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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24)

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Author Topic: Make [Story Spoilers] fights scale with the player's Battle Size setting!  (Read 1663 times)

Arcagnello

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How many of you reloaded the game and experimented with different setups when you fought the [Spoilers] fights for the first time? I'll be the first one to admit I did, and I soon found out you could reduce or increase the maximum battle size all you wanted, but the fights themselves did not change, hence the following suggestion that's also serving as this thread title. I'm going to use memes instead of actual ship names so you don't have to open hald a dozen Spoiler tags.

Dorito Gank Squad Fight:
After some testing I've more or less come to the conclusion you can reliably off a single Spooky Scary Bag with around 90DP worth of AI controlled ships (a single Shield Shunt, Derelict Contingent Radiant with 3 Integrated Hullmods and a fully Integrated Alpha core probably beats two by itself, but we don't talk about that), so I've concocted the following equation that really sucks because I don't have either a big enough brain or a degree in mathematics:

Number of Crumpled Bags=1+{[(Battle Size/2)/120]*1.2}

You'll fight an additional Bag Full Of Fun whenever the equation fully reaches the next number. I would personally give the existing Bag(s) buffs based on the remaining "score" of the equation (say that for every 0.99 all Tesseracts get a 99% Flux Capacity and 99% Flux Dissipation bonus which gets equally split between the Doritos if there's multiple already on the field)

Addendum
Harpoon Affectionado, Thaago had some legitimate doubts about my math skills (I'll agree they're not great at all) so I wrote some examples below, let me know if the calculus checks out!

Quote
I think the above formula probably doesn't really do what you want for the omegas? As stated it gives 2 enemies from 200-399 DP battle size, which IIRC is every battle size except the max of 400 (don't have the game open in front of me). So its really just an extra enemy surprise for players that exactly max the battle size, and no change for anyone else.

The equation simplifies to 1 + BattleSize/200, rounded down...

Hm... Wait let me calculate some more examples to test this!

Dorito Gank Squad formula: Number of Crumpled Bags=1+{[(Battle Size/2)/120]*1.2}

200 Battle Size (minimum vanilla setting)
1+{[(200/2)/120]*1.2}
=2 which translates into 2 Doritos with no buffs

300 Battle Size (stock vanilla value)
1+{[(300/2)/120]*1.2}[/b]=2.5 which translates into 2 Doritos with +25% extra flux capacity and 25% extra flux dissipation each (since the 0.5 translates into a total of +50% base flux stats, evenly distributed)

400 Battle Size (maximum vanilla value)
1+{[(400/2)/120]*1.2}[/b]=3 which translates into 3 Doritos with no buffs

700 Battle Size (obtainable through settings file editing)
1+{[(700/2)/120]*1.2}[/b]=4.5 which translates into 4 Doritos with +12,5% extra flux capacity and 12,5% extra flux dissipation each (since the 0.5 translates into a total of +50% base flux stats, evenly distributed)

1000 Battle Size (obtainable through settings file editing)
1+{[(1000/2)/120]*1.2}[/b]=6 which translates into 6 Doritos with no buffs

Now you're making me wonder if I wrote the OP wrong or something  :P I'll add this to the OP as an addendum!

Ludd's Angry Broccoli Fight
This is a bit trickier IMO, since you'd only ever fight one of these (unless Alex has played Darkest Dungeon recently) so we've got to modify the equation a bit to only make it apply the same bonus as above and not add additional units:


Buff Multiplier={[(Battle Size/2)/120]*1.2}-1

This is the same buff as above that improves flux capacity and flux dissipation by 100% every 1.0 in value.

Thoughts? I could very well imagine the additional 1.2 multiplier being reduced or outright removed, but I'm strongly under the opinion that fights get easier and easier the bigger the Maximum Deployment size increases on the player's size, so I would at least keep it to 1.1.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 02:50:14 PM by Arcagnello »
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AcaMetis

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How would you communicate this to the player in a way that doesn't throw a Gryphon worth of Reapers at the fourth wall? Why would this mechanic only exist and apply to these two fights, which logically need it the least? And how do you justify that it only applies to these two fights in terms of lore? "Highly experimental/Domain-era shenaniganry" I suppose, but for a boost based on game settings even that's kinda...questionable.
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Arcagnello

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How would you communicate this to the player in a way that doesn't throw a Gryphon worth of Reapers at the fourth wall? Why would this mechanic only exist and apply to these two fights, which logically need it the least? And how do you justify that it only applies to these two fights in terms of lore? "Highly experimental/Domain-era shenaniganry" I suppose, but for a boost based on game settings even that's kinda...questionable.

