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Author Topic: Highfleet... ugh  (Read 12346 times)

SCC

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Re: Highfleet... ugh
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2021, 10:53:51 PM »

I dunno. I think there are a similar number of things going on in the campaign layer of both games, just at different levels of detail. Starsector has simpler sensor mechanics, but it also has terrain and campaign abilities unrelated to sensors.
I guess SS also has fleet manoeuvring (and abilities) going for it.



I just have no idea why, or at what point in the development they decided to remove fleet on fleet combat and make this very clunky 'hyperion' system.
"It worked for Star Control/Pirates!, let's not reinvent the wheel", maybe? I also don't see any evidence that the dev ever thought of the entire player fleet fighting at the same time.

Also, my god, Star Sector's weapon groups feel like a call from heaven. In Highfleet i need to what, use half my keyboard to fire my guns, that's aside from the special systems and whatever? Makes me want to never fly big complicated ships.
You can be using half your keyboard to pilot the ship (which I don't mind, but hotkey sheet somewhere in the game could be nice), but for guns use only 2 mouse buttons. And to think 5 weapon groups in SS was sometimes not enough...

On that note, i'm sure none of you realised you can 'PAN' RIGHT the Supplies screen, where you buy fuel, to buy special ammo and missiles. Seriously devs? Seriously?
I caught up on it because the game loves panning. Panning in cities, in shipworks, in supplies...

TaLaR

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Re: Highfleet... ugh
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2021, 01:05:50 AM »

I strongly suspect even if fleet vs fleet was an option, it would have been a badly sub-optimal one. Something you'd only use against easiest opponents. AI doesn't seem to really dodge, for one.

Aiming is definitely trickier than necessary, but tolerable if you enable long aiming line (off by default) and set glitches to low.

There are lot of clunky design decisions (like visual design generally trumping usability) and simply bugs, but I think core of the game is really good. Not Starsector-good, but I can't play just one game forever, right?
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Pratapon51

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Re: Highfleet... ugh
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2021, 02:59:13 AM »

I bought the game and while I feel that Highfleet would have benefitted greatly from a half-year EA period, enjoy the core of the campaign. Comparisons to SS's polish feel both apples-and-oranges as well as a little unfair, as SS has had the opportunity to benefit from many years of feedback. At any rate, patches seem to be frequent (if undocumented here and there) and the devs are generally responsive, so I've got faith the game will be in a much better state in several months.

I do wish fleet vs. fleet was a thing, so I'd have a reason to arm and armor support ships, but having seen how often the enemy AI kills itself through friendly fire....  :o
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Cosmitz

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Re: Highfleet... ugh
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2021, 03:42:48 AM »

enable long aiming line (off by default)

Saw that in a video eventually. Somewhat better, but still, jesus christ. Felt like it was added like "fiiiine, here you go, it doesn't even have graphics, it's a longer line, enjoy plebs".

Quote
I do wish fleet vs. fleet was a thing, so I'd have a reason to arm and armor support ships, but having seen how often the enemy AI kills itself through friendly fire....

I did just notice it's at most 1 vs 3, but it still feels like it's aiming towards those super 'hyperion'-y builds. A bigger ship will just get entirely shot up since it can't really dodge.

Quote
I bought the game and while I feel that Highfleet would have benefitted greatly from a half-year EA period,

If anything, i don't think more time for them to do their thing would have helped. They needed to iterate more.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 03:47:14 AM by Cosmitz »
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Pratapon51

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Re: Highfleet... ugh
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2021, 09:47:20 PM »

Some enemies use proximity shells which will often chip away at super-nimble craft. That said, the AI's telegraphed aim is still avoidable even by are latively hulking ship. APS + walls of 37mm PD fire take care of what can't be dodged, and whatever gets through still needs to get through armor and structure.
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SCC

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Re: Highfleet... ugh
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2021, 07:18:47 AM »

So, Alex, did you see anything you'll get inspired by? I'm looking mainly at the story/overarching goal department.

