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Author Topic: this is the greatest game ever made  (Read 6425 times)

Steven Shi

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Re: this is the greatest game ever made
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2021, 04:31:19 PM »

Good aesthetic doesn't come down to 2D or 3D. Had Alex chose to make SS out of homeworld's engine back then, none of us would have thought a 2D sprite version would be as good. Personally, I couldn't stand the contrived indie 16bit graphic design these days when the artist could easily have gone with something else. 
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Flying Dice

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Re: this is the greatest game ever made
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2021, 05:40:56 AM »

That's, like, your opinion, man.

Also, you genuinely don't have a clue what you're talking about. 2D spritework requires a lot less work, and in particular doesn't run into the issue 3D modeling has of requiring multiple experienced specialists to produce art that's functional (never mind looking good). It makes physics easier, it reduces the entry cost for the artwork if the dev doesn't already have the programs they need, it's easier to preview and iterate art since you don't need to run it in engine, and on and on.

What all of that means is that far less time gets spent on art, which means more man-hours for design, coding, and QA testing. For a small-team project spritework is objectively the superior choice because it's more economical, easier to make it look good, and frees up more time for the really important considerations. That's why so many indie games are 2D. As one more kicker, it makes modding far easier. It's all the same considerations as making a game in ASCII except you don't have to worry about plebs crying about not being able to understand the visuals.

A game like this with 3D movement and models would not get made in the first place by a solo dev or small team because of the expertise and time required. Relic wasn't just Garden and Moloney when they made Homeworld, they were a full studio with a dedicated art department, and the dev time for just a linear campaign and a few multiplayer maps took more than two years. Their core leadership was 4x the size of the entire dev team for Starsector, they were working on a game with much smaller scope, and they still took several years to build it with a complete studio.

If Alex was trying to make 3D Starsector we'd probably still be on a single star system with twenty ship models, there would be almost no modding community, and we'd be lucky to have that. Look at 3D space games today, all the modern ones that don't have a massive budget and studio behind them are either almost identical to what we had twenty years ago or have almost no content because the time and money was spend on decent 3D models.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 05:43:49 AM by Flying Dice »
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DancingMonkey

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Re: this is the greatest game ever made
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2021, 02:46:29 PM »

Also, you genuinely don't have a clue what you're talking about. 2D spritework requires a lot less work

Depends on a lot of things but 2d sprites can be a lot of work.

In a game like starsector 2d sprites is a lot less work but if you had something like a 2d fighting game every action having many frames each requiring someone to draw them each can really add up.
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Linnis

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Re: this is the greatest game ever made
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2021, 03:56:36 PM »

Also, you genuinely don't have a clue what you're talking about. 2D spritework requires a lot less work

Depends on a lot of things but 2d sprites can be a lot of work.

In a game like starsector 2d sprites is a lot less work but if you had something like a 2d fighting game every action having many frames each requiring someone to draw them each can really add up.

If we talk about averages them 3D is more work than 2D. Making an argument for argument sake is stupid. I can but more work in a 2D sprite than DaVinci  spent painting the Monalisa, but that don't say anything.

The whole point of people saying 2D is better than 3D in terms of visuals, most of the time they are referring to cohesion and effectiveness of graphics working together with gameplay and immersion.

3D games that look amazing is made by dozens and sometimes hundreds of people, thoes individuals have their own styles and when forced to work together on one style often losses in cohesion occor that hamper the visual feel of the end product. Think Diablo 2 vs Diablo 3, vanilla starsector vs every ship in a fleet from a different mod.

This is why often 2D art feels better than 3D Art.
But some people just condense this topic to "2D is better than 3D and my personal opinion is fact"

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MesoTroniK

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Re: this is the greatest game ever made
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2021, 04:08:04 PM »

Good quality 2d art is also nearly immortal and timeless. While today's next-gen "photo real" 3d graphics end up looking like an antique quite quickly.

Linnis

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Re: this is the greatest game ever made
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2021, 07:06:23 PM »

Good quality 2d art is also nearly immortal and timeless. While today's next-gen "photo real" 3d graphics end up looking like an antique quite quickly.

"Good quality art is nearly immortal and timeless." Fixed it for ya.
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Grievous69

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Re: this is the greatest game ever made
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2021, 11:32:42 PM »

Good quality 2d art is also nearly immortal and timeless. While today's next-gen "photo real" 3d graphics end up looking like an antique quite quickly.

"Good quality art is nearly immortal and timeless." Fixed it for ya.
Yeah I really don't get this hate for 3d, it can look great and be timeless if it has a unique art style (cell shading for example), while 2d can look horrible if done wrong. The point is, don't do realistic art styles unless you're filthy rich yet even then it will get outdated by something 3 years after.
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Zelnik

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Re: this is the greatest game ever made
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2021, 11:02:41 AM »

It's a good game

When it's finished it will likely be a great game

But it's not the greatest game, that still is held by Star Control 2.

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sector_terror

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Re: this is the greatest game ever made
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2021, 11:55:10 AM »

How'd this get into talking about animation and model work? Starsector isn't a high graphics kind of game. It' be like making it the premse discussion in a 4x game. Presentation is important but it's more about consistency and readability.
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Kakroom

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Re: this is the greatest game ever made
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2021, 11:44:44 AM »

Presentation is important but it's more about consistency and readability.

Tomato, tomato?
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imperialus

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Re: this is the greatest game ever made
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2021, 06:14:22 PM »

It's a good game

When it's finished it will likely be a great game

But it's not the greatest game, that still is held by Star Control 2.

Masters of Magic says "Thems fightin words"
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Zelnik

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Re: this is the greatest game ever made
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2021, 02:45:43 PM »

Masters of magic can go spin on it.

Frungi is the sport of kings.
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Locklave

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Re: this is the greatest game ever made
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2021, 01:53:10 AM »

This game will be a cult classic like Master of Orion 2. It's got all the elements and people can argue over ship loadouts which I think is a key to that.
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