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Author Topic: A Tale of Two Tech Levels  (Read 35660 times)

Helldiver

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2021, 04:39:28 PM »

Apologies :( The "cool ship name" space is, sadly, somewhat crowded.

Why not name ship classes after elements in the game's lore? While a lot of video games fall into the trap of only giving generic "cool-sounding" English words as names for spaceships, real ship classes are usually named after iconic things - places, events, people of renown and so on.
Let's make use of Starsector's lore! For example, whatever "Hegemony"-style ship classes are added in the future could be named after things in the Domain's history, with a small explaination about the origin of the name in the ship class description.

Fixes the issue of limited name space and can be an organic way of adding/detailing lore in the game.
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writeru

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2021, 04:49:46 PM »

I wish the new damper shield stuff would also be equipped to the onslaught and the domknator. Or perhaps could be added as a hullmod

Maybe if the 14th battlegroup variant was the damper field one... this would be a more balanced approach.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 04:52:20 PM by writeru »
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Warnoise

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2021, 04:53:45 PM »

(Half-thinking of a low-tech destroyer build around a large slot - sort of a Sunder in that sense, but with some things that make it a different concept...)

Full-think it! Vanilla needs a couple more large ballistics imo and upgunned destroyer is a lot of fun for the player.

I'd love to try the damper-shields on a couple of low tech ships. It might be a bit much on an Onslaught like you said, but on a Dominator? That definitely might make the 25 DP seem more worth it! Very excited about the changes.

Enforcer XIV should have 1 Large 2 Medium and 2 small ballistic mounts imo
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Beinsezii

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2021, 05:02:58 PM »

Really liking the low tech changes. Every time I try a low-tech playthrough I end up adding some mid or high in there to balance it out.

If I might add some 2¢, given the low-tech's "decisive confrontation" idea, perhaps some sort of ballistics weapons that utilizes actual charges like the Autopulse. Currently the only time I've ever used Expanded Magazines is for my Autopulse Paragon and my antimatter harbinger.
It could even eject a little magazine on empty for extra visual flair.
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Alex

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2021, 05:11:27 PM »

Hm, could we make Shield Shunt replace the shield with Damper Field?* (It'd probably need Shield Shunt to be a more expensive hull mod, and it'd probably need to be a nerfed version of the Damper Field, but I think that'd make that hull mod a lot more viable without needing to rely on the current implementation of Derelict Contingent.)

* Edit: or install a damper field right-click on ships like the Hound that don't have a right-click system already.

I feel like this sort of thing is really, really difficult (or, rather, actually impossible) to balance. What system a ship has is such a big balance/gameplay factor for it, and being able to just swap it out for something else could range from "useless" to "incredibly overpowered" with no balance levers to turn to fine-tune it.

I mean, I love the idea of just being able to slap burn drive on something, or some such. But I can't really see it as anything other than a story based one-off or something along those lines.

And, well, you're not talking about swapping it out, but replacing shields with it, but I think the same general points apply.

I don't hate the concept of the Hound/Cerberus having it be a "primitive shield", though. But I think it'd also rule them out as useful, easy early game enemies for the player to face. Though if that were done with a hullmod, as you're suggesting... hmm. See, for the Hound and the Cerberus, that has potential. But what about for a ship that's designed to be a full-on combat ship without relying on a Damper Field special? I think this just enables really wild swings in power.


Flares are far too powerful for a D-tier ship like the Paragon.

Perhaps we can settle on the Gladius's single Decoy Flare, then :)


Full-think it! Vanilla needs a couple more large ballistics imo and upgunned destroyer is a lot of fun for the player.

Yeah... I mean, I already have a ship system in mind for it! So "half" is probably underselling it.


Oh thank Ludd! Don't scare me like that!

My actual apologies :) I really shouldn't joke like that, I mean, someone's bound to take it seriously.

Edit: IS it even possible to add a ship system as a Right Click System via a normal hullmod?

(I don't think it is right now, but, I mean, it *could* probably be done with some back-end work.)



Why not name ship classes after elements in the game's lore? While a lot of video games fall into the trap of only giving generic "cool-sounding" English words as names for spaceships, real ship classes are usually named after iconic things - places, events, people of renown and so on.
Let's make use of Starsector's lore! For example, whatever "Hegemony"-style ship classes are added in the future could be named after things in the Domain's history, with a small explaination about the origin of the name in the ship class description.

Fixes the issue of limited name space and can be an organic way of adding/detailing lore in the game.

Not necessarily a bad idea! But 1) it's nice when ship names sound cool in a vaccum, and 2) it's a bit late to start now and just pepper that sort of thign in.

