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[Warnoise]

I'm still giggling at the assumption that putting pressure on a small developer is going to lead to 'hiring another full-time junior dev @ $60-80k/yr' vs. 'throwing a few more bucks at David + mmmaybe hiring a part-time $18k/yr community manager, and making some minor content updates every three months'.

There's a lot that Alex could do to placate this kind of sentiment with busywork updates that would actually increase the total dev time and make finishing the project more precarious. Star Citizen has raked in an absolute buttload of cash by building the infrastructure for making those kinds of trivial, frequent updates over a bare skeleton of actual development - sometimes no development; count the ships that have been sold to players and still can't be flown - and there are single Star Citizen ship purchases that handily outstrip the amount everybody even reading this thread has paid Alex for Starsector.

Which game would you rather play?

To be honest taking a scam as an example doesn't really help the case you're making.

This update is taking more than 2 years. I personally think Alex is taking his time with this update maybe for personal reasons that he doesn't talk about, but I refuse to believe that an update of a game like starsector would take more than 1 year unless Alex is adding some totally new mechanics that require tons of work or developing some military grade AI for this update.

[Zelnik]

Rumor has it that Alex has issues with knowing "when it's done enough to release" and "Working on superfluous aspects of the game while more important things need doing."

I don't think anyone can argue that he isn't talented, though many mod makers are demonstrating that they have more skill at it then he does. He doesn't have discipline, which comes with working under a deadline.

We will eventually get a release, it will probably not be for another year. There will be people who still religiously defend him and the game but it's pretty clear that if he worked on any real project for any company he would be fired within a year for failing to meet basic deadlines.

If you need reference to what I am saying, take a look at the "In production" list of changes. All of those are completed, done, fixed, and integrated...LOTS of them would make Starsector 100% better game on every possible level.

but he doesn't release it because he is busy fiddling with a new graphical effect and showing it on twitter.


meanwhile, Modders have taken his game and demonstrated that they can not only make more interesting factions, but integrate into the game things Alex never even dreamed.  Transforming mecha fighters? DONE. Super beam cannons that can turn ships to puff of dust? DONE.  Activating and linking all of the jump gates? DONE.  Terraforming worlds? DONE.  Creating a fleet specific to the player and his own faction? DONE.  Sugoi anime waifus? DONE. Giant ships made of junk stapled together with raider hopes and dreams? DONE.

I am sure there are more things that would blow your mind, but sorry to say it, Alex needs a boss to tell him what to prioritize, because it's clear he can't prioritize things himself.

[devurandom]

Rumor has it that Alex has issues with knowing "when it's done enough to release" and "Working on superfluous aspects of the game while more important things need doing."

I don't think anyone can argue that he isn't talented, though many mod makers are demonstrating that they have more skill at it then he does. He doesn't have discipline, which comes with working under a deadline.

We will eventually get a release, it will probably not be for another year. There will be people who still religiously defend him and the game but it's pretty clear that if he worked on any real project for any company he would be fired within a year for failing to meet basic deadlines.

If you need reference to what I am saying, take a look at the "In production" list of changes. All of those are completed, done, fixed, and integrated...LOTS of them would make Starsector 100% better game on every possible level.

but he doesn't release it because he is busy fiddling with a new graphical effect and showing it on twitter.

The in production changes are not released because playtesting is not done. "I have this working in a development branch." is *not* equivalent to being production ready. Confusing it for such is the reason we have so many buggy releases in the industry. There is a saying in programming; implementing the feature is only 20% of the work.

meanwhile, Modders have taken his game and demonstrated that they can not only make more interesting factions, but integrate into the game things Alex never even dreamed.  Transforming mecha fighters? DONE. Super beam cannons that can turn ships to puff of dust? DONE.  Activating and linking all of the jump gates? DONE.  Terraforming worlds? DONE.  Creating a fleet specific to the player and his own faction? DONE.  Sugoi anime waifus? DONE. Giant ships made of junk stapled together with raider hopes and dreams? DONE.

Adding a new subsystem to a game is substantially more difficult than adding a content pack. There is a reason modern games *love* to churn out DLC faction packs and such, it's comparatively easy. Fitting a new system into an established application? That is a serious undertaking. Reworking an existing system without breaking anything is even harder.

Transforming mecha fighters? DONE.