I would't. Let people suffer at the hands of their own hubris for breaking game balance and going over 240DP.
It would also serve as future insight for players that want more loot the second time (Ludd's angry broccoli could have a higher chance to drop [Spoilers] the more buffed it is)
I'm curious about how these two fights need scaling the least given they're among the only fights that don't scale at all in the game.

More enemies, more loot.

Blood For The Blood God! More Khorne For The KhorneFlakes!
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Thaago

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I think the above formula probably doesn't really do what you want for the omegas? As stated it gives 2 enemies from 200-399 DP battle size, which IIRC is every battle size except the max of 400 (don't have the game open in front of me). So its really just an extra enemy surprise for players that exactly max the battle size, and no change for anyone else.

The equation simplifies to 1 + BattleSize/200, rounded down...
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Sutopia

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Add a new fighter wing “punisher “ that spawns from debris when player has battle size over 300. (Each per spawn per 100 size should be a good place)
Punisher will be like hyperion of the fighter that post significant ability for its size. To prevent loot bloat, simply make all weapons built in.
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AcaMetis

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I would't. Let people suffer at the hands of their own hubris for breaking game balance and going over 240DP.
It would also serve as future insight for players that want more loot the second time (Ludd's angry broccoli could have a higher chance to drop [Spoilers] the more buffed it is)
I'm curious about how these two fights need scaling the least given they're among the only fights that don't scale at all in the game.
That just sounds like an invitation to get a lot of confused player posting false bug reports because the game has an unmentioned mechanic based on a setting in the game's options that no other fights have. And how would that serve as "insight" when it's a mechanic that the game never explains? Insight to go online and see what the game isn't telling you? I don't think Ludd's Disappointment drops any spoiler weapons by default anyway, the only reward for fighting it is the chance to recover the ship itself. As disappointing a reward as it is.

They don't need scaling because they can just be scaled to a midgame (Ludd's Disappointment)/endgame (dorito gank squad) fleet with the default DP settings the vanilla game allows for. Now if I were to go into Settings.json and change things until I could deploy thirty Paragons at once, sure, that'd be cheating, but I don't see how staying within the game's rules could be considered an exploit.

Add a new fighter wing “punisher “ that spawns from debris when player has battle size over 300. (Each per spawn per 100 size should be a good place)
Punisher will be like hyperion of the fighter that post significant ability for its size. To prevent loot bloat, simply make all weapons built in.
Why not just cause the player's ships to explode upon entering battle if you deploy more than X DP, until you're below that same number? Or just cap battlesize to 300 by default and force players to go into settings.json to change it, at which point you could feasibly call increasing it beyond it's baseline cap an exploit?
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I would't. Let people suffer at the hands of their own hubris for breaking game balance and going over 240DP.

I'm getting WH40K suspicions from this

Blood For The Blood God! More Khorne For The KhorneFlakes!

My suspicions were confirmed, the only circumstance in which you hear the word "hubris" after all.

In all due honesty all kinds of bullshittery could be pulled with these guys, after all making them infinite would be a good way to get endgame meme fleets just for the lols.
Once they become a part of the story that goes away but meanwhile its just good fun with the magical looking shooties.

I have a better idea, you have to recite the myth of Ludd's life and death, and every time you make a mistake another dorito bag spawns, all while fighting them.
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Arcagnello

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I think the above formula probably doesn't really do what you want for the omegas? As stated it gives 2 enemies from 200-399 DP battle size, which IIRC is every battle size except the max of 400 (don't have the game open in front of me). So its really just an extra enemy surprise for players that exactly max the battle size, and no change for anyone else.

The equation simplifies to 1 + BattleSize/200, rounded down...

