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Author Topic: Please don't overnerf the Fury  (Read 5487 times)

Grievous69

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Please don't overnerf the Fury
« on: September 01, 2021, 12:13:07 PM »

Yes, everyone and their mother agrees it's super strong right now and it needs to get slapped on the wrist a bit. But that's the thing, it should get toned down not to be oppressive, not absolutely destroyed and thrown in the back alley. I recall some previous examples where such things happened (hello Drover) so I'm just asking for appropriate changes. We finally have a competent high tech warship and I'd hate to see it become Aurora 2.0, or actually 0.5 when I think about it, an overpriced player only ship.

The reason I made this post is because I randomly remembered a comment somewhere saying how it's gonna get bumped to 20 DP which will be hilarious without any other changes. Apogee is 18 DP... Thank you for listening Mr. developer.

Feel free to tell me if I'm in denial and it should definitely get annihilated.
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DownTheDrain

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2021, 12:34:10 PM »

On the plus side, if it does get nerfed into the ground there's a chance it will get hilariously overbuffed in some future update.
Looking at you, Doom.
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Megas

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2021, 12:38:45 PM »

Apogee feels underpriced a bit, being able to tank things while killing things with Plasma and Locusts.  If Fury is 20, so should Apogee.  Honestly, Fury probably would have been worth 18 DP at most in the previous release.  Energy weapons were buffed this release and they have Energy Mastery.

Aurora was mediocre last release (good mostly for bullying things smaller than it, which was not worth 30 OP), but the improvements to various energy weapons, especially to Ion Pulser, and Pulse Laser to a lesser extent, made it better.
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Grievous69

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2021, 12:41:20 PM »

Apogee feels underpriced a bit, being able to tank things while killing things with Plasma and Locusts.  If Fury is 20, so should Apogee.  Honestly, Fury probably would have been worth 18 DP at most in the previous release.  Energy weapons were buffed this release and they have Energy Mastery.
I share the exact same thoughts.

And yeah, Doom is a whole another can of worms, can't wait to see what happens to it next patch.
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Megas

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2021, 12:44:25 PM »

One more thing:  Throw a bone to the high-tech blueprint pack and add Fury to it!  Fury is the high-tech's Falcon, and (standard) Falcon is in the midline blueprint pack.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 12:46:23 PM by Megas »
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FooF

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2021, 12:49:52 PM »

I thought the only change (and I could be falsely remembering) is that its DP is being raised to 20. No other stat changes. That's more than reasonable, I think. It's more of a warship than an Apogee and it will reflect that but it's still no Aurora, overall.

The best thing about the Fury, honestly, is that's it's not super rare. You find them relatively frequently on markets and they make a good flagship. My only hope is that the Burn Speed doesn't get nerfed with the DP increase. That's what makes it a "Light" Cruiser, in my opinion.

@Megas

Total agreement. It should be a "standard" High Tech blueprint.
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Megas

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2021, 12:54:01 PM »

Apogee is not fast like other high-tech, but when it gets the best weapons, it feels almost like a heavy cruiser, but has the cost of an elite destroyer or light cruiser.  Falcon just feels like a Hammerhead that is bigger and faster, but with less firepower (because it trades power from AAF for speed from Jets).

Last release, I would consider Apogee superior to Aurora.  This release, I am not sure.  The changes in 0.95 were kind to high-tech (except for Paragon).
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Grievous69

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2021, 12:55:34 PM »

I think I already suggested somewhere that Apogee and Fury should switch places in the blueprint pack. It makes the most sense. High tech blueprint package in general is very barren, so it actually confirms the doubts of people who think the tech types are genuine tiers. When there's not even a half the number of ships in the high tech package, new folks are obviously going to believe they're super rare strong ships. Not saying it should have tons of ships, but a single frigate, destroyer and a cruiser is kinda lame.

@Foof
Wouldn't it be super weird if there's a "light" cruiser having 20 DP cost and then an exploration ship (which is actually great in combat) with TWO large slots being 18 DP. It's the only non capital high tech ship that has large mounts, and it's not even made for combat, supposedly.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 01:03:42 PM by Grievous69 »
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Megas

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2021, 01:02:34 PM »

I rather have both Apogee AND Fury in the high-tech pack.  The high-tech pack does not have enough ships in it.

Quote
Not saying it should have tons of ships, but a single frigates, destroyer and a cruiser is kinda lame.
And the cruiser Apogee seems to be designed like a combat freighter (exploration), yet it overperforms enough to be on par with a proper warship.