Diable has been around for years, it wasn't done overnight either.

Super beam cannons that can turn ships to puff of dust? DONE.

The tachyon lance is in vanilla.

Terraforming worlds? DONE.

Terraforming is dead simple to implement because Alex designed a very flexible API. The hard part of adding a feature like that is polish, and frankly there is a reason I continue to avoid terraforming mods.

Creating a fleet specific to the player and his own faction? DONE.

Nex is older than the colony update, and the colony update was a *massive* improvement over old Nex. Histidine does does some really cool stuff, but he didn't implement it overnight and it is built on (shockingly) the vanilla APIs.

Sugoi anime waifus? DONE.

Pirating anime off the internet is not a technical achievement.

I seriously doubt Alex is a genius or the best game developer ever, but your criticisms range from false to outright ridiculous.

[Harmful Mechanic]

To be honest taking a scam as an example doesn't really help the case you're making.

The case I'm making is that scammy behavior (frequent minor updates) is what the average gamer wants, because they're only tangentially interested in the game as a game vs. the game as a source of validation and attention.

Regular balance updates with a new ship or two, or the occasional weapon, would be relatively easy to pump out. They'd just slow down work on the game's actual systems.

I refuse to believe that an update of a game like starsector would take more than 1 year unless Alex is adding some totally new mechanics that require tons of work

...should we tell him?

[FooF]

Where the argument "I'm mad Alex is taking so long" falls apart is that none of us, I do mean none of us, actually have all that much invested in the game. I'm in for $10 ($15?). Some people are in for a little more. A few people might have bought it for other people so there's a small multiplier. But it's not like I shelled out $60.

If we've spent more than a few hours playing the game, we've already gotten our money's worth. If Alex doesn't release another update ever, I think I've still gotten more playtime/dollar from Starsector than any other game I've played or maybe ever will play. I've paid more going to lunch then I have this game that I've literally played over a thousand hours.

The point being, if you're in for so little, your complaint can't justifiably be all that big. Now, Star Citizen, if you're in for thousands and thousands of dollars...? Yes, then you have a reason to be justifiably upset if what is delivered isn't up to snuff.

But I digress. As they say in most sports, "Winning cures about every ill." Once the patch is released the doldrums we're facing right now will feel like a distant memory. I'm of the opinion release is March/April so we're just getting antsy.

[Tartiflette]

Regular balance updates with a new ship or two, or the occasional weapon, would be relatively easy to pump out. They'd just slow down work on the game's actual systems.

Iirc one of the reasons Alex does not do "tiny keep-alive updates" of that kind is that they cost him a lot in file hosting bandwidth costs for very little actual sales revenue. Having big updates that can make a splash and generate a lot of new sales was the intended business model.

[sonicfelipemt]

Never seen a game more alive than this one.
I myself even became a modder for this game because it is very easy to add mods to, mod myself and create the perfect version of the game that I want to play on.
There are SO MANY MODS.
People say it's a "small" and "unknown" game, but I never have been more happy when playing a game.
Starsector has become my life. 

[Cyan Leader]

Rumor has it that Alex has issues with knowing "when it's done enough to release" and "Working on superfluous aspects of the game while more important things need doing."

I don't think anyone can argue that he isn't talented, though many mod makers are demonstrating that they have more skill at it then he does. He doesn't have discipline, which comes with working under a deadline.

We will eventually get a release, it will probably not be for another year. There will be people who still religiously defend him and the game but it's pretty clear that if he worked on any real project for any company he would be fired within a year for failing to meet basic deadlines.

If you need reference to what I am saying, take a look at the "In production" list of changes. All of those are completed, done, fixed, and integrated...LOTS of them would make Starsector 100% better game on every possible level.

but he doesn't release it because he is busy fiddling with a new graphical effect and showing it on twitter.


meanwhile, Modders have taken his game and demonstrated that they can not only make more interesting factions, but integrate into the game things Alex never even dreamed.  Transforming mecha fighters? DONE. Super beam cannons that can turn ships to puff of dust? DONE.  Activating and linking all of the jump gates? DONE.  Terraforming worlds? DONE.  Creating a fleet specific to the player and his own faction? DONE.  Sugoi anime waifus? DONE. Giant ships made of junk stapled together with raider hopes and dreams? DONE.

