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Author Topic: Complaints about CR and game design  (Read 10900 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Complaints about CR and game design
« Reply #60 on: April 03, 2021, 08:27:20 AM »

I was thinking it might be cool if there were in-battle objectives that increased all ships PPT when you captured them. That could give ships some extra staying power.
Does it need to be a separate objective type? Maybe just slow down PPT/CR loss proportional to percentage of objectives held. Halved when controlling all 4 objectives.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Complaints about CR and game design
« Reply #61 on: April 03, 2021, 08:44:43 AM »

I was thinking it might be cool if there were in-battle objectives that increased all ships PPT when you captured them. That could give ships some extra staying power.
Does it need to be a separate objective type? Maybe just slow down PPT/CR loss proportional to percentage of objectives held. Halved when controlling all 4 objectives.
That works too. I just like the idea of an active in-combat way to interact with PPT/CR. You would have to see if it is too strong with SO/phase ships though. It's kinda susceptible to balance issues since the ships that are most reliant on PPT for balance are also the ships most able to capture objectives.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 08:46:23 AM by intrinsic_parity »
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TaLaR

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Re: Complaints about CR and game design
« Reply #62 on: April 03, 2021, 08:55:47 AM »

That works too. I just like the idea of an active in-combat way to interact with PPT/CR. You would have to see if it is too strong with SO/phase ships though. It's kinda susceptible to balance issues since the ships that are most reliant on PPT for balance are also the ships most able to capture objectives.

True, this might make phase/SO too good. Then again, at least player-piloted phase is already OP.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Complaints about CR and game design
« Reply #63 on: April 03, 2021, 09:01:29 AM »

I would like to see phase ships and SO balanced in ways other than PPT though, so I still like this idea.
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Sordid

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Re: Complaints about CR and game design
« Reply #64 on: April 03, 2021, 09:40:54 AM »

Can you give some in game examples of what you want to do and how you've actually been limited in a real game run?  With numbers?  Like, after 2 months, I was forced to turn around my fleet of X,Y,Z due to lack of supplies?

No, of course I can't. I don't keep those kinds of records.

The concern about Combat Readiness, amusing that what this topic is about, I have is that it makes it currently hard to use frigates in long battles that do involve larger ship types.

I get not wanting to play ring around the roses for 40 minutes with an enemy phase skimmer because you DARED not to bring a carrier, or have lost it in the actual battle. But when there is still a proper battle to be fought I can't see a good justification as to why my tempests shouldn't be operating for as long as my onslaughts. I do like the idea of the crews getting tired and everything getting run down over an extended battle however.

I would be nice to almost have a way for larger ships to prop up smaller ones as long as they exist to keep them going during a battle. Like a buff to their CR time when a larger ship type is present that counts down before their own timer. That way mixed size fleets, combined arms if you will, become a little better then 90% of an AI's fleet going limp after a while among the perfectly fine battleships.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about when I say there's no way to avoid the punishments that CR imposes. The game pushes you to bring the minimum force necessary, but if you do, the battle drags on and your ships start running out of CR. Not just frigates, I've had this problem even with destroyers. It just feels like crap when you've been fighting an exciting battle for a while, balancing on a knife's edge, and then the game goes, "A'ight, that's enough fun for now, time to lose." Like... no, I was going to win that, but you yanked the rug from under my feet, game!

I agree that being kited by the AI is about the most unfun thing that can happen in a game, but surely that would be better solved by just making the AI not kite the player? The dev can do that. That's fully within his power. IIRC, cowardly AI only started being a problem in version 0.8.

That's actually a great idea. Just make the PPT of all ships equal to the longest allied PPT on the field (in the same way that the speed of the fleet is the speed of the slowest ship in it).
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 11:54:06 AM by Sordid »
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Megas

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Re: Complaints about CR and game design
« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2021, 09:46:05 AM »

I agree that being kited by the AI is about the most unfun thing that can happen in a game, but surely that would be better solved by just making the AI not kite the player? The dev can do that. That's fully within his power. IIRC, cowardly AI only started being a problem in version 0.8.
Then enemy fleets got ridiculously large starting at 0.9a, either 100+ small ships in 0.9a or 10 or so capitals and rest cruisers in 0.9.1a.  While PPT times stayed mostly unchanged since 0.6.xa, when the biggest fleet back then was equivalent to a 200k bounty.

And now 0.9.5a adds officer spam on top of that!

I recently encountered a 250+k bounty with six capitals.  It appears capital spam is alive and well today too.