On another note, Venture used to be similarly as good as Apogee until it gained civilian hull and mining pods forced into its fighter bays in 0.8a.
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FooF

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2021, 01:50:31 PM »

I think I already suggested somewhere that Apogee and Fury should switch places in the blueprint pack. It makes the most sense. High tech blueprint package in general is very barren, so it actually confirms the doubts of people who think the tech types are genuine tiers. When there's not even a half the number of ships in the high tech package, new folks are obviously going to believe they're super rare strong ships. Not saying it should have tons of ships, but a single frigate, destroyer and a cruiser is kinda lame.

@Foof
Wouldn't it be super weird if there's a "light" cruiser having 20 DP cost and then an exploration ship (which is actually great in combat) with TWO large slots being 18 DP. It's the only non capital high tech ship that has large mounts, and it's not even made for combat, supposedly.

That says more about the Apogee than the Fury. The Apogee is probablly underpriced, as well, but ever since the Medium Energies in the back no longer can focus fire with the Large Energy, I think the Apogee has had its overall combat profile nerfed significantly. Its true saving grace is its absurd shield with high base capacity. It's really not bringing that much more firepower to a fight than a Sunder, especially with the Large Missile being offset a little, however unlike a Sunder, it can take a pounding.

I wouldn't complain if they were both 20 DP. One's a tough exploration craft that can shoot its way out if it has to and the other is a very fast opportunist. However, I don't think it would be too "weird" for the 20 DP Fury to be faster than the 18 DP Apogee that also has decent cargo/fuel capacity.
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Megas

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2021, 03:10:03 PM »

That says more about the Apogee than the Fury. The Apogee is probablly underpriced, as well, but ever since the Medium Energies in the back no longer can focus fire with the Large Energy, I think the Apogee has had its overall combat profile nerfed significantly. Its true saving grace is its absurd shield with high base capacity. It's really not bringing that much more firepower to a fight than a Sunder, especially with the Large Missile being offset a little, however unlike a Sunder, it can take a pounding.
It is hard enough to focus-fire anything other than beams even when Apogee's mounts could fire forward before.  (Apogee had to practically kiss the enemy to have rear heavy blasters pound things, and kissing things in melee range is not what you want Apogee to do when you wanted to exploit extra shot range granted by two ion drones.)  They are more useful as (anti-frigate) PD, and for that role, pulse lasers are fine.

Apogee can fire plasma cannon almost continuously.  Capitals (aside from Radiant) can only comfortably support two (or two plus less powerful weapons), and they cost more than double than Apogee.  It is also better than two heavy blasters non-SO Aurora could support (which is why I think Aurora was overpriced before).  Locusts or MIRVs are not insignificant.  Aurora almost needed sabots to support heavy blasters.  Apogee (today) can shoot plasma willy-nilly.

Now, Apogee lost the old Sensor drones that extended shot range and sight radius, although unlimited Active Flares gave it the anti-missile PD it desperately needed.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 03:13:02 PM by Megas »
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ubuntufreakdragon

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2021, 05:27:11 PM »

I really like to have a 15 DP High Tech Cruiser, I always happen to have exactly 15 DP left somehow.
The main downside of the Apogees L guns is, they are hardpoints, a single L Energy Turret would be a nice Concept used by the Champion, a high tech alternative would be funny.
The Venture could at least get a second mining pod, and if it stays civil Salvage Gantry, or a militarized heg version without mining drones and a hybrid turret instead of energy.
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Thaago

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2021, 09:12:08 PM »

Unpopular opinion: I think Apogees are actually priced ok at 18 because they aren't that good. They combine being slow with being short ranged so can't deal with asymmetric situations, and their enormous shield radius makes so they block allies from firing. The large missile is quite good and the large energy is potentially good for things that come to it, but they are extremely easy to lose in hard fights because of their lack of mobility. I've found them to be more liability than asset.

I'd be ok with Furies at 20 and Apogees at 18 because Furies are better!
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Grievous69

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2021, 05:19:42 AM »

Wanted to remind myself of the precise stats between the two ships and there's one thing that doesn't make sense. Fury, a light cruiser spends 3 fuel/ly while Apogee spends only 2. This is such a minor thing but I swear some of the logistics stats for ships in this game are truly weird.

@Thaago
I didn't know it was possible to start a sentence with "unpopular opinion" and then actually say something that's unpopular, well done mate. Fair points tho but for me the slow speed doesn't make a difference, its role in the fleet is to tank and fight back and it does that incredibly well. Obviously Furies are better for certain tasks but if my fleet is full of glass cannons and carriers, then I'd take Apogee over Fury any day.
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hydremajor

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2021, 05:40:47 AM »

y'all remember back when a single Apogee with a tachyon lance could rule the world ?
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