about game balance?

I admire the courage but perhaps you should try different loadouts and tactics a bit more.  The idea of retreating a bunch of carriers as soon as they're done with their initial attack strikes me as supremely weird and ineffective.  I'm hardly an expert on carriers but I know for a fact that a solo Drover can kite various targets all over the map and wear them down, and certainly six Drovers worth of Dagger bombers focused all on one ship can pop nearly any given target really fast.  Then you have them sit back, rebuild/rearm, and mass-attack the next target.  Retreating them all and then writing a post complaining that the tactic doesn't work ... really, I admire the courage, but I question the wisdom.
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Inheritance

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Re: Carriers in 0.95
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2022, 02:17:25 AM »

If that was long then I feel sorry for you. Hope you don't get stuck with a job that requires any reading on your part. Yes, you are understanding it correctly I am 300 hours in on my first playthrough so I am writing a post on a possible change to something that a lot of people seem to have enjoyed in past patches but is underwhelming in the current patch. A majority of the people here agree they aren't as good as before and need a balance change. The tactic of not using any carriers and using other fast attack ships works amazingly well.

I'm sure you have thousands of hours of playtime so let's hear your amazing plans on how to use carriers while not having them be blown up when fighting remnants being outnumbered 240 deployment points to 160. Because clearly everyone else in the thread had no clue what they are doing and hasn't tried any other tactic with their carriers.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2022, 02:35:55 AM by Inheritance »
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Grievous69

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Re: Carriers in 0.95
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2022, 02:32:51 AM »

Ahh I remember when I was this bitter online, good times.

Anyways your suggestions would just make carriers busted again, so that's why you received that sort of reply, also the strat you're doing is ultra weird. The other person was rude for no reason tho. Take it easy man and explore a bit more. Number of hours played means very little since everyone plays differently.
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Please don't take me too seriously.

vok3

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Re: Carriers in 0.95
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2022, 04:10:23 AM »

If that was long then I feel sorry for you. Hope you don't get stuck with a job that requires any reading on your part.

You're being really defensive and passive aggressive.  There's no need for it.  You made a post advocating balance changes when you can't possibly have tried many of the alternative tactics and loadouts.  That just makes you look silly.  I asked because it really surprised me someone would do something like that.

Quote
Yes, you are understanding it correctly I am 300 hours in on my first playthrough so I am writing a post on a possible change to something that a lot of people seem to have enjoyed in past patches but is underwhelming in the current patch. A majority of the people here agree they aren't as good as before and need a balance change.

This is one thread with a handful of people talking in it.  The people who are motivated to post are of course going to be motivated toward certain points of view.  The total number of people here frustrated with carriers is negligible compared to the total number of people actually playing the game and enjoying carriers enough not to complain about them.

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I'm sure you have thousands of hours of playtime

I haven't kept a stopwatch on it.  I've played off and on for a few months or so.  Enough to know there's a lot of stuff I haven't even gotten started on trying.

Quote
so let's hear your amazing plans on how to use carriers while not having them be blown up when fighting remnants being outnumbered 240 deployment points to 160. Because clearly everyone else in the thread had no clue what they are doing and hasn't tried any other tactic with their carriers.

To start with, I'm told that Claw fighters are very good specifically against those targets.  Claws are one of the things I haven't had a chance to try yet, it wouldn't surprise me if there are others.  It would surprise me very much if you had carefully tried a majority of the options before making your post.

For my part, in my first playthrough I settled on a fleet of Onslaught-XIV, Legion-XIV, and a lot of shield-hardened Hammerheads.  Mostly autofit on all of them.  I could handle single-Radiant fleets with that.  I'm sure there's improvements to be made to handle two-Radiant fleets, but I've been trying other things.

The other person was rude for no reason tho.

I wasn't being rude.  I seriously do admire and approve of the courage required to stand up in the middle of a bunch of strangers and tell them they're all totally wrong and they should be doing things differently.  I admire it, but it's nearly always a bad idea and leaves the person doing it looking ignorant and silly, which is why one should really do the homework first. 

If I wanted to be rude I promise you'd know it.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2022, 04:24:06 AM by vok3 »
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Inheritance

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Re: Carriers in 0.95
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2022, 01:25:46 AM »

Ok, good for you. I know I have played enough and tried enough of the game to understand that most carriers do not bring enough to the table, Deployment wise, in a lot of situations late game. You picked an argument with someone on their opinion over the sole fact it's their "first playthrough". I am talking about balance vs large fleets and Radients doesn't matter what playthrough one is on. I'm not at all surprised someone would make themselves look silly trying to judge other players' experiences based on their own gameplay and experience. 

Claws are not the answer. they are easily obtainable early on from raiding for BP or just buying them when they show up, and even low threat radiant sectors have the BP. And unless it's an omega weapon which you cant build AFAIK, I have the BP to every ship and weapon and fighter in the game. And I've played with them all. I'm missing 2 hull mods neither of which would matter for a carrier. Yes, that fleet can handle Radiant so that's one carrier that has the most firepower in the game but is still underperforming compared to bringing other ships in their place. An Aurora spam can take out 2 fleets, along with countless other tactics that aren't carrier heavy.

I never said the dev was doing anything totally wrong. It's some ideas to tweak the balance of carriers. And it's a forum with a post on a topic I agree with so ill give my opinion, if that is courageous for you I would really suggest you look into the meaning of that word.  Assuming how much "homework" has been done or experience another player has is just sad. you have no idea what I have and haven't tried. I agree with the people that say they are not Deployment efficient and have been nerfed too much, if the dev changes it great if not it really doesn't matter.

I'm done with the conversation as it's pointless. Good luck on your grind for experience and tactics.
Sorry to everyone for this thread going soo off-topic.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2022, 01:38:42 AM by Inheritance »
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