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Author Topic: Derelict Contingent  (Read 12027 times)

SCC

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Derelict Contingent
« on: March 30, 2021, 12:15:32 PM »


I can't use the version closer to the original meme, because it would be bypassing profanity filter.

            Derelict Contingent skill offers 15% chance to reduce incoming damage to hull to 10%. This is pretty good, but you don't even know how. It also offers a few other scaling bonuses: -10% crew casualties per d-mod (actually useful, because hull tanking is what those ships are going to be doing), +3% max CR and, if the ship doesn't have any shields, it also gets +5% more residual armour. Last one helps, but first let's tackle the chance to reduce damage.

Let's begin with some math...
15% chance to reduce damage to hull to 10% results in average reduction to 0,865, results in approximately 16% more hull points.
30% chance to reduce damage to hull to 10% results in average reduction to 0,73, results in approximately 37% more hull points.
45% chance to reduce damage results in 0,595 average damage received, which is like having 68% more hull points.
60% chance to reduce damage results in 0,46 average damage received, which is like having 117% more hull points.
75% chance to reduce damage makes you take only 0,325 of the damage on average, which effectively gives you 208% more hull points.

            Yeah, Derelict Contingent turns 5 d-mod, officered ships from junk into nearly impenetrable walls, but it doesn't end there! You also have minimum armour, which is increased by the skill for shieldless ships (mechanics of which I can't reverse engineer) and makes them tankier, than if they used shields. Though that point might not actually matter, thanks to Impact Mitigation, I'm not sure how IM and residual armour interact now.
CR over 70% offers another damage reduction, admittedly small, but at 5 d-mods it's +15%. You can get another 15% from Crew Training, but that depends on the size of your fleet. That makes the ship have effectively 224% to 242% more hull.


            And then there are officer skills. Since Derelict Contingent requires officers to get all these effects, this is a non-issue for 8+ DC ships. What skills will come in useful here? Impact Mitigation increases armour value for damage reduction calculation by 150 points, which used to apply to residual armour as well and probably applies to it still, so any damage of hit strength below 150 (anything weaker than Assault Chaingun) has its damage reduced to a half or less. At this point, my 5 d-mod Enforcer with compromised armour and 10 200 HP managed to sustain approximately 80 000 damage from Assault Chaingun (eight times the stated hull durability!).
            And then there's Damage Control, which simply reduces damage done to hull by 25%. Ignoring residual armour and assuming 85% CR, this allows your 5 d-mod ships to have more or less 322% more hull than it should. Which is to say, I wasn't paying attention and tested that officer using an officer that doesn't have Damage Control, so it could have tanked 104 000 damage from ACG before dying, if I remembered to get a proper skill mix.

WARNING: APPROXIMATION ABOUND FROM NOW ON

            Using all the dirty tricks, I got following results from testing: I tested that Enforcer and came with the 104k hull number as approximately what it gets against ACG-strength weapons, or more than 10 times the stated hull points. Then I tested a Venture against ACG as well, and the result was approximately 483 718 effective hull points against ACG, or 28 more times than its stated HP of 17 000. Admittedly, I picked a Venture that has both armour and hull intact, so ymmv. But I thought that no one would use ACG to crack Ventures, so I decided to switch to Heavy Blaster testing, and it sadly wasn't as good. Against that, that Venture had only ~162 679 HP. Tripling the hit strength triples your damage output, makes sense in this situation. It's still nine and a half times the stated Venture HP.


            Then I thought like being silly, so I grabbed militarised subsystems, assault package (which increases hull integrity by 10% and armour by 5%, and increases flux by 10%, but that's not important right now) and Auxiliary Support (if a single Venture is the only militarised ship in your fleet, then it receives +300% bonus from assault or escort package). That Venture had 2024 armour and 21 000 hull. I decided not to even bother with ACGs and use only Heavy Blasters in testing, and against them, the effective HP against HBs was 278 515, 13 times as much as stated!


            Besides making ships incredibly tough, this skill has another downside: it means that for low-tech, pristine ships are the worst ships. 5 d-mod ship, even with compromised structure, armour and hull, is still going to be way more durable than a pristine ship.