P.S.  Yes, cowardly AI began in earnest in 0.8a, and has stayed like that since.  It might have been toned down a bit since, but not enough to matter.  There might have been some work with cowardly AI in 0.7.2a.  0.7.1a was the last release with brave, macho enemy AI.  Today, AI would rather win by stalling until heat death on both sides.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 09:51:19 AM by Megas »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Complaints about CR and game design
« Reply #66 on: April 03, 2021, 10:12:08 AM »

I think a moderate across the board increase in PPT would be the way to go if the end game fleet sizes are here to stay.
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Megas

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Re: Complaints about CR and game design
« Reply #67 on: April 03, 2021, 10:32:12 AM »

I think a moderate across the board increase in PPT would be the way to go if the end game fleet sizes are here to stay.
Similarly, bring back 500 map size, or even go bigger like 600 or 800.  In old releases, 500 was enough to deploy all (when fleets were not so bloated).  Now, capital spam fights at 300 size are like Star Control 2 SuperMelee or Mortal Kombat endurance fights.  400 gives a bit more room, but still not enough for glorious deploy all battles of old.

Alternatively, lock the size at 400 (or a bit bigger like 500) and remove map size from in-game game settings.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Complaints about CR and game design
« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2021, 11:31:26 AM »

Currently, with the new capture mechanics, deployment caps at 240 DP for both sides.  If you get 2 comm relays while starting with 160 DP, you've reached maximum deployment of 240 - it doesn't go over that.  Similarly, the larger side cannot go over 240 DP, despite capturing locations - it also is capped at the same value.  So the full battle space deployment is 480 - quite close to the old style 500 DP.  So true maximum deployment is 120% of listed.   The difference being there are actual points in space to take if you want even deployment at 240 DP.  In 0.9.1a, you had 200 DP versus 300 DP and there was nothing you could do about it (other than blow up ships, which meant it slowly evened up towards the end - but by that point, you'd already pretty much won).

Alex has stated that a horizontal distribution of capture points at the mid-line is a bug and that he didn't intend that.  It sounds like he intended for both sides to have easier access to half the capture points, so my guess is simply including a fast ship, not necessarily a fully speed optimized SO UI Afflictor moving in phase space, should still get you to 200-240 DP early in the round.  If you're forced back and those points become captured, then you don't have has much DP for reinforcements.  Gives a choice as to whether it is better to defend a point in space, or simply hug the corner (which is tactically the superior position, since it prevents enemies from coming from 2 sides).  It'll be interesting to see how the positioning of those points affects people's take on the deployment mechanics in the coming "warm"-fix patches.  If people can regularly deploy 240 DP versus 240 DP, it might not matter how many officers the other side has, except later in the match depending on whether you've pushed "forward" or not.

If 500 DP was chosen for playability on older machines, then, I can see why the current maximum battle size by default is 400, since it in principle allows up to 480 in truth.
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Thaago

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Re: Complaints about CR and game design
« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2021, 11:36:12 AM »

One thing that also happened this version is that the damage boosters available to the player through skills are larger while defensive skills stayed roughly the same, so fights go quite a bit faster. Its pretty dependent on game stage though - early game they are a lot faster (because energy weapon mastery, full 10% from L1L, and woflpack tactics), and late game they are moderately faster (because maxed range specialization), but mid game is about the same as there isn't anything really huge for mid range cruisers.

Currently, with the new capture mechanics, deployment caps at 240 DP for both sides.  If you get 2 comm relays while starting with 160 DP, you've reached maximum deployment of 240 - it doesn't go over that.  Similarly, the larger side cannot go over 240 DP, despite capturing locations - it also is capped at the same value.  So the full battle space deployment is 480 - quite close to the old style 500 DP.  So true maximum deployment is 120% of listed.   The difference being there are actual points in space to take if you want even deployment at 240 DP.  In 0.9.1a, you had 200 DP versus 300 DP and there was nothing you could do about it (other than blow up ships, which meant it slowly evened up towards the end - but by that point, you'd already pretty much won).

Alex has stated that a horizontal distribution of capture points at the mid-line is a bug and that he didn't intend that.  It sounds like he intended for both sides to have easier access to half the capture points, so my guess is simply including a fast ship, not necessarily a fully speed optimized SO UI Afflictor moving in phase space, should still get you to 200-240 DP early in the round.  If you're forced back and those points become captured, then you don't have has much DP for reinforcements.  Gives a choice as to whether it is better to defend a point in space, or simply hug the corner (which is tactically the superior position, since it prevents enemies from coming from 2 sides).  It'll be interesting to see how the positioning of those points affects people's take on the deployment mechanics in the coming "warm"-fix patches.  If people can regularly deploy 240 DP versus 240 DP, it might not matter how many officers the other side has, except later in the match depending on whether you've pushed "forward" or not.