Really liking the low tech changes. Every time I try a low-tech playthrough I end up adding some mid or high in there to balance it out.

If I might add some 2¢, given the low-tech's "decisive confrontation" idea, perhaps some sort of ballistics weapons that utilizes actual charges like the Autopulse. Currently the only time I've ever used Expanded Magazines is for my Autopulse Paragon and my antimatter harbinger.
It could even eject a little magazine on empty for extra visual flair.

Hmm, that could be interesting, yeah. The light and heavy needler already kind of do that, minus charges, though. I guess... by itself, this isn't enough to base a weapon on. I could see perhaps something like the Storm Needler using that approach, but it finally seems like it's in a pretty good place now, and I don't want to mess with it. Still, I get what you're saying, and will keep this in mind! (Equally, though, one might argue that charges/burst damage is good for the high tech "dart in and do damage, then back off" approach.)
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Burvjradzite

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2021, 05:47:12 PM »

Low tech heavy frigate, finally, a blessing from our lord. Everything suggests it just must be used while heavy d-modded to get bonuses from I4R. I hope it will have enough OP to make various builds even in the cost of increased DP. Tempest change looks interesting, i even fear it can be more powerful in some situations than it already is. And oh that grandfather of an aurora looks very promising for the low tech fleets, never before i was so scared of hegemony inspection as now.

CrashToDesktop

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2021, 05:52:10 PM »

I'm not sure how the tracking on the Tempest's suicide drones is, but it sounds like to me the Tempest just got an Antimatter SRM launcher strapped to it for free, since both deal the same damage for the same flux cost, and both have a 20-second reload. Compared to the AM SRM, Termination Sequence has 1 less ammo, gains 500 EMP damage, and your ammo fights back while it's not being used! Granted, it consumes a drone, but that can be well worth it as a strike weapon to crack armor and then chew up the squishy insides with regular weapons.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 05:56:09 PM by The Soldier »
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Retry

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2021, 05:57:28 PM »

I'm sorry but WHAT? Please PLEASE tell me that is a joke! Fortress shield is a MAJOR part of the Paragon's identity. And replacing it with flares seems like a double barrel "F*** YOU!!" to it and those that like it. The ships would have to be COMPLETELY changed in order for the system change to be even remotely worth it
Is joke
(Sorry ;D)
Oh thank Ludd! Don't scare me like that!

Edit: IS it even possible to add a ship system as a Right Click System via a normal hullmod?
It isn't afaik.  Tried to go from phase to shields for a week before figuring out (well, being told) that wasn't actually possible.  Unfortunate, 'cause I thought I found a way to get it to work in a way that was fun while not breaking the balance (well, more so than any given phase ship might already do)
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Low tech heavy frigate, finally, a blessing from our lord. Everything suggests it just must be used while heavy d-modded to get bonuses from I4R.
I4R is being taken through the shredder, haven't you heard?
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Beinsezii

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2021, 05:57:43 PM »

Really liking the low tech changes. Every time I try a low-tech playthrough I end up adding some mid or high in there to balance it out.

If I might add some 2¢, given the low-tech's "decisive confrontation" idea, perhaps some sort of ballistics weapons that utilizes actual charges like the Autopulse. Currently the only time I've ever used Expanded Magazines is for my Autopulse Paragon and my antimatter harbinger.
It could even eject a little magazine on empty for extra visual flair.

Hmm, that could be interesting, yeah. The light and heavy needler already kind of do that, minus charges, though. I guess... by itself, this isn't enough to base a weapon on. I could see perhaps something like the Storm Needler using that approach, but it finally seems like it's in a pretty good place now, and I don't want to mess with it. Still, I get what you're saying, and will keep this in mind! (Equally, though, one might argue that charges/burst damage is good for the high tech "dart in and do damage, then back off" approach.)
I was thinking some kind of heavy-duty scattergun (scattercannon?) that fires lots of rounds somewhat inaccurately for high damage and moderate flux. Think mortar to scatter-thing like autocannon to needler. Problem is it'd make sense for it to be a magazine in the true sense, where instead of adding 'charges' gradually, it has to reload the whole magazine at once. I don't think it'd be worthwhile to have a dedicated reload key for one weapon (or a very small handful in the future), so perhaps it could 'reload' after not firing for an amount of time. Thus Expanded Magazines would extend the amount before having to cease fire, but wouldn't affect the delay between bursts, and if you and re-engage after retreating/murdering you'll still start with a full magazine.