            How durable can be an Onslaught with 5 d-mods? Enough to survive two and a half minute of constant barrage of missiles and projectiles from Remnants. The only reason it can't kill them is because it can't keep up with them (and, of course, the famous flanking vulnerability of Onslaught)
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Derelict Contingent
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2021, 12:35:50 PM »

I kind of don't want to try this so I am not sad when it gets horribly nerfed.
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TaLaR

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Re: Derelict Contingent
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2021, 12:45:00 PM »

I kind of don't want to try this so I am not sad when it gets horribly nerfed.

Yep, same here. It's just too backwards compared to how rest of the game plays. A ship with exactly 5-dmods, which don't affect hull or armor becomes the best.
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Sutopia

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Re: Derelict Contingent
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2021, 02:43:16 PM »

I would say making it not chance based and a constant 15% reduced damage per D stacking up to 4 times is good enough. (2.5x effective hp)
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Warnoise

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Re: Derelict Contingent
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2021, 05:25:54 PM »

Yeah become hard to kill but that's it. You end up having a flying brick if wall that eats damage without doing damage (since it's so slow it will just get flanked even by cruisers). I think this skill is only useful when you are lucky enough to have d-mods that don't effect in-battle stats.
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Morkul

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Re: Derelict Contingent
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2021, 06:28:52 PM »

You can get another 15% from Crew Training, but that depends on the size of your fleet.
Crew Training CAN give you 15% Combat Readiness at beast and that CAN give you at most -10% damage taken. As soon as your combat readiness hits 70% it's back to 0%.


Impact Mitigation increases armour value for damage reduction calculation by 150 points, which used to apply to residual armour as well and probably applies to it still, so any damage of hit strength below 150 (anything weaker than Assault Chaingun) has its damage reduced to a half or less.
Are you that armour affect hull?  Just curious since I always calculated with bonuses like that not affecting hull damage.

Derelict Contingent are fun to play around with but there one huge problem, at least that I tested it.  As soon as my ship start taking hull damage I get a lot of disabled weapons and engines.  And even with reduced crew loss you are going to loose a lot of crew when hull is tarting to take damage.

Derelict Contingent can be really good BUT once you are down to hull you can loose your ships really fast if you are unlucky. Remember there is still a 25% chance that you take 100% damage.
 




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SCC

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Re: Derelict Contingent
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2021, 11:28:57 PM »

Yeah become hard to kill but that's it. You end up having a flying brick if wall that eats damage without doing damage (since it's so slow it will just get flanked even by cruisers). I think this skill is only useful when you are lucky enough to have d-mods that don't effect in-battle stats.
That's no different to just playing regular low-tech, isn't it?
Crew Training CAN give you 15% Combat Readiness at beast and that CAN give you at most -10% damage taken. As soon as your combat readiness hits 70% it's back to 0%.
At that point, enemies are probably burning through their CR, too. Bonus from high CR isn't that high either way.

Quote
Are you that armour affect hull?  Just curious since I always calculated with bonuses like that not affecting hull damage.

Derelict Contingent are fun to play around with but there one huge problem, at least that I tested it.  As soon as my ship start taking hull damage I get a lot of disabled weapons and engines.  And even with reduced crew loss you are going to loose a lot of crew when hull is tarting to take damage.

Derelict Contingent can be really good BUT once you are down to hull you can loose your ships really fast if you are unlucky. Remember there is still a 25% chance that you take 100% damage.
 
Impact Mitigation used to help with hull tanking by boosting residual armour to 150. I don't know if it still does that.
As for weapons and engines: damage is reduced before it gets to engines and weapons, meaning they are ridiculously tough. I could take a reaper on the engines and none would go out.
And the RNG: yes, there's a chance you will take full damage. However, there's an even greater chance you will take only 10%. The chances to destroy an Enforcer (with 5 d-mods and an officer with no skills) with just 3 reapers is about 1,6%. On average, it would take about 8 of them. Pretty quickly it stops being about luck and it all becomes statistics.

Morkul

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Re: Derelict Contingent
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2021, 01:03:05 AM »

At that point, enemies are probably burning through their CR, too. Bonus from high CR isn't that high either way.
Yes but there is never a 15% boost only 10%, at best. If you are calculating with

Quote
Impact Mitigation used to help with hull tanking by boosting residual armour to 150. I don't know if it still does that.
I know you get 5% of armour value as "Hull Armour" But guides like this one: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=12268.0 are mentioning Impact Mitigation in their armour damage calculations but not in their hull damage.  That why I asked about it. Personally I have no clue how it works but it would be nice to know.