Alex

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Re: Highfleet... ugh
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2021, 04:53:13 PM »

So, Alex, did you see anything you'll get inspired by? I'm looking mainly at the story/overarching goal department.

Gotta be completely honest - not a knock on HF at all, but I've been super absorbed working on Starsector stuff and haven't touched it since my previous post in this thread.
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Highfleet... ugh
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2021, 06:06:12 PM »

So, Alex, did you see anything you'll get inspired by? I'm looking mainly at the story/overarching goal department.

Gotta be completely honest - not a knock on HF at all, but I've been super absorbed working on Starsector stuff and haven't touched it since my previous post in this thread.
Aha, you must be planning something really big!
Since skills are done, what's next? Contact content?
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Deshara

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Re: Highfleet... ugh
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2021, 03:56:23 AM »

.

i always get the sense that you barely play any vibdeogames bc ur always working on SS lol its a bit like watching an Amish guy build a fabulous car; you try to talk to hm about how it's similar or different to other great cars & he just looks at you blanky & shrugs bc he doesn't drive lmfao
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Sundog

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Re: Highfleet... ugh
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2021, 11:41:32 AM »

Heh, I think this is the first time I've read a complaint about a developer working on their game too much  :P

I disagree with Alex about plenty of things, so I think I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think your analogy is fair. Starsector is proof that Alex has enough gaming experience to make a good game. Playing other games might inspire him or change his mind about certain principles of design, but he can't play everything, and he can't (for example) perpetually rebuild the economy simulation from the ground up in pursuit of perfection. There's only so much time.

xenoargh

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Re: Highfleet... ugh
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2021, 05:13:01 PM »

On the "splitting fleets" thing... this is a feature SS should have. The way it works now, where you can't even grab your local Defense Fleets to join you in a battle, remains problematic, imo. This is something Mount and Blade got largely right.

Anyhow, several patches later, HF still feels... unpleasant to play.  Really, I feel like this is something where they could've simplified their systems and ended up with a much better product, but didn't, because, "hey, it works" trumped, "but is it actually fun".
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Deshara

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Re: Highfleet... ugh
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2021, 03:18:49 AM »

This is something Mount and Blade got largely right.

oh my god the feeling of having a swirling maelstrom of armies orbiting your army in M&B is so good
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InfinitySquared

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Re: Highfleet... ugh
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2021, 03:42:08 AM »

I quite enjoyed Highfleet, to be honest.

It's probably a subjective thing, but I found the combat gameplay to be very engaging and I quickly got used to the lack of a crosshair. Corvette fights are quite hectic. I don't quite understand how WASD to move, space to fire missiles, F to fire flares, C to fire counter-missiles, R to change ammo types, and B to deploy fire suppressant is too many keys? Starsector uses just about the same amount of keys, even slightly more and it's just as natural.

As for the 1v3 fights, IIRC the dev felt that including friendly ships would cause a lot of frustration for players, as a mistake made by the AI would mean losing expensive components or a ship entirely. I don't entirely agree with that, as the enemy AI seems smart enough for the most part, but it's easy to get enemies to friendly-fire into their peers.

Ship construction felt versatile too, once I got the hang of it. The in-campaign shipwork screen doesn't really bother me all that much: there's not enough time to construct an entirely new ship from the ground up, so I just use it to do minor refits or to replace missing parts.

I was able to come up with this flagship replacement after a few days. Granted, this guide helped quite a lot in figuring out the mechanics: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2567187029


The aim reticle allows the player to learn a lot of cognitive skills regarding the game systems in terms of projectile speed, spread and just the 'feel' of weapons. There is NONE of that in highfleet. Compare nailing that out-of-range heavy blaster shot on a Hound, to.. whatever the hell's going on in Highfleet. It's terrible, feels bad, and makes me not want to play the combat. I also hear it gets worse, with aircraft attacking your fleet (well, your flagship since of course) and other such things like cruise missiles.