Could be fun adding a small element of thinking when to use what weapons other than just not overloading, like do you stop your HE scatter-nameinprogress early to reload sooner, allowing you to strike the *moment* they take their shields down, or use your remaining charges/bullets to attempt an overload?
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SteelSoldier

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2021, 06:02:24 PM »

 Burn Drive and Damper field are good solutions for certain low tech ships, I would like to see more abilities explored as well.
 
 I was thinking something in the lines of Armour Shrapnel the ship has additional plating in the front and the sides and it ejects them at very high speeds, could be a last resort to do additional damage against an enemy that is up close or destroy some pesky reapers/bombers before it is too late.

 

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Thaago

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2021, 06:03:10 PM »

I have to agree with others: the tempest change is a nerf I'm actually excited to play with, it sounds awesome.

Cancellable burn drive sounds great! I just know I'll burn drive forward and not cancel it quite in time and eat a reaper anyways. ;)

For the low tech frigate the right click damper field is interesting to say the least... I wonder if it could do effective ramming moves with burn drive + damper? Its a bit small, but I just know its something a lot of people are going to try.
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FooF

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2021, 06:07:30 PM »

If I may, because I sorta brought it up, I wasn't intending we just go swapping ship systems willy-nilly. I was specifically talking about Damper Field replacing shields on Low-Tech (and only Low-Tech) ships. Damper Field reminds me of some kind of precursor to proper shields: some mitigating force field that reduces shot velocity before it hits armor. When true shields were introduced, it kinda made the damper field obsolete (after all, you can fire through shields but damper fields shuts your offense down) but certain "traditionalists" (read: the "Low Tech School") balked at the possibility of overload and leaving your ship completely vulnerable and stuck with the old-school Dampers. Why put flux toward shields when they could all go to guns (I think this could explain Low Tech's generally poorer flux stats: it's all going to guns so you have balance off of that).

Where the tuning levers come in is defining the Damper Field strength of the individual ships, kind of like shield efficiency. If an Onslaught was too tough at 50% mitigation, you lower it somewhat to find the right balance. It gets "boring" to take down such ships, true, but there isn't a ship in the game that only has Damper Field and no shields. If you can't mitigate damage via shields, Damper Field ships might not be that hard to take down. But I digress.

Re: Expanded Magazines

I've always chuckled that the hull mod that was originally intended to boost Ballistics way back in the day now only boosts Energy weapons. Should be called "Expanded Charges!" I mean, not to bring it up for the 10th time but a Medium Assault Gun would be a great candidate for this. Since we can't balance such a weapon around traditional ranges and damage (because it'd make everything else obsolete), make it burst-y with ammo considerations and sustained fire that is inferior to the Heavy Mortar. Sure, it's strong, long-range, and accurate but it can't do so indefinitely. I think having a specialized gun that uses ammo like an even larger Hellbore or a pure EMP weapon could also work.

As far as the Paragon: you know what you must do... Missile Autoforge.
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SafariJohn

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2021, 06:12:38 PM »

Burn drive cancellation! Yes! Cue the M.Bison meme! Yes!


The Vanguard, I really wanted to make it 8, but I'm not sure it holds up as good value at that point. So right now it's 6, but I'm not 100% set on whether it'll stay there.

The Roider Union's shieldless super frigate compromises on this by being 6 DP and having High Maintenance. 12 su/mo is expensive early game while 6 DP makes it easier to deploy later on.
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Histidine

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2021, 06:18:45 PM »

It occurred to me that Tempest will be benefiting a fair bit more from fighter buffs now.

Eradicator is an uglified Fury, change my mind

Related to comparisons of Low Tech and High Tech: Alex, do you remember this thread?
I liked this proposal the most:
If a false sense of tiering is the main problem, the main offender is probably Low Tech. It draws the direct comparison with High Tech and looks like the inferior option. If it was called something else, High Tech would have nothing to be superior too, and appear more as a sidegrade, while still conveying its relative recency. Also, if modern day Earth is any comparison, people would be euphamizing the category as "classic" or "vintage" to sell more ships.
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nathanebht

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2021, 06:21:31 PM »

"The key thing is that high tech is not intended to be better than low tech, just a different way of doing things. High tech has speed, good shields, and fairly inefficient (but varied!) lower-ranged weapons. Low tech is slower and more ponderous, has high armor and hull integrity, with efficient longer-ranged weapons."

High tech has some of the best long range weapons. 1 small, 1 medium, 2 large energy weapons with 1000 range. So high tech gets to control the range against low tech ships and does not need to close to do damage. It just takes some time to burn through the armor.
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