If 500 DP was chosen for playability on older machines, then, I can see why the current maximum battle size by default is 400, since it in principle allows up to 480 in truth.

I'm just using a wolf and lasher with Unstable Injector and they are fast enough to grab a capture point each on most maps, so I can confirm a high performance speedster isn't required, just something reasonable. Also, good to know that the enemy can't go over 240 even with points, that came up earlier and I wasn't sure.
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Sordid

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Re: Complaints about CR and game design
« Reply #70 on: April 03, 2021, 12:17:59 PM »

I'm just using a wolf and lasher with Unstable Injector and they are fast enough to grab a capture point each on most maps, so I can confirm a high performance speedster isn't required, just something reasonable.

I thought you said you don't do the frigate dance.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Complaints about CR and game design
« Reply #71 on: April 03, 2021, 12:49:23 PM »

I'm just using a wolf and lasher with Unstable Injector and they are fast enough to grab a capture point each on most maps, so I can confirm a high performance speedster isn't required, just something reasonable.

I thought you said you don't do the frigate dance.

Not sure how what he's described is a dance.  And even if it was, isn't that like most of the combat game?  Maneuver to better position?

He moves forward.  Takes point.  Didn't say anything about retreat.  Plus, you keep saying like dancing is a bad thing.  In my experience ballroom dance is quite fun.

I mean, if that is a "dance" which you consider bad, what is your opinion on Starsector combat movement in general?  50% of combat is closer so you can shoot, running up hard and soft flux, then backing off to vent.  Advance and retreat.  Move to flank to prevent shields from covering all attacks at once.  Is that "dance" somehow fundamentally different from the larger scale "advance" to a point and "move back" if overwhelmed?  What, fundamentally is the difference?
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Sordid

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Re: Complaints about CR and game design
« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2021, 01:16:52 PM »

what is your opinion on Starsector combat movement in general?

Rubberbandy and unresponsive. That's not really what this thread (or your question) is about, but I'm not going to pass up an opportunity to complain.

Quote
50% of combat is closer so you can shoot, running up hard and soft flux, then backing off to vent.  Advance and retreat.  Move to flank to prevent shields from covering all attacks at once.  Is that "dance" somehow fundamentally different from the larger scale "advance" to a point and "move back" if overwhelmed?  What, fundamentally is the difference?

The difference is that there's a lot more factors to consider in combat. Yes, fundamentally it does boil down to "advance to shoot, retreat when threatened". But when it comes to answering the question "should I advance and attack?", the answer requires quickly assessing the current situation, which changes from battle to battle and from moment to moment. "Alright, there's half a dozen ships nearby, and I want to attack that cruiser that's currently having a flux fight with one of my own. My flux is low, so I'm good on that front. That bomber wing over there seems to be going for someone else, and that other cruiser is backing off to vent after getting hammered, so I don't need to worry about those. There is an unoccupied destroyer nearby, but it has no officer and has already expended all its missiles, so I should be able to dart in for a quick salvo to tip that flux fight in my guy's favor and have enough juice left to win against the destroyer when it comes for me." And then ten seconds later, when the situation's changed, you repeat the process. It's called an OODA loop (observe, orient, decide, act) and it's the heart of what makes combat gameplay fun.

Capping points at the start of a battle, on the other hand, is always the same because the situation is always the same. There's nobody on the field yet, so the answer to the question "should I send fast ships to cap points?" is always "yes". That makes it boring and rote.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 01:35:52 PM by Sordid »
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Megas

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Re: Complaints about CR and game design
« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2021, 01:26:37 PM »

Capping points at the start of a battle, on the other hand, is always the same because the situation is always the same. There's nobody on the field yet, so the answer to the question "should I send fast ships to cap points?" is always "yes". That makes it boring and rote.
Not to mention a drain on CP, although at least it costs 1 CP in recent releases instead of 3 or 4 CP before.  This, plus AI exploitation, are reasons why I prefer no objectives at all.
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Demetrious

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Re: Complaints about CR and game design
« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2021, 01:50:55 PM »

I'm just using a wolf and lasher with Unstable Injector and they are fast enough to grab a capture point each on most maps, so I can confirm a high performance speedster isn't required, just something reasonable.

I thought you said you don't do the frigate dance.

Isn't that more like the frigate grab? Once you get the DP and use it to deploy, you don't have those ships taken away when the capture point is taken back by the enemy, so you just have to get there first with enough spare time to fill the bar.