I am sure there are more things that would blow your mind, but sorry to say it, Alex needs a boss to tell him what to prioritize, because it's clear he can't prioritize things himself.

There is so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to start.

though many mod makers are demonstrating that they have more skill at it then he does

Not to be disrespectful to any modders but I don't think any of them think they have developed something "better" than the whole vanilla package. Not to mention that they all depend on the work that Alex has made prior. If what you're saying was true the game wouldn't have many mods in the first place because people would have gone off to create their own games since its so easy to do better than Alex.

He doesn't have discipline, which comes with working under a deadline.

What deadline? We have never been given one. We have always been told straight that the game will be done when it's done. The comparisons to Star Citizen, for example, fall flat because they gave estimates while Alex didn't. There are several projects that worked in a similar way to Starsector such as Terraria or Dwarf Fortress, though the former made the unfortunate mistake of giving deadlines when they couldn't keep it.

We will eventually get a release, it will probably not be for another year.

Highly unlikely considering playtesting has started in some form. Within 6 months would have been a better estimate.

There will be people who still religiously defend him and the game but it's pretty clear that if he worked on any real project for any company he would be fired within a year for failing to meet basic deadlines.

What deadlines?

but he doesn't release it because he is busy fiddling with a new graphical effect and showing it on twitter.

That's an incredibly immature take, no offense. We have known for a while now that the newest update, unlike the previous ones, is heavily focused on story content therefore it's harder to tease new content without directly spoiling it. I bet that Alex wouldn't even have shown off the new weapons if he could have helped it.

[Hiruma Kai]

This update is taking more than 2 years. I personally think Alex is taking his time with this update maybe for personal reasons that he doesn't talk about, but I refuse to believe that an update of a game like starsector would take more than 1 year unless Alex is adding some totally new mechanics that require tons of work or developing some military grade AI for this update.

Why do you think that?  Without some presented analysis it strikes me as an opinion rather than fact.  Why not 1 month?  Why not 10 years? You acknowledge that totally new mechanics or testing heavy work takes more time.  Why can't a large updated take more than 1 year simply due to the amount of content plus new mechanics.  At some point it must be true.  If it takes 6 months for a certain amount of content, twice as much would naively take 1 year, and 4 times would take 2 years.  As far as I can tell, you are merely asking for X amount of content faster rather than 4X amount of content slower.  At the end of the day, you get the same amount after 2 years.  Arguably, possibly more after 2 years with the slower release rate because less time is spent on releasing.

Out of curiosity, what would you expect to be in an update that takes less than 1 year then?  And can you compare and contrast that to the 700+ line patch notes released in October (which generally are the things which are done enough that Alex is positive will make it in to the next release).

We will eventually get a release, it will probably not be for another year. There will be people who still religiously defend him and the game but it's pretty clear that if he worked on any real project for any company he would be fired within a year for failing to meet basic deadlines.

If you need reference to what I am saying, take a look at the "In production" list of changes. All of those are completed, done, fixed, and integrated...LOTS of them would make Starsector 100% better game on every possible level.

Can you explain your time estimates for what the deadlines should be for Starsector?  Realistic ones, not death march requiring deadlines that put some companies out of business because they don't know how to set proper deadlines.  It is one thing to pull a number out of thin air, it is quite another to give concrete, realistic deadlines for the team that you have and work to be done.  I mean you're saying Alex can't meet deadlines, but then don't explain what those deadlines should be and why they are reasonable. I can just as easily state Alex is in fact meeting realistic deadlines.

To make your argument stronger, you could give a breakdown on expected time for feature or change conceptualization/planning, implementation, unit testing and bug fixing, end-to-end quality assurance testing, and then looping back to fixing further bugs and tweaking for play experience.  Alex has in the past tried ideas and then found they don't work out in a fun way for him, which is part of development time.

I'd argue, almost by definition by doing large patches it cuts down on the the amount of end-to-end quality assurance testing and play experience tweaking Alex personally has to do for a given amount of changes.  If he splits a patch in two, then the pushing to production, final testing, and release effort gets doubled.  Balance passes for new mechanics gets doubled.

