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Author Topic: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?  (Read 6157 times)

Thaago

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2021, 09:47:16 AM »

Pather attacks are rare. You lose more money by not using the item than by accepting occasional attacks. Its not worth worrying or considering pather interest when building colonies IMO. Its just sometimes a money booster to go pop their base.

For defense against core: I've found star fortresses + patrols to be sufficient so far, especially as its now possible to boost defenses very high with a bit of item luck and doing the red planet quest. Even if the enemies destroy the orbital station, it will regrow, and their bombardments never succeed. A military base in system does make things safer and stability higher by protecting the comm relay, but I've found that to be a luxury rather than a necessity. So... I don't really think improved military or bombing core worlds are needed to keep colonies safe, once a colony is up and large enough to have full defenses.

Stability is a fair concern, especially as how drastically commerce boosts income (especially with an item). Keeping stability high is a priority, and sometime comm relay + ground defenses + orbital fortress isn't enough. I haven't needed to use any story points to keep my colonies at 10 stability except when under the 3rd level pirate raid, but I could see if I had decivilized and maybe a popped starbase and resource convoys destroyed from an expedition that it would dip down to 5, which is not ideal.

As an example, I have a good colony in my current save very close to the core: size 5, 125% hazard, +0 organics +2 ore +1 rare ore, mining, commerce with an item and improved, spaceport with an item, refining, defenses at several thousand, and a 1 skill industry admin. It makes about 200k/month, with 2 story points invested, and sits at 10 stability with 2 in reserve. This isn't an optimal colony: only 2 items, using an admin instead of an alpha core, no cores on industries, no items on 2 of its industries. Its accessibility is high thanks to being very close, which is nice. But its still a single world making me 200k per month, which is plenty profitable without needing to put more points in. More points would be more money, but I don't need more money, so I can spend my points on other things.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2021, 09:50:35 AM »

I thought stability beyond 5 had no effect on income now? My colonies were on 8-9 stability pretty regularly but still made absurd amounts of money.
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Megas

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2021, 10:10:10 AM »

I thought stability beyond 5 had no effect on income now? My colonies were on 8-9 stability pretty regularly but still made absurd amounts of money.
I wanted stability for colony defense, that is fleet size and (especially) ship quality.  Also, it is nice to have extra in case stability tanks temporarily from other events like shortages or pirate activity.

Early on, my Heavy Industry was on a habitable, so no forge at first.  I wanted maximum stability so that the ships I built were not riddled with d-mods.  Eventually, after settling on final location, I built a second heavy industry on a frozen rock then swiped pristine nanoforge from Kazeron to crank quality up (and weaken League expeditions at the same time since their ships will be riddled with d-mods).

Without a forge, the highest quality player can get is 95%, and that requires 10 stability.

@ Thaago:  My colony location options were not great.  I had acceptable location with sub-optimal conditions, but somewhat near core and within 10 ly of a shunt, or another with good resources, domain relays, and a gate, but only two planets, no other systems with good planets nearby, and almost far enough away for an isolation penalty.  I had decision paralysis all the way to endgame, and I froze colony growth on one of my worlds so I could abandon it later until I decided my final colony location.  Eventually, I unfroze it and kept the location because I did not want to wait much longer before I finish playing.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 10:17:08 AM by Megas »
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Thaago

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2021, 03:38:47 PM »

Mmm, that sounds like an unlucky seed, that does suck. I haven't actually used the hypershunt yet because my colonies were not proximate, but I did have a cryosleeper about 8 LY away which was very nice.
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Ad Astra

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2021, 04:43:56 PM »

I went around in dev mode looking for interesting seeds, got one in vanilla with decent systems with both coronal tap and cryosleeper influence in a corner of the map, one system had a lone terran 50% hazard world with rich farmland and abundant organics. (there's also a terran world 100% hazard with every resource except ruins a few light years away from core, good for a starting base)

Playing with Nex (sector generation gets affected for some reason) I found a system not too far from core, with an arid world with solar shades (3 farming total and 75% hazard) with several barren worlds and an in system cryosleeper (that means full growth bonus). It also has coronal tap influence.

If you want I can give you either seed and you can find the systems on your own if you don't want the exploration ruined.
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You can park your spaceship anywhere you want if you get along with pirates

Goumindong

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2021, 06:27:27 PM »

The thing is, they already don't work like "do cool things" points, they work like currency that is acquired in a different way than the other one. Doing cool things should be provided by opportunities within the world, not through an opportunity cost dynamic with "magical currency". As such, finding a derelict with built in improvements feels cooler than to put some mods in yourself, just like finding XIV Legions has always been a nice thing even if you don't really use them. Adding to it, judging by the "notable ship" system on the Ziggurat, we could assume that more unique ships will be available in the future, committing these ships to a specific build through the entire playthrough would probably be considered unrewardingly limiting by most, and won't allow for testing of many builds without needing to reload (mainly because the simulator is too different from actual fleets with officers).
I can think of one good reason for more max OP instead of built-in hullmods - Ziggurat!