And that's really the only way to do it without sending the whole fleet to the point, because frigate vs. frigate battles entirely in the AI's hands are indeed nothing but a coward dance. The only real option for making the AI co-ordinate attacks (like a frigate wolfpack, for instance ;D) is manual command micro, which one doesn't have the command points for. An "assault" order tends to result in frigates breaking off into 1v1 duels with enemy frigates, which would be okay but is of course ruined by the "officer in every ship" problem. This is trivially easy to rectify - you can adjust maximum officers allowed and even their monthly salary modifiers (and even control how many merc officers the AI uses) in settings.json, and theoretically being able to modify AI behavior via officer personalities should go a long way towards rectifying the 'ol frigate dance. What this does to Alex's intended command point economy I don't know; I don't understand the XP system and how it relates to story points enough to understand if "100% bonus XP" for mentoring officers means the story point expenditure is effectively free...?

Most of the balance issues we've been kicking around since the update dropped are a simple matter of values tuning; in fact we could fix them ourselves by opening a .csv file and editing some values. (The ease with which Starsector can be tweaked is one of its best features.) AI is the one exception to this, as the AI currently lacks functionality to support what Alex is trying to do with frigates/destroyers in the later game. For that matter, the AI doesn't very well support "battle line" formation, which is the source of 80% of dissatisfaction with ships expressly designed for such. I rather suspect that one upgrade could solve both problems; you could call it a "squadron" or something, where ships have a general idea of wanting to fly line-abreast with each other. (EDIT: This would be even simpler if the player was allowed to designate them. Even better, one could make those designations at deployment, and cancel them in combat, but not re-form them. IRL, squadrons tended to break up in big naval fights as chaos reigned and couldn't really reform until afterwards.) Frigates and destroyers would be biased towards wanting to attack the same target (perhaps with a modifier based on their speed, so SO ships will be more confident in their ability to get in - since they also have the ability to get out again-) and the same modifier would encourage cruisers and up to instead pick their own target from the opposite number; aka "battle-line targeting." This would not only solve some issues for every size of ship, but also for individual ships in their weight classes. Assuming the AI already compares own ship speed to nearby hostiles when deciding whether to kite or duke it out, when given a slow low-tech hull with no SO mod, it'll probably come to the right conclusion more often or not.

Another, option would be to simply let players dictate "personalities" to ships even without officers in them; kind of like a "null" officer, with officer personalities over-riding that choice. A "doctrine" setting, if you will. The enemy fleet AI could also use this; setting frigate wolfpacks to "aggressive" when they're dispatched to take a capture point, for instance. You could even let players change the "doctrine" setting on the fly if you want, with officer AI overriding it in various cases. Figuring out the right balance of automation vs. player control here would be the hard part; it'd probably be relatively simple to implement - the aforementioned "squadron" idea, on the other hand, would be another matter.

The difference is that there's a lot more factors to consider in combat. Yes, fundamentally it does boil down to "advance to shoot, retreat when threatened". But when it comes to answering the question "should I advance and attack?", the answer requires quickly assessing the current situation, which changes from battle to battle and from moment to moment. "Alright, there's half a dozen ships nearby, and I want to attack that cruiser that's currently having a flux fight with one of my own. My flux is low, so I'm good on that front. That bomber wing over there seems to be going for someone else, and that other cruiser is backing off to vent after getting hammered, so I don't need to worry about those. There is an unoccupied destroyer nearby, but it has no officer and has already expended all its missiles, so I should be able to dart in for a quick salvo to tip that flux fight in my guy's favor and have enough juice left to win against the destroyer when it comes for me."

This is a phenomenal summation of why AI for a game like Starsector must be a nightmare to design - every new possible maxima increases complexity by an order of magnitude. It's nigh exponential. Fortunately we don't need the AI to be "can duel with players" good; the player has enough problems being the only intelligent person (literally) on the battlefield. It even fits lore-wise; anyone who can go and found three or four new colonies, given the state of the sector post-collapse, must have potential comparable to the Lion of Sindria himself. The AI only needs to fight, well, itself most of the time; for the same reason the player is obligated to take more than his flagship around; numbers matter. The escort AI is actually good; I tried using it to create "wolfpacks" and it didn't work because the escort AI properly escorts; covering its charge's tail and flanks and consistently placing itself to block and run off any pesky destroyers looking to ram Reapers up one's tailpipe. It's constraining, for sure, but it's reliable, and really, that's all you need. So much of real-world military affairs boils down to doctrine because even though it can be constraining, it's predictable; and you can plan for and around the limitations of it much easier than you can try to control the chaos of battle in the midst of it (which is more or less accurately represented by having limited command points.)

"Fixing the AI" is impossible, but making it suitable for gameplay dynamics desired, I think that's very doable. Not easy, it never is, but definitely doable. And the simpler the adjustment, the more doable it'd be.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 01:57:01 PM by Demetrious »
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