For me, major releases of Starsector tend to feel like a new game in the same series.  So I can certainly understand Alex wanting to get a feel for all the new systems and tweaks together to get the entire play experience nailed down.  Personally, I've gotten my money's worth out of the game, and the fact the game is easily modded has extended that further.  So, I'm content with the update rate, especially since I bought the game years ago at this point.  Whether the rate of new patches is fast or slow relative to other games doesn't really matter to me. 

If people feel like they haven't gotten their 10-15 dollars worth, then I could see why they might prefer a quicker patch cadence.  However, I just wanted to throw my opinion in, just like everyone else is doing.

[Zelnik]

I see a lot of people just throwing out arguments with stuff like "What deadline?" or "we don't know!"

We actually DO know, he does tell us and show us what he is doing when he does blog posts.


Yes, it's true that things like diable have been around for a while, but we have seen more development progress in diable then in the game itself. If Alex doesn't have something to show for his work in that time compared to a mod maker (who isn't paid at all for his work) then he develops the negative stereotype of not getting things done.

What is a timely manner? Why don't we look at comparable games where some release patches on a weekly basis, some release on a monthly basis, others quarterly, some every 6 months.

For a game like this, I would say one balance and bugfix patch every 6 months would be perfectly fine.

Now, I did make it pretty clear that we -will- be getting an update, and we are not entitled to one either. We paid for what we got, and while other people want more, we have no ultimate say in it. It DOES effect how the game is spread to other people though. I get it that Alex doesn't care about the money either. Kudos to him, it makes him unshackled to his customer and their needs (He has made it very clear that he doesn't respond to customer desires either way, though he has shown INCREDIBLE grace when facing criticism.)

In all honesty, Alex could bin the game, walk away from it with the money he has made and never talk to us again and there would be fuckall we could do about it.

I am also not saying for people to stop defending him (though he doesn't need it).

What I -AM- Saying is that there is a reason why any other development team DO NOT FOLLOW HIS EXAMPLE.

it makes consumers mad, it makes them question your motives, it makes them question your dedication and discipline. Investors would avoid this model because there would be no return.  People who may otherwise love the game would abandon it because readily fixable problems are not dealt with in what could only be described as a reasonable time frame.

I personally like Alex, and what he does. I hate his release schedule and I will -never- stop criticizing it until it changes, which we can pretty easily see CAN be changed. He shows us what he does in twitter posts and blog posts on a regular basis too, so no one can argue that he doesn't show us what he is working on. Some things I can't help but ask "yeah it's nifty but not a priority in the face of the bugs in the game."



 

[sector_terror]

Rumor has it that Alex has issues with knowing "when it's done enough to release" and "Working on superfluous aspects of the game while more important things need doing."

where'd you hear that? I haven't heard anything about that and there is zero indication as to why. The only thing I've heard is Alex really focuses on something and is willing to do into complex crap. It's why people say "oh god don't make him go into the economic system again!"

I don't think anyone can argue that he isn't talented, though many mod makers are demonstrating that they have more skill at it then he does. He doesn't have discipline, which comes with working under a deadline.

I checked his scheduled released and they are pretty consistent. If we see the first release not come by April maybe we can talk, but until then it's been entirely in setup. A deadline also doesn't have anything to do with discipline. It can help it, as well as focus, but Kentaro Miuara's problem(Berserk) is he's a perfectionist. I mean it makes his stuff look gorgeous to pick your poison, but my point is a deadline being the basis behind good discipline is a fallacy.

We will eventually get a release, it will probably not be for another year. There will be people who still religiously defend him and the game but it's pretty clear that if he worked on any real project for any company he would be fired within a year for failing to meet basic deadlines.

Judging by previous updates he's still entirely in line. We have till april that he's passing his previous ranges. I don't defend him "religiously" I was one of the guys at the start of THIS thread willing to answer the question and came to the conclusion that Alex can more than be trusted. If I worked at a company and saw someone who could post updates to his new releases and show considerable work in progress like this and still have a consistent release schedule I'd be quite happy. 2 years for a tiny team of "mostly" 1-2 men(I'll admit im still not clear on that) in re-writing the entire mission coding, officer settings, and a near from-scratch level system? That's impressive. Especially with the art. Reminder: Stellaris, a AAA game developer, re-used art assets heavily in it's newest updates and had to make an entire update to give -some- events their own backgrounds. Alex is doing that by himself and trying not to repeat himself on any quests that aren't repeatable, and it shows. But hey....I guess we really won't be leaving that boat if we fired Miura.

but he doesn't release it because he is busy fiddling with a new graphical effect and showing it on twitter.