Quote
As for weapons and engines: damage is reduced before it gets to engines and weapons, meaning they are ridiculously tough. I could take a reaper on the engines and none would go out.
And the RNG: yes, there's a chance you will take full damage. However, there's an even greater chance you will take only 10%. The chances to destroy an Enforcer (with 5 d-mods and an officer with no skills) with just 3 reapers is about 1,6%. On average, it would take about 8 of them. Pretty quickly it stops being about luck and it all becomes statistics.

Thing is that I have 3 Ventures in my current fleet. That is a base of 1250 armour and 10k hull.  But with some hull mods the best I one have:  1928 armour and 19450 Hull and that is not showing the bonuses from Auxiliary Support that I  can use since Ventures is a civilian hull. One of the things not displayed are the +100% on the +25% (50%?) hull integrity that Assault Package gives.

Anyhow as soon as they go down to hull I constantly get weapon and engines disabled. But yes Derelict Contingent are good but there is quite bad drawbacks for something you want to rely on to 100%.  Just because the maths outside the game indicates one thing it might not always work that way in game.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 01:05:19 AM by Morkul »
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SCC

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Re: Derelict Contingent
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2021, 11:47:44 AM »

Yes but there is never a 15% boost only 10%, at best. If you are calculating with
As I said, it depends on the size of your fleet.

I know you get 5% of armour value as "Hull Armour" But guides like this one: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=12268.0 are mentioning Impact Mitigation in their armour damage calculations but not in their hull damage.  That why I asked about it. Personally I have no clue how it works but it would be nice to know.
This thread is about 0.9.1, which is why I mention IM, but can't say if it still applies.


Anyhow as soon as they go down to hull I constantly get weapon and engines disabled. But yes Derelict Contingent are good but there is quite bad drawbacks for something you want to rely on to 100%.  Just because the maths outside the game indicates one thing it might not always work that way in game.
In my experience, it takes huge lots of burst damage (several autopulses, reapers, the like, or ion pulsers) to get weapons or engines offline.
And you got the reason why I do this backwards. It's not that I mathed Derelict Contingent out and went to test it next, no. I first made it work in the game to incredible results, then took to math to understand just what made those ships tanky like, for example, this:

Alex

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Re: Derelict Contingent
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2021, 12:15:15 PM »

(... it may just be possible that this is a bit much...)
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Thaago

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Re: Derelict Contingent
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2021, 12:21:56 PM »

Quick, everyone get in your playtime with it when you can! The nerfhammer approaches! All flee its wrath!!
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Derelict Contingent
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2021, 01:36:53 PM »

I haven't used Derelict Contingent myself, but from fighting high level derelict bounties, it's really unfun to fight. You end up with these situations where the enemy can't fight back or do anything but still take like a whole minute to kill. Having to throw so much ordnance into a target that's ioned, flamed out, completely disabled, and just won't die, isn't fun. Cruisers tanking like 10 doom mines and 20 antimatter shots on bare hull is crazy.
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Goumindong

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Re: Derelict Contingent
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2021, 05:17:05 PM »

Heavily armored DL ships are pretty unfun to fight. I would probably at the least remove that skill from enemy commanders.

That being said the biggest weakness of a DL fleet is that you have to acquire the DL capable ships. If you find a paragon/onslaught and it doesn't have 5 D-mods you have to lose a Ship 2-3 times without also losing the fight. Which can kind of be an issue.
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Morkul

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Re: Derelict Contingent
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2021, 09:50:23 PM »

Think that video show my point quite good.  Once all armour is gone about 50% of the hits take out a weapon.  This is really annoying with burst weapons that can make 3-4 thinks go off line in one burst.

But after that the video do not show much on how this plays out in a reat battle.

You uses between 9 and 22 missiles with an average of 14,2 on each ship. 

In real battle same ship but with shields can take 3-4 of those missiles without taking damage vent and take another 3-4 and so on.  Yes you might get in a hit or two while the ship is venting but in the end shielded ship will be able to take at least the same amount of damage.  Just that "retread vent and attack again" cycle is really hard to simulate or do the maths on in a simulated battle like this.

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Warnoise

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Re: Derelict Contingent
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2021, 01:52:26 AM »

Let's just replace that skill all over by another skill that adds extra % armor to low tech ships in your fleet
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