I am so tempted to integrate Augmented Engines on Ziggurat, but if I do that, it cannot be undone, and if I need a Ziggurat without Augmented Engines for maximum combat power, my option at that point is either find an earlier save or start a new game if I deleted the save.

Same can be said about Legion14, although there is usually more than one, and carriers kind of stink now.

This applies to all ships that are rare really. It’s still hard to find an Odyssey and I would not feel good applying Perm hull ore I might want to remove.

Another good reason is that the system of “put in the most expensive mod you’re going to always use” enforces a diminishing returns on applying storypoints in most situations. You only get so powerful so fast.
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Megas

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2021, 06:36:26 AM »

This applies to all ships that are rare really. It’s still hard to find an Odyssey and I would not feel good applying Perm hull ore I might want to remove.

Another good reason is that the system of “put in the most expensive mod you’re going to always use” enforces a diminishing returns on applying storypoints in most situations. You only get so powerful so fast.
The only ship that is really rare is the Ziggurat (only one in the game).  Every other ship can either be built or farmed.  Admittedly, unlimited ship availability is a late-game thing.

Of course, even if ships are not rare, it would be more convenient if story points added more max OP.  No more decision paralysis, no more waiting until the best hullmods drop, no more gripes about high-cost hullmods being overpowered for saving so much OP when integrated.
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AcaMetis

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2021, 06:49:57 AM »

Of course, even if ships are not rare, it would be more convenient if story points added more max OP.  No more decision paralysis, no more waiting until the best hullmods drop, no more gripes about high-cost hullmods being overpowered for saving so much OP when integrated.
Convenient, but terminally boring in practice I would think. No more anything except "OP bonus #1 -> OP bonus #2 -> OP bonus #3 (assuming Special Modifications)" for any and all s-modded ships. Honestly I'm not sure how putting EMR/HA/HS on 90% of your ships is less interesting. At least there's some choices to be made there, especially with logistics ships.
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Megas

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2021, 10:47:39 AM »

I fail to see how more max OP is more boring than picking the most expensive mods when available.  The end result is OP saved.  More max OP is probably more user friendly (although it may not save as much as the likes of Heavy Armor or Augmented Drive Field).
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AcaMetis

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2021, 11:13:49 AM »

For combat ships it makes spending SP to improve ships the exact same for every ship in the game, and without any sort of consequence. Well, obviously the bonus would be scaled, but in principle it's the same thing every time. Burn SP -> get OP -> spend OP as you wish when you wish. With s-mods there's at least the question of whether you want to wait until you have better hullmods before you lock in something else, whether you really want to lock in ADF or whether you're going to be running a line of Oxen later, whether you're going to go with a missile build or s-mod in something else, etc. It's not much, I'll admit, but it's something.

For logistics ships the mechanic of SP increasing OP does literally nothing for most of them, it might as well not exist. My tin foil Atlas with it's three small ballistics turrets has 20 more OP! It can pretend to have a purpose in combat for about .2 seconds longer before it gets utterly obliterated by anything more threatening than a Buffalo MK. II! Yeah, not impressive. With s-mods there's at least the question of whether to invest SP into your logistics ships to skip brining more ships, and whether to invest even more s-mods so you can put on some luxury stuff on top of that. Without s-mods that option isn't there, you just bring more ships and you're done.
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Megas

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2021, 11:21:39 AM »

Quote
For combat ships it makes spending SP to improve ships the exact same for every ship in the game, and without any sort of consequence. Well, obviously the bonus would be scaled, but in principle it's the same thing every time. Burn SP -> get OP -> spend OP as you wish when you wish. With s-mods there's at least the question of whether you want to wait until you have better hullmods before you lock in something else, whether you really want to lock in ADF or whether you're going to be running a line of Oxen later, whether you're going to go with a missile build or s-mod in something else, etc. It's not much, I'll admit, but it's something.
"same thing every time" is reliable, which is good.

Waiting until I have better hullmods (early in the game) is annoying.  For me, it means I sit on those story points until I get those hullmods - not fun!  I do not like that kind of drama.  Worst case, decision paralysis, which is... frustrating.
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AcaMetis

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2021, 11:40:03 AM »

"same thing every time" is reliable, which is good.

Waiting until I have better hullmods (early in the game) is annoying.  For me, it means I sit on those story points until I get those hullmods - not fun!  I do not like that kind of drama.  Worst case, decision paralysis, which is... frustrating.
Maybe the whole mechanic of having to "find" certain hullmod schematics is in need of an overhaul...or an axe. It don't really know what purpose it's supposed to serve, to be honest. Most hullmods I tend to find early enough anyway, DTC as an early stand-in for ITU has never been relevant, starting a new game with ships that have "unknown" hullmods installed is obnoxious, I've no idea why certain hullmods start out unlocked while others don't, getting base hullmod schematics from fights sometimes is just weird...I'unno.

I'd still prefer build-in s-mods just to not make logistics ships as aggressively dull as physically possible, if nothing else, but maybe something could be done to make the combat ship side of things less of a waiting game.
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