You do know those graphics are explicitly the ones on the new enemy ship and secret player ship right? You also remember what I said about Stellaris? Those drawings are going to be used for story missions where he doesn't do what most AAA devs do and re-use assets. Remember that fallacy about deadlines? Sometimes they cause stuff like that.

meanwhile, Modders have taken his game and demonstrated that they can not only make more interesting factions, but integrate into the game things Alex never even dreamed.  Transforming mecha fighters? DONE. Super beam cannons that can turn ships to puff of dust? DONE.  Activating and linking all of the jump gates? DONE.  Terraforming worlds? DONE.  Creating a fleet specific to the player and his own faction? DONE.  Sugoi anime waifus? DONE. Giant ships made of junk stapled together with raider hopes and dreams? DONE.

Okay I might actually have some contention from the community here? I don't find the modding community to be that interesting. I don't any of the new factions added that great and honestly stopped using them. Transforming mecha would just be another fighter; you're discussing pure aestetics. With with the waifus, ship types, etc. Terraforming honestly is a bit weak, I think it's a good thing to not have terraforming, makes you really think about what worlds to use and make hard decisions where to set-up. Jump gates would be....mildly interesting? But eh...

sorry if I kind of picked on you here, you were just the easiest to respond to. I'll sure I'll add someone else later.

[Grievous69]

@Zelnik
Hmmm, while you do make some very questionable claims you do have a point in the end. If it weren't for this precise game, which you pretty much don't have anywhere else for such a low price with an added bonus of hundreds of mods, this model just wouldn't do well. Or in other words, it would probably die off because the dev would lose the revenue from the sales since you'd end up playing a buggy version (mind you very mildly buggy) for ages. Just imagine waiting 2 years for a bug fix, like god damn would that *** people off if it was an average game. And yeah obviously with investors you'd never get away with "eh I'll do it when it's ready" mentality.

So basically if this wasn't such a unique gem it would've died in the void with probably many many more angry customers. The modding community is also very beneficial for this system, although it got pretty big precisely because of the slow update cycle.

[sector_terror]

I see a lot of people just throwing out arguments with stuff like "What deadline?" or "we don't know!"

We actually DO know, he does tell us and show us what he is doing when he does blog posts.

Um....did he? Could you find me where he put a deadline? I haven't seen it. Most of the screenshots could be at any point in development. Right now he could being so the purely tedius crap of re-writing the code for ever missions. That's just repetitive copy/pasting(so to speak) and revision. Hardly worth showing. He could also be actually building the new skill menu properly, who knows.

Yes, it's true that things like diable have been around for a while, but we have seen more development progress in diable then in the game itself. If Alex doesn't have something to show for his work in that time compared to a mod maker (who isn't paid at all for his work) then he develops the negative stereotype of not getting things done.

Okay I thought that was a spellcheck issue. Do you mean the mod that adds a specific faction? Have you just been shilling this whole time? The new update will have a re-worked skill system from scratch, complete re-write every mission to match with a new base function library, write an entire new and rather complex method of gaining mission from entirely scratch(there is little to nothing to build off on this one,) heavily modify every component with the new story point system, build several new ships(admittedly the mod does win in this alone) and re-writes both the AI system and the system for developing both patrol and event fleets entirely. What mod can even remotely come with that kind of package by itself. The big combo mods -maybe- but that's 15+ people.

What is a timely manner? Why don't we look at comparable games where some release patches on a weekly basis, some release on a monthly basis, others quarterly, some every 6 months.

For a game like this, I would say one balance and bugfix patch every 6 months would be perfectly fine.

Okay. I'll do that. I have bee this whole time; I've been mentioning Stellaris. The newest unnamed 2.9 patch still isn't finished and they have been at it since november, and offer less gameplay changes then the current and most previous Starsector updates. It's a good patch that will help performance created by the job system, but that -is- a minor patch on the surface. Federations had a full professional team, and they took a full year to add the federations update, which is actually a bit smaller than what starsectors update's generally have(except .9.1, which game out faster anyway.) That might seem faster, but stellaris re-uses assets. It's a running gag to ask "oh! this was the old X building from 1.X!)" because stellaris had a huge backlog of art they can use. They also are happy to re-use backdrops, art assets, etc. Hell, it took em 6 months to make a new ship type, and they only had to handle a single set of scripted visuals, not have them match up to actual controllable movement.