Aircraft and cruise missiles don't actually appear in the main combat. Instead they're sort of a minigame where you have to engage them and only them alongside your fleet. Different guns also have very different playstyles.

You don't have to land anything to access the city screen either.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 03:43:39 AM by InfinitySquared »
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ViktorShahter

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Re: Highfleet... ugh
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2022, 02:53:58 PM »

This is surprising how I randomly find it by just using Google, but... actually, after reading I have what to say.

First of all: lore and world in the game. Developer of this game is from Russia (I'm an Ukrainian) and he once said that he orthodoxian who really believe in God. And of course that's shows up in some parts of game. This is like Stalker or Metro: you can play the game but there is something what can understand only a true member of slavic culture. Romani Empire is a reference to Russian Empire in times of Alexander II Romanov (here is why Romani not a reference to Rome but for Romanov dynasty). Shown world for me looking like reference to Afghanistan with all this multicultural nations and differences in seeing a Romani dominance over Herat. So to understand this game totally you must be familiar with slavic culture and history.

And also I had been shocked when I saw here comparing SS and HF. This is very different games. HF more like submarine sims. If you played Silent Hunter, Dangerous Waters, UBOAT, Cold Waters, etc, you can easily see some kind of similarity. Economic system here compared to UBOAT, global map more like simplified Dangerous Waters gameplay. All this game looking simplified in comparation to other game. Look into shipyard onto the parts for building your ship. You have few variants of light guns, few variants of heavy guns, one rocket, few strategical rockets, two planes and... that's all? Look on the interface. Everything just fits on one screen: passive and active reconnaissance, rocket and planes launching interface, radio-interception stuff, etc, it's all fitted on your screen and accessible in few clicks. If you look on Dangerous Waters – there are so much buttons to push and so much stuff to use. Mechanics? Yeah, if your radar find something, you don't have a nice marker on map unless you draw it by yourself. But do you at least once count a distance between two points and, using time what passed between it, count speed and approximately point of your rocket/fleet/planes intercept this contact? Of course no! You can, yeah, but any sense? Your planes/rocket find target by itself, your fleet can be controlled, so there is just no point for that.

Fights really close to SS but not so. Of course they're simplified: not so much mechanics, not so much difference in weapons and ships and more and more and more... Much people hate aiming arrow. Well, how do you think game can be with good crosshair? But with this arrow fights feel so adrenaline and epic when you trying to shoot your enemy and avoid those missiles. This is just a reasonable part of game design and I totally agree with it. I can explain battles in HF like moving from newest aircarrier/cruiser/destroyer to WWII battleship. It's old and rusty, it's weapons incomparable with high-tech rockets, guns and planes. But when you, after listening ASMR loading of your 180mm guns on "Sevastopol", shoot a whole pack of "gifts" into a unprotected part of their heavy cruiser, you receive so much adrenaline and satisfaction that can't be received from any from those modern toys. Also this gameplay reminds me those old simple casual games where gameplay based on simple action itself not on the rich mechanics.

So summary what we get:
+ atmospheric game with dozens of small highly-cultural things things
+ good combination of simulation parts and casual gameplay
+ some hardcore on hard difficulty
+ lore what comes not from direct speech but from short parts of dialogs
+ pretty interesting story like for me (yeah, it's not gorgeous but I was intrigued at some points)
+ good bunch of "diplomatic" mechanics
- not so deep diplomacy (can be better with all those invented mechanics)
- some mechanics just missing like ground forces or crew management
- cities are to faceless (they have literally no difference)
- not so many hard-to-achieve easter eggs (and they're not influencing a storyline)

So for one dev this game is pretty good and perspective project. And it mustn't be compared to SS or treated like clone or something. It is self-sufficient enough on my opinion. And I wish dev to make a sequel and improve his game.
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Schwartz

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Re: Highfleet... ugh
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2022, 04:45:10 AM »

Art style is absolutely gorgeous, and that's really all I know about it. It's still on the list.
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