Hm... Wait let me calculate some more examples to test this!

Dorito Gank Squad formula: Number of Crumpled Bags=1+{[(Battle Size/2)/120]*1.2}

200 Battle Size (minimum vanilla setting)
1+{[(200/2)/120]*1.2}
=2 which translates into 2 Doritos with no buffs

300 Battle Size (stock vanilla value)
1+{[(300/2)/120]*1.2}[/b]=2.5 which translates into 2 Doritos with +25% extra flux capacity and 25% extra flux dissipation each (since the 0.5 translates into a total of +50% base flux stats, evenly distributed)

400 Battle Size (maximum vanilla value)
1+{[(400/2)/120]*1.2}[/b]=3 which translates into 3 Doritos with no buffs

700 Battle Size (obtainable through settings file editing)
1+{[(700/2)/120]*1.2}[/b]=4.5 which translates into 4 Doritos with +12,5% extra flux capacity and 12,5% extra flux dissipation each (since the 0.5 translates into a total of +50% base flux stats, evenly distributed)

1000 Battle Size (obtainable through settings file editing)
1+{[(1000/2)/120]*1.2}[/b]=6 which translates into 6 Doritos with no buffs

Now you're making me wonder if I wrote the OP wrong or something  :P I'll add this to the OP as an addendum!

Add a new fighter wing “punisher “ that spawns from debris when player has battle size over 300. (Each per spawn per 100 size should be a good place)
Punisher will be like hyperion of the fighter that post significant ability for its size. To prevent loot bloat, simply make all weapons built in.

No, no, there is no need for new ships. Just have a Luddic Path Holy Armada solely made up of Officered Colossus MK.IIs with the Ill-Advised Modifications removed and Integrated Hardened subsystems and Expanded Missile Racks  ;D

I would't. Let people suffer at the hands of their own hubris for breaking game balance and going over 240DP.
It would also serve as future insight for players that want more loot the second time (Ludd's angry broccoli could have a higher chance to drop [Spoilers] the more buffed it is)
I'm curious about how these two fights need scaling the least given they're among the only fights that don't scale at all in the game.
That just sounds like an invitation to get a lot of confused player posting false bug reports because the game has an unmentioned mechanic based on a setting in the game's options that no other fights have. And how would that serve as "insight" when it's a mechanic that the game never explains? Insight to go online and see what the game isn't telling you? I don't think Ludd's Disappointment drops any spoiler weapons by default anyway, the only reward for fighting it is the chance to recover the ship itself. As disappointing a reward as it is.

They don't need scaling because they can just be scaled to a midgame (Ludd's Disappointment)/endgame (dorito gank squad) fleet with the default DP settings the vanilla game allows for. Now if I were to go into Settings.json and change things until I could deploy thirty Paragons at once, sure, that'd be cheating, but I don't see how staying within the game's rules could be considered an exploit.

You could simply add a single phrase in highlighted text on either pre-battle description, I hope you'll forgive how straightforward and uninspired the following text is but it should get the message across nonetheless:

Dorito Fight when your battle size setting is over 400
Spoiler
[...] As you approach the megastructure, multiple sections break off and rapily approach your fleet. It seems the Hypershunt Tap does not underestimate your fleet and is taking additional measures to not have its forces overwhelmed
[close]

Angry Broccoli Fight when your battle size setting is over 400
Spoiler
[...]as the unidentified phase vessel approaches your fleet, multiple motes are detected near Alpha Site and join the entourage of the mysterious entity.
[close]


Moving on
, yes I know Ludd's Disappointment does not drop anything but the chance to get a nerfed version of it for yourself, but the formula buffing it would give you an increased chance of getting any of its weapons in the after-battle in a salvage screen or something, that gets higher the more buffed the Broccoli is.

Currently, I rank Ludd's Disappointment below a single Remnant Ordo (with just one radiant) in difficulty. The Dorito Gank Squad sits between one and two Ordos. This formula would at least make it scale a tad better but let's be honest, there's people that beat the Broccoli with a single Harbinger and the Doritos with the Broccoli.

I would't. Let people suffer at the hands of their own hubris for breaking game balance and going over 240DP.

I'm getting WH40K suspicions from this

Blood For The Blood God! More Khorne For The KhorneFlakes!

My suspicions were confirmed, the only circumstance in which you hear the word "hubris" after all.

In all due honesty all kinds of bullshittery could be pulled with these guys, after all making them infinite would be a good way to get endgame meme fleets just for the lols.
Once they become a part of the story that goes away but meanwhile its just good fun with the magical looking shooties.

I have a better idea, you have to recite the myth of Ludd's life and death, and every time you make a mistake another dorito bag spawns, all while fighting them.

I'll keep that into consideration, thanks  8)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 11:40:15 AM by Arcagnello »
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Currently, I rank Ludd's Disappointment below a single Remnant Ordo (with just one radiant) in difficulty. The Dorito Gank Squad sits between one and two Ordos. This formula would at least make it scale a tad better but let's be honest, there's people that beat the Broccoli with a single Harbinger and the Doritos with the Broccoli.

Harbinger Butt Reapers don't play around son! Any ship in the game can be done in that way if it's alone, that's why as powerful as these ships are, they don't present so much of a challenge to the lone ship phase hunters. The Guardian is the most extreme example, because it's tremendously powerful stat wise (infinite missiles and speed considered) but since it's alone and has an exposed behind (giggity) you can smoke it with a handful of Omens with AM blasters and little else.
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Thaago

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You know, I completely missed the part about buffing the flux somehow. My bad, sorry about that! I could have sworn I read it all but apparently not.
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Arcagnello

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You know, I completely missed the part about buffing the flux somehow. My bad, sorry about that! I could have sworn I read it all but apparently not.

No worries! I fully expect the majority of my comments in mod threads to ask questions that are already answered in the Original Post and that I have to edit out later  ::)

Currently, I rank Ludd's Disappointment below a single Remnant Ordo (with just one radiant) in difficulty. The Dorito Gank Squad sits between one and two Ordos. This formula would at least make it scale a tad better but let's be honest, there's people that beat the Broccoli with a single Harbinger and the Doritos with the Broccoli.

Harbinger Butt Reapers don't play around son! Any ship in the game can be done in that way if it's alone, that's why as powerful as these ships are, they don't present so much of a challenge to the lone ship phase hunters. The Guardian is the most extreme example, because it's tremendously powerful stat wise (infinite missiles and speed considered) but since it's alone and has an exposed behind (giggity) you can smoke it with a handful of Omens with AM blasters and little else.

In the first age, in the first battle, when the Sector first expanded, one stood. Burned by the embers of Mammon, his soul blistered by the fires of Moloch and tainted beyond ascension, he chose the path of perpetual torment. In his ravenous hatred he found no peace; and with boiling Reaper Torpedoes he scoured the Persean Sector seeking vengeance against the Phase Ships who had wronged him. He wore the crown of the Tryhards, and those that tasted the bite of his backside torpedoes named him... the Butt Harbinger. Tempered by the fires of self-damage, his iron hull remained steadfast through the passage that preys upon the weak. For he alone was the Meme Walker, the Phase Predator, who sought retribution in all quarters, in systems and in hyperspace, in star coronas and in nebulas, in the beginning and the end, and he hunted the slaves of Flux Capacity with barbarous cruelty; for he passed through the divide as none but other phase ships had before. And in his conquest against the blackened souls of the doomed, his prowess was shown. In his crusade, Ludd bestowed upon him terrible power and speed, and with his might he crushed the obsidian pillars of the Remnant Ordos. He set forth without pity upon the ships of the nine factions. Unbreakable, incorruptible, unyielding, the Butt Harbinger sought to end the dominion of the Phase Weebs. The age of his reckoning was uncounted. The scribes carved his name deep in the tablets of the Persean Sector across eons, and each battle etched terror in the hearts of the enemy fleets. They knew he would come, as he always had, as he always will, to feast on the supplies of the wicked. For he alone could draw strength from his fallen foes, and ever his power grew, swift and unrelenting. None could stand before the horde but the Butt Harbinger. Despair spread before him like a plague, striking fear into the Phase-dwellers, driving them to deeper and darker pits. But from the depths of the abyss rose The Great Broccoli, a champion mightier than all who had come before. The Titanicus Broccoli, of immeasurable power and ferocity. He strode upon the Sector and faced the Butt Harbinger, and a mighty battle was fought on the Alpha Site. The Titan fought with the fury of the countless that had fallen at the Butt Harbinger's rear end, but there fell the Broccoli, and in his defeat the Phase Horde was routed. And in his terrible rancor between worlds and through time, the Meme Walker found the wretch who shall not be named, but in his heresy was loyal to his evil cause. The wretch adorned the Butt Harbinger in Integrated Heavy Armor, wrought in the forges of Chitomonzoc, impenetrable and unyielding. With Flux Coil Adjunct and resistant Flux Conduits of adamantine strength, the Butt Harbinger set to banishing all that were left unbroken by his savagery to the void. Yet as the mighty Broccoli fell and dread engulfed the armies of the Phase Weebs, the Tri-tachyon priests of Echou Bres laid a trap to capture this scourge of Phasers. Insatiable, even by the vanquishing of the Great Broccoli, the Meme Walker sought prey in the tombs of the Red Planet. And blinded by his fervor, the lure drew him in. The priests brought down the temple upon the Butt Harbinger, and in his defeat entombed him in the cursed hangar bay. The mark of the Doom Slayer was burned upon his crypt, a warning to all of the Persean Sector that the terror within must never be freed. There he lies still, and ever more, in silent suffering from 0% Combat Readiness.

This is lore now. I fully expect a Harbinger with butt-mounted Reaper Torpedoes, 5 Integrated Hullmods and a Level 14 Reckless Officer fully integrated into it after we do that quest.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 03:18:32 PM by Arcagnello »
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AcaMetis

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Quote
You could simply add a single phrase in highlighted text on either pre-battle description, I hope you'll forgive how straightforward and uninspired the following text is but it should get the message across nonetheless:
There's nothing that tells the player this is referring to exceeding the vanilla DP deployment cap in the settings, though, and there's no other part of the game that suggests as much since no other part of the game does anything like it. Does it trigger because the player fields X capital ships? Do the doritos fear Ludd's Disappointment? Are you not allowed to exceed the DP value of your enemies since that's usually used as a rough power estimate (not that you can see the DP values of the dorito bags ingame in the first place, of course)? There's a lot more (ingame) reasons why either Ludd's Disappointment or the dorito gank squad would pull reinforcements that a player would naturally guess first.

Beyond that I don't see a need to add a special mechanic to two specific fights in case a player changes a single setting in settings.json in the first place. If it's really that important to ensure the player can't change a game setting to cheese a pair of fights that don't have a reason to exist beyond being hard fights just set a hard cap on DP in those fights because *insert generic highly experimental/Domain-era shenaniganry ingame excuse here*, and tell the player
Quote
Bla bla bla descriptive texts bla bla bla

Your ability to deploy ships in battle is limited because of *generic highly experimental/Domain-era shenaniganry ingame excuse here*. You'll only be able to have XYZ DP worth of ships deployed.
Something along those lines. No unique, unexplained and unintuitive mechanic because of meta-game reasons, just a clearly spelled out limitation that I hope a player who's gotten as far as Ludd's Disappointment or the dorito gank squad understands based on a basic game mechanic.

Quote
Moving on, yes I know Ludd's Disappointment does not drop anything but the chance to get a nerfed version of it for yourself, but the formula buffing it would give you an increased chance of getting any of its weapons in the after-battle in a salvage screen or something, that gets higher the more buffed the Broccoli is.
Getting more vanilla guns off of Ludd's Disappointment would be even more of a non-reward than the trophy guns from fighting the dorito gank squad, though. Honestly I'm not sure why you'd fight Ludd's Disappointment in the first place, buffed or not it's just not worth the effort. Well, unless you're looking for a fight, but than the fight is it's own reward.
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This is lore now. I fully expect a Harbinger with butt-mounted Reaper Torpedoes, 5 Integrated Hullmods and a Level 14 Reckless Officer fully integrated into it after we do that quest.

Gotta commend your borderline unhealthy commitment to jokes my lad  ;D
But yeah, if this isn't made canon, *** gonna burn down and whatnot.

The real mystery is why did the Butt Harbinger see the light and payed for his kind's sins, truly Ludd works in incomprehensible ways, we can but fervently follow the path brethren!
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Arcagnello

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There's nothing that tells the player this is referring to exceeding the vanilla DP deployment cap in the settings, though, and there's no other part of the game that suggests as much since no other part of the game does anything like it. Does it trigger because the player fields X capital ships? Do the doritos fear Ludd's Disappointment? Are you not allowed to exceed the DP value of your enemies since that's usually used as a rough power estimate (not that you can see the DP values of the dorito bags ingame in the first place, of course)? There's a lot more (ingame) reasons why either Ludd's Disappointment or the dorito gank squad would pull reinforcements that a player would naturally guess first.

Well, that's more of a problem regarding Starsector not putting kind reminders anywhere and playing too much like a sandbox for its own, sory-related good. At least giving the abrstract concept of why 1000 Battle Size is not such a great idea to enable thru the settings due to game balance.

It could be something as easy as writing a couple of sentences in the middle left part of the screen as you start a new gaming session "Maximum Battle size exceeded (*current battle size written here*), consider lowering it to at least 400 for a balanced, story related experience". It could be a start.


Quote
Beyond that I don't see a need to add a special mechanic to two specific fights in case a player changes a single setting in settings.json in the first place. If it's really that important to ensure the player can't change a game setting to cheese a pair of fights that don't have a reason to exist beyond being hard fights just set a hard cap on DP in those fights because *insert generic highly experimental/Domain-era shenaniganry ingame excuse here*, and tell the player

Quote
Bla bla bla descriptive texts bla bla bla
Your ability to deploy ships in battle is limited because of *generic highly experimental/Domain-era shenaniganry ingame excuse here*. You'll only be able to have XYZ DP worth of ships deployed.
Something along those lines. No unique, unexplained and unintuitive mechanic because of meta-game reasons, just a clearly spelled out limitation that I hope a player who's gotten as far as Ludd's Disappointment or the dorito gank squad understands based on a basic game mechanic.

I guess, I personally don't believe anyone going over 400 Battle Size even pursues anything remotely challenging in Starsector, just pwetthy spaceh bottlelsh wee woo blam blam pew pew swoosh swoosh.

Then again, is fighting 6 Doritos if you got 600 Deployment Points (60% of a 1000 Battle Size Battle, considering all story battles give you 60% AFAIK) avaiable to you really that hard? I honestly find that poulty 1.2 modifier could even be bumped up to 1.3-1.4 and it would still be more than fine.

Quote
Getting more vanilla guns off of Ludd's Disappointment would be even more of a non-reward than the trophy guns from fighting the dorito gank squad, though. Honestly I'm not sure why you'd fight Ludd's Disappointment in the first place, buffed or not it's just not worth the effort. Well, unless you're looking for a fight, but than the fight is it's own reward.

I was under the impression that Ludd's Broccoli used [Hyper-Redacted] weapons on some mounts, but I guess not. That's why I suggested a chance to drop those as reward for it being buffed the higher Battle Size gets.

Huh, I guess that'd be another venue to buff it right? Can you imagine The Great Broccoli with Cryoblasters and the like?  >:(

This is lore now. I fully expect a Harbinger with butt-mounted Reaper Torpedoes, 5 Integrated Hullmods and a Level 14 Reckless Officer fully integrated into it after we do that quest.

Gotta commend your borderline unhealthy commitment to jokes my lad  ;D
But yeah, if this isn't made canon, *** gonna burn down and whatnot.

The real mystery is why did the Butt Harbinger see the light and payed for his kind's sins, truly Ludd works in incomprehensible ways, we can but fervently follow the path brethren!

Oh come on now it did not take that long, I just wrote "Doom Slayer Speech text", found the full narration, copypasted it here and then spent some 10 minutes making it lore accurate!

Then again, I was listening to the Vega Core OST hyping me up. You've got Mick Gordon to blame for the spam this time, not me  :P

« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 03:21:23 PM by Arcagnello »
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