As for the second part, I disagree. I dont want patches. I respect stellaris and Starsector because they don't do that, they address proper mechanics. Stellaris' tile system underdeveloped and lacking in the ability to customize to empire needs? The nature of it ending up with an advantage to building wide over tall? entirely new system for planet development. The mission system unable to scale meaningfully or properly to the players fleet and taking away control of the pace of the game? New contact system to let you pick missions at your own pace and ability to your fleet's discretion. There is always a chance to improve the game significantly, and I appreciate that Alex sees past what he's made and is willing to do full edits without being afraid to release what he has when needed. I don't want minute little changes to verb form, give me full revision.

Oh as a side, if you look at the new contact system and think "yeah it's nifty but not a priority in the face of the bugs in the game.", then your standard of quality is beyond alien to me.

Now, I did make it pretty clear that we -will- be getting an update, and we are not entitled to one either...[fluff]

I disagree. When you make a promise to others you do owe them at least a full explanation. If Alex -couldn't- finish the game then fine, I'd accept it. But if he gave us cus he was bored or something then no, he'd be going into unethical standard. I think he owes us what he promises to the best of his ability. you spend this and your last entire post(I only not notice your the same person, hilarious) talking about enforcing deadlines, and now you want to back off?

What I -AM- Saying is that there is a reason why any other development team DO NOT FOLLOW HIS EXAMPLE. ... [Fluff] ...People who may otherwise love the game would abandon it because readily fixable problems are not dealt with in what could only be described as a reasonable time frame.

Considering just adding the alliance mechanics in Stellaris alone took a team of people just under a year and Alex is doing that 3 times over(new level system, new function library for missions, entirely new contact system, re-written skill system) I think close to 2 years is a fine time. disagree if you'd like, but you are wrong about the not following example. No Man's sky did it. When No Man's Sky did deadlines with press interviews and publishing information and trailers and the like they got absolutely despised. They then went quiet for 3 months, and just started releasing things with much less interaction and footage, a lot like what this game is going. Suddenly they went from nothing to a massively popular and only mildly flawed game. In fact this kind of consistent active posting and updates would keep fans like me on in a way most can't. I fell off Warframe hard for a reason.

I personally like Alex, and what he does. I hate his release schedule and I will -never- stop criticizing it until it changes, which we can pretty easily see CAN be changed. He shows us what he does in twitter posts and blog posts on a regular basis too, so no one can argue that he doesn't show us what he is working on. Some things I can't help but ask "yeah it's nifty but not a priority in the face of the bugs in the game."

[SCC]

For what it's worth, Starsector used to have more than one major update a year until 0.7.2, then we had to wait a year for 0.8, then another for 0.9, and now more than one and half a year. He didn't take his time until he's earned some money.

Iirc one of the reasons Alex does not do "tiny keep-alive updates" of that kind is that they cost him a lot in file hosting bandwidth costs for very little actual sales revenue. Having big updates that can make a splash and generate a lot of new sales was the intended business model.

I thought it's because Alex cannot really afford to maintain multiple branches, one for development and the other for fixes and patches, without slowing the development of the game.
 

[Harmful Mechanic]

Iirc one of the reasons Alex does not do "tiny keep-alive updates" of that kind is that they cost him a lot in file hosting bandwidth costs for very little actual sales revenue. Having big updates that can make a splash and generate a lot of new sales was the intended business model.

I thought it's because Alex cannot really afford to maintain multiple branches, one for development and the other for fixes and patches, without slowing the development of the game.

It's really both; rapid updates aren't just a matter of putting out the same thing twice as fast, you have to rearrange your whole working process and choose your file hosting around them.

It's easy enough to mimic the appearance of progress, and as we keep seeing, most of the upset customer base doesn't even have internally consistent nonsense standards for development schedules. An unethical developer just looking for cash could easily take money from the sort of people who rage out at the current dev cycle:

for a fraction of the cost of hiring more skilled developers. Not only are they easy to con, but they'll tell you precisely